1 2 Previous Next 65 Replies Latest reply on Sep 13, 2018 9:57 AM by jimveta Go to original post
      • 40. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
        EuroSiti Level 1

        The problem with the "patent" argument is that OpenEXR and CinemaDNG are both open standards, free of licensing fees.

        Some fair points there, but a difference between these open standards and the others mentioned here (in this thread and several other similar threads posted in here during the past 8 years) is that these particular ones were developed by Adobe - or by partners that Adobe are used to collaborate with. Despite being well technically specified and/or recommended long-term storage formats, both Google's WebM container, VP9 video, Opus audio, FLAC audio, FFV1 lossless video, AV1 lossless video, and the MKV container were all developed outside the normal industry community of camera/hardware suppliers.

         

        Of course, Adobe is fully aware that a large number of their customer base would appreciate the option to import and export video in these particular formats. You don't see any of these formats officially supported/implemented in any of the socalled 'professional' tools, not even in the more consumer-oriented software tools like PSE. This can only be explained by a certain level of 'cultural' resistance.

         

        I once again have to stress that formats like MKV, FLAC and FFV1 are professionally recommended formats for long term video and audio storage. The 'there's just no demand among the professionals' argument makes me wonder why these 'professionals' are even relevant in this discussion? A professional photographer or a media bureau probably just uses whatever formats that are supported by the hardware and software they work with. If Adobe only pays attention to the quite closed eco system of hardware manufacturers (who definetely don't care about open standards) and their primary buyers, namely industry professionals (but not the large market of amateurs, professional archivists, small entrepreneurs or hobby users who are also paying Adobe customers as far as I'm aware), then there will obviously never be any 'relevant demand' for long term storage formats... A closed eco system / food chain.

        • 41. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
          EuroSiti Level 1

          https://forums.adobe.com/people/R+Neil+Haugen  skrev

           

          ... though in checking around at NAB, this isn't a format that very many seem at all interested in.

          It has often been mentioned that no cameras uses the MKV container. The newer HTC models do in fact use the MKV specifically for 4k video with "3D" audio. I haven't checked if other camera manufacturers have also begun using MKV for the same purpose, but this is definetely a very good reason to start changing the tune. This particular container limitation is nothing more than a pointless obstacle from a customer perspective... https://www.reddit.com/r/htc/comments/4ma8je/htc_10_4k_video_recording_using_mkv_files/?st =j5h9jzwp&sh=b8faca3c

           

          Google's new AV1 video format is now backed by most of the big players in the software industry (even Adobe!) https://www.xda-developers.com/av1-future-video-codecs-google-hevc/  ... but not by Apple, of course.

          • 42. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
            R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            One ... leetle ... problem with your post. While the HTC10's "official" page leads off about the quality of the camera, it is by device type ... a ... phone.

             

            And I'm guessing it's still in VFR like all other phones ... have you seen any info that would show otherwise?

             

            The built-in problem here is that PrPro is NOT built to support VFR, and apparently they have no intention of doing so. As the HTC probably produces VFR, I doubt they would consider that a "camera" that they needed to support.

             

            Now ... if Arri or RED came out using MKV in CFR, that would be the trigger to get support for MKV.

             

            Neil

            • 43. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
              cybermancer Level 1

              What I don't get is why it can support exporting webm - an open container based on matroska - but not regular matroska. This even comes with support for open audio codecs (vorbis, opus), and adobe media encoder already supported the open vpx.  Why hasn't anyone made a similar free plugin for mkv,  or better yet both?

              • 44. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                Death2DRM

                Pat on the back for HTC for having some common sense.

                Any "professional" who chooses inferior containers that have less features and support fewer codecs cannot call him/herself a professional at all.

                 

                What I'm suspecting is, the majority of these "professionals" go where the big software companies take them, like a bunch of sheep. It's the consumers who end up using the majority of this material who know the pain of using/working with certain containers but of course, it's their voices that remain unheard.

                 

                At the companies I've worked for, we've recruited many developers, most of the best of them were the self-taught, sometimes hobbyist, and some of the worst of them were the recent Comp Sci graduates. Yet it's the latter who are normally considered these... "professionals".

                 

                "I'm just a professional. I'm just a professional. Getting sick and tired of hearing that." (Sorry couldn't resist.)

                • 45. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                  Jim_Simon Level 9

                  Any "professional" who chooses inferior containers

                   

                  We don't always have a choice.  I'd love to use MXF for Cineform and UT, for example, rather than QuickTime and AVI.  But Adobe doesn't offer it.

                  • 46. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                    cbenci Level 1

                    I too would like support for MKV and while we are at it FLAC, in Media Encoder at the very least so I can convert it to another codec.

                     

                    All the arguments that it's not a "professional" codec is my opinion making excuses for it's lack of support by Adobe.

                     

                    Sure, as a day to day codec I wouldn't use it but at times I am supplied footage that is in the mkv format. To be able to work with that footage directly in Premier or After Effects would remove a couple of steps.

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 47. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                      Jim_Simon Level 9

                      All the arguments that it's not a "professional" codec is my opinion making excuses for it's lack of support by Adobe.

                       

                      It's not an excuse, it's an explanation.  Adobe can't add every feature people ask for.  They have to pick and choose.  It's entirely rational for them to choose features that will benefit the majority of editors, rather than a few outliers.  At the moment, MKV has no significant usage in the professional world, the market segment Premiere Pro is designed for.

                       

                      Although, that does seem to be changing.  (The market segment, not the usage of MKV.)  Adobe does at least seem to be veering away from pro use and more into YouTuber territory, with the addition of VR and failure to properly support professional formats like CinemaDNG, RED and Alexa ProRes.

                       

                      So who knows, they may add MKV support before it's truly warranted.

                      • 48. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                        WebOfWebs Level 1

                        Give it a rest already.

                         

                        Not supporting mkv has NOTHING to do with professionalism. Obviously.

                        All the real experts want mkv and more !!!! Supporting another CONTAINER is not difficult (in any department)

                         

                        But i´m sure your wedding videos make you more of an expert than matroska himself.

                         

                        If adobe doesnt bow to the will of the masses, they will go the way of ibm, microsoft, atari, etc.

                         

                        Just out of interest, WHEN adobe caves and does what we paying customers want, will you leave? will you stop being a professional? will you refuse to use mkv?

                        • 49. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                          R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          I asked a team member how many requests they get for various codecs to be added at NAB a year ago. He listed the top 10 or so (by the number of requests filed) ... and they're for various heavy-cam files like CinemaDNG, Arri-RAW, some of the upper RED/Arri/Sony media log formats, a number of intriguing DSLR formats.

                           

                          Matroska/mkv wasn't mentioned. It simply didn't have enough requests to be up there.

                           

                          So I think bowing to the will of the masses isn't in your particular interest. You need a better reason, and that the major archiving houses work heavily with this would be what I would suggest pushing.

                           

                          And very important, get everyone you know to post a feature request for Matroska support!

                           

                          Neil

                           

                          Adobe Bug Report /Feature Request form ... https://www.adobe.com/go/wish

                          (They never respond to postings, but all filed reports are collated and distributed to all relevant managerial types, so they are seen.)

                          • 50. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                            DoctorMu Level 1

                            .....and two years later, this is still being debated? haha

                             

                            I just hopped on here because I was trying to import an mkv also...and realized I could not.  Seriously?  It's a popular format -- so I was shocked just now to learn Adobe doesn't support it.

                             

                            Asking everyone to take the time to go fill out a feature request is a little silly.  Having compatibility with mkv is kinda just common sense.  It's not a feature I expect to be added, it's a feature I expected to have been there years ago.

                            • 51. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                              R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              It's all relative. What to you and your acquaintances, peers, and colleagues might be a common format, is not necessarily one that is common in the general NLE world. In several years, including five straight NAB's in Vegas, and plenty of time talking shop with others there in other spots, I've never once had a person in person mention mkv files. I've spent the odd hour discussing all sorts of things around the Adobe booth, the Black Magic, Avid, you name it booth.

                               

                              That's one of the frustrating things about this program: its user base is very diverse, and a seemingly decent sized sub-set may be (compared to the entire user-base) still a relatively small group.

                               

                              After a few people here extolled the virtues of it, I looked it up online. The information sounds pretty good, and yea, it would be very nice if that was an option. I even put in a feature request for it myself though even if it was supported in PrPro the chances that I'd use it are pretty small.

                               

                              Hence ... the need to get more requests on that collated list. Moaning on here isn't communicating your wishes to the people who develop the program ... that's what the feature/bug reports are for in Adobe practice. I'm supporting your request, not objecting to it, remember that.

                               

                              Neil

                              • 52. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                Jim_Simon Level 9

                                It's a popular format

                                 

                                Not for pros.  No camera uses it.  No standardized delivery formats use it.

                                • 53. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                  Levyimage Level 1
                                  Not for pros.  No camera uses it.  No standardized delivery formats use it.

                                  You must not work Live events at conventions or shows in Las Vegas.

                                   

                                  "Not for pros"

                                  Wrong

                                  I've worked with and know of very notable industry people who've worked with the format medium.

                                   

                                  "No camera uses it"

                                  Wrong

                                  Panasonic Builds Up 4K Cameras for Live, Sports & Remote Broadcast

                                  And more.

                                  Are you a live events camera op?

                                  Otherwise how could you possibly know all options there are out there, on this subject, if you just sit at a desk all day?

                                  You need to be working in the field before making statements like this about what's being used in the field.

                                  This is directed at all of you, in this thread.

                                   

                                  "No standardized delivery formats use it."

                                  Wrong

                                  Look at the column of VARIABLE FRAME RATE

                                  Comparison of video container formats - Wikipedia

                                   

                                  Don't mix apples to oranges by comparing DTS Masters for theater film consumption to internet of things film delivery.

                                   

                                  You really need to stop this crusade of giving outdated and FALSE information Jim.

                                  It's starting to get old.. no pun intended.

                                   

                                  In a theater your video bandwidth is nowhere near as limited or cost prohibitive as it is for over the internet; however, to each consumer with varying degrees of signal strength, quality, and speed.. video bandwidth is the massive deciding factor on what technology to use. An ADAPTIVE format is what is most efficient for reducing bandwidth requirements.

                                  This includes varying encoding quality per frame and reducing frame rates when very little action is happening.

                                  The opposition to this is ridiculous as when film photographers were to DSLR when it came out.

                                  As was Toys-r-us for not adapting properly to market changes as Amazon disrupted the market.

                                  ADAPTING... is what helps keep you relevant and efficient.

                                   

                                  For now, VFR is part of that adapting process to combat the bandwidth challenge.

                                  And MKV is a fantastic container that supports VBR + VFR + HDR.

                                  1 person found this helpful
                                  • 54. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                    Jim_Simon Level 9

                                    I don't work in Vegas, but I do work a lot of live events.  Current Senators Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand, former President Bill Clinton & former Senator Hillary Clinton, former White House Deputy Chief of Staff Carl Rove are probably the most notable people I've worked with.  I use Sony, Fuji, Canon and Ikegami broadcast cameras.  I work with Blackmagic, Panasonic, Sony and other broadcast switchers.  I've designed, built and directed multi-camera live events for well over a decade.

                                     

                                    I hope that answers some of your questions.

                                     

                                    To address some of your misunderstandings, by saying the MKV format isn't used by professionals, it would be an unreasonable interpretation to read that as "no professional anywhere has ever used the format in a professional capacity", especially if you've read all my posts in this thread.  The proper interpretation is that not enough professionals use the MKV format in their daily work to consider it a "professional" format, or a format used by professionals.  I stand by that claim.

                                     

                                    With regard to Variable Frame Rate, Panasonic uses that term in their cameras to denote separate capture and recording frame rates.  Footage can be captured at 60 fps, but recorded at 24 fps for slow motion playback.  Such footage plays back in slow motion not only within the camera, but in all media players and NLEs alike, without any special settings.  This is vastly different from the variable frame rate used by amateurs when shooting with their cell phones, or recording video game footage.  Despite the name, Panasonic's VFR actually records at a constant frame rate for any given clip.  There is no professional equipment that actually records media whose frame rate changes over the duration of the clip.  In any event, I'm unclear what this has to do with the consumer oriented MKV format?  The only recording formats I saw listed for the linked Panasonic camera are MTS (AVCHD) MOV and MP4.

                                    • 55. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                      NimChimpski Level 1

                                      I confess I haven’t read every post in this thread so if I am suggesting something already covered, please forgive.

                                       

                                      maybe Matroska should look after it’s clients and modify their codec to import into PP/create the plug-in?

                                      ....just pondering. If Adobe is amenable to Matroska import solutions maybe they can be phone-a-friend while Matroska irons out the bugs?

                                      • 56. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                        Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        NimChimpski  wrote

                                         

                                        create the plug-in?

                                         

                                        Interesting. Many steps were taken by plugins/non-Adobe developers producing an option. I think this means it is possible:

                                         

                                        Re: adding support for FFV1 and Matroska

                                        • 58. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                          cbenci Level 1

                                          And once again a client has supplied some footage in MKV format and I have left another feature request. As I have stated before, just being able to convert from MKV to another codec in Media Encoder would be enough.

                                           

                                          All this talk about it not being a professional codec to me is a moot point. Not supporting MKV interrupts my workflow. My agency is a professional business that uses Premier Pro daily, therefore this is a professional request to support an additional codec - no more, no less.

                                           

                                          I don't understand the push back by some users against a feature that only makes the software stronger and ultimately more usable. Strange.

                                          • 59. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                            Jim_Simon Level 9

                                            I don't understand the push back by some users against [this] feature

                                             

                                            Because Adobe has limited resources.  I'd much prefer they spent their Premiere Pro development resources on formats more common in professional use.

                                             

                                            There are issues with all of the following that still need improvement:

                                             

                                            CinemaDNG

                                            Alexa ProRes

                                            Canon RAW

                                            RED

                                            KinneRAW

                                             

                                            Adobe has gone low in their recent development, choosing to work on VR and cell phone compatibility, things many people want but not much used at the broadcast and cinema level, a target I'd much prefer Adobe aim for with Premiere Pro.

                                            • 60. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                              cbenci Level 1

                                              As a Pro user of the C200, I too am really looking forward to native Canon Raw support - this is really very important. And as a Pro, I want MKV support so I can edit jobs quicker and easier. One is not mutually exclusive of the other.

                                               

                                              A client, who build and sell cars worldwide, through their media arm supplied me with high quality MKV's of stock footage of their product. Now do I tell them it's not Pro enough for us to edit the footage or do I ask my video editing software to do as it's supposed to and support a container that has been around for many years.

                                               

                                              Adobe may have limited resources but that's not my concern, especially when I read about record profits to the tune of half a billion dollars. Let's reinvest some of that money into growing the Premier Pro team shall we? Don't get me wrong - I happily pay my subs and don't ever begrudge a company for, god-forbid, turning a profit... but half a billion dollars profit and limited resources don't really match up do they?

                                               

                                              As I said before, at the very least give me an option in Media Encoder to transcode to another codec.

                                               

                                              So yes, I would like Premier Pro to support all of the codecs you have mentioned and support MKV.

                                              • 61. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                                Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                2018.1.1 and I imported an mkv sample from another thread, and then tested the one other mkv sample I had handy:

                                                 

                                                Imported without problem. AAC audio no problem; Vorbis for another and did not import the audio. I don't see any announcement about changes. Did I miss something?

                                                • 62. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                                  EuroSiti Level 1

                                                  Imported without problem. [...] I don't see any announcement about changes. Did I miss something?

                                                  Not really. The Premiere Pro enthusiast who reviews the highlights of the latest update is also surprised (if the player doesn't automatically jump to the correct segment, forward manually to 20:20)

                                                  :

                                                   

                                                  He does note that the media handling seems a little buggy, but he is nonetheless excited about this.

                                                   

                                                  By the way. I just noticed that the lightweight 3rd party Windows tool Icaros offers some really useful improvements to Windows Explorer that will (among other technical metadata) enable correct display of contained video and audio formats in the regular detailed (column) view.

                                                   

                                                  Given that Sony decided to drop MKV container support in their latest Playstation 4 media app update... And of course given that Adobe clearly don't want to publicly announce this improvement, I will allow myself (once again) to conclude that certain decision makers whose bizarre logic is beyond my comprehension still sees Matroska as a highly controversial ('evil') container format primarily used for pirated content that should be banned (just like Sony did with the 'evil' MP3 audio format back in the 1990s)... That didn't work, as some of you might remember.

                                                  1 person found this helpful
                                                  • 63. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                                    Skylir

                                                    What is your damage Jim_Simon!??

                                                     

                                                    You're like a parasite following this thread for years, abasing and dismissing users of their honest request for one of the most widely used video formats for "non-professionals."

                                                     

                                                    MKV has been a requested file format as early as 2008 on adobe forums, and have been one of the most requested formats every year since. Have you ever considered the number of students in high school or college who uses Adobe Premiere for school or enthusiast projects at home? Students alone outnumber the professionals using the software. Guess what is one of their formats of choice? Bingo. I won't even bring up the other non-professional demographic that makes up the majority of the paid Premiere users.

                                                     

                                                    "I just don't see that happening any time soon."


                                                    Well, it happened, Jim. Only took one additional year of ignoring thousands of user requests.

                                                     

                                                    No thanks to you, buddy.

                                                    • 64. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                                      james2ue

                                                      Dear Noiz and Sim Son,

                                                       

                                                      It does not matter about the adobe premier has designed for professional extension such as mov, mp4 or else. The Adobe Premier still supports extinct video extension like 3gp, rm.. and well.. not for mkv.

                                                       

                                                      MKV is not an extinct extention as it's very high video and audio quality; it's quite popular for movies, anime sharing. So MKV is so famous, and who care it's for professional or not.

                                                       

                                                      I frequently use Logic Pro X or iMovies to open the mkv because sometime I may need a nice music track from the movies. Adobe Premier still play 3gp, rm which I rarely found from the internet sources. So that's why we're asking about why an expensive tool like Premier is not supporting much of video files? even add-on purchase?

                                                       

                                                      Thx, I'm not trying to argue here. Just rise a very popular problem when I work on video files.

                                                      • 65. Re: Years and years later, and still no MKV support?
                                                        jimveta Level 1

                                                        I too am delightfully surprised at MKV support and found out by accident just trying it on a whim.

                                                        Not only that, but I'm surprised Premiere supports 10-bit h.264 too! I'm a new user but I was under the impression it did not support 10-bit for h.264 (only h.265) However, I'm guessing the later is due to some of the cameras using 10-bit h.264

                                                         

                                                        I assume the mkv support may be from professional internet streaming side using mkv internally, as even it's not used for client delivery, it's a fantastic intermediate container and also the fact that vp8, vp9 and av1 are delivered in the WebM container which is based on mkv.

                                                         

                                                        Now all that's needed is flac support.

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