Grouped items in InDesign = Color change on PDF.

[CK_Dexter_Haven]

Hi, All.

I sent a PDF draft of a document to a client. She sent back a screenshot showing a light blue 'color change' on what was supposed to be a solid (darker) blue bar.

I do not see this 'effect' in my InDesign doc, or on the PDF i sent, viewed in either Acrobat or (Mac) Preview. I asked what she was using to view it, but haven't received a reply yet.

I wanted to find out if there was anything 'invisible' in my InDesign document that corresponded to that light blue bar, and found that i have a GROUPing of two diagonal lines that run from the top of the page (shown) to the bottom of the page. If you follow the left diagonal line all the way to the bottom, it aligns with the left edge of the light blue box, and the same with the right diagonal line at the top of the page....

What the heck?

A GROUP is causing a color shift? The diagonal lines themselves are set to "OVERLAY" in the transparency setting, but the problem is not where the lines themselves overlap the blue box, but where the Grouping boundaries overlap it. I've never seen this before, and this comes on the heels of a print problem where some layers caused other objects and text to disappear — also not shown on the pdfs used to print that job....

Help? Since i can't duplicate the problem on my end, i'm kinda lost. The images below are my 'recreation' of the problem.

and a screenshot from the resulting PDF:

[EDIT/UPDATE: I tried to find a viewer that would replicate the problem. The PDFs worked in Safari, Firefox, Acrobat, and Preview. Then i tried Google Chrome browser. Bingo. I tried using a PDF X1A/X4 presets, but they didn't fix the issue. Tried CMYK vs RGB. No fix. Then, i simply ungrouped those two lines, and again, BINGO — display problem was not found in Chrome. But, i've made hundreds of PDFs for clients and was never made aware that this might have been happening in any of them. And, i probably need to continue to use Groups.... So, is there a fix on this end?]

[Dov Isaacs]

The fix is to complain to Google that they are improperly rendering your PDF files! 

You could post one such PDF file for us to look at and see if there is anything under the hood that would cause such an anomaly? Perhaps you have unknowingly have overprint set someplace where you don't want or need it?

          - Dov

[CK_Dexter_Haven]

Hey, Dov.

Yeah, i just posted this on Google's forum.

I can't post a real/life document, as i may need to protect my client, but maybe i'll make a complete 'fake' doc with similar components to post for testing. Thanks for that suggestion.

The whole Overlay thing with Adobe, though — i just had an issue where the PDF looked fine, but printed where an object set on "overlay" that was BENEATH some text actually COVERED that text. Somehow.... And i was cautioned by a different printer a couple of years ago about the Overlay setting. It's always going to be freaky to me when a PDF doesn't print as it looks on screen. Maybe there's an additional step i need to take? To Flatten something? To a viewer or printer, It should work like a photograph, not like a file with a bunch of layers in it.

-derek

[Dov Isaacs]

What I don't understand is why you are checking “overlay” unless you are doing something with live transparency. Please post some sort of sample that shows what you are actually doing (the InDesign file and the resultant PDF file).

          - Dov

[CK_Dexter_Haven]

I don't understand what you mean by "checking 'overlay.'" Or "live transparency."

Did i say i "checked transparency" somewhere? I'm using objects and lines and images where they are on top of other objects, text, etc, and for some of those objects, i use the "overlay" setting in the Transparency palette. Sometimes i use Darken or Multiply, but the issue seems to be with Overlay. That's it, really. In this particular document, it was two fine line rules, diagonal, that were grouped together, and then set to Overlay other objects. When i ungrouped them, and kept the Overlay setting, no problem with Chrome.

I just made a 'test' page, using overlay, and even with some of the same components from the previously problematic page, including Grouped lines, and it looks fine in Chrome. So, yeah, i'm still confused.

[Dov Isaacs]

Unless you are actually using transparency, don't check that overlay box. Objects and groups of object naturally overlay each other. You may be triggering something odd by checking that unnecessary box.

          - Dov

[CK_Dexter_Haven]

Still not sure what you mean by 'checking an overlay box.' The Overlay setting is a Click/Scroll menu item in the Effects palette.

I'm not talking about an overprint setting.

See this image:

This isn't 'real' — just some quick examples of the types of things that are in my actual document. Within this test page, the yellow rectangle is Overlaying the blue rectangle. The two outside pink diagonal lines are Overlaying everything, and are Grouped together. In the vertical gray box, there is a 'paper texture' image, and above that, just a vector shape that is set to Overlay the entire vertical rectangle.

The dotted lines show the Grouping of two of those diagonal pink lines. That's the type of thing that was causing me trouble in the original image from my first post. The Gray box overlay is what caused me trouble in a Print job a few weeks ago.

[Dov Isaacs]

OK. Got what you are doing although it would help if you could post the InDesign file of this sample. Yes, you are using transparency. And a blending mode "overlay" that isn't all that commonly used. I'll try to look at this sometime in the next few days if I have a few minutes.

               - Dov

[CK_Dexter_Haven]

How would i Post this file? I'd have to include the linked image file, as well. But, if i could (post a dropbox link?), the test file i just made does not exhibit the problem. Unless i could post the problematic file, i'm not sure what you could see. And i can't post my client's document publicly. If there were a way to send it to you directly, i would, i guess.

I'm wondering about the effects of EDIT > Tranparency Flattener Presets. And also, when i export PDFs, i've been using a preset i created a few years ago, and it's compatibility is set for Acrobat 5/PDF1.4. Maybe i should 'update' that? I was using what had been tried and true for years, but now it is no longer tried nor true.....

Nope. I just tried Compatibility > more recent versions, and even the 8/9 version has the same problems.

[Dov Isaacs]

Dropbox works fine.

Exporting as PDF 1.4 fortunately doesn't flatten transparency. It leaves it “live” and as such, transparency flattener presets are totally irrelevant here.

     - Dov

[CK_Dexter_Haven]

I just sent the dropbox link to you via the 'personal message' attached to your profile. I appreciate your help with this.

[Test Screen Name]

Just to add a little about the Overlay transparency mode. It is certainly a kind of transparency. Not at all the same as laying one object over another in a usual opaque way. The rules of PDF say Overlay: "Multiplies or screens the colours, depending on the backdrop colour value. Source colours overlay the backdrop while preserving its highlights and shadows. The backdrop colour is not replaced but is mixed with the source colour to reflect the lightness or darkness of the backdrop."

You seem to be choosing an effect from the effect palette. Not sure what you are trying to achieve, if you don't actually want an effect... certainly, if you don't want or expect a transparency effect, don't use overlay at all, ever.

[CK_Dexter_Haven]

MVP —

I'm choosing that effect, because i want that effect. Transparency is the intended effect.

I would be fine with "the rules of PDF," except that there is sometimes an inconsistency with how PDF treats the material.

I've long had an issue where text is displayed with thick "L" and "I" characters, for example. And now these two issues, where the PDF looks perfect in five apps/readers, but is 'fatally' flawed in just one.

[Test Screen Name]

Sorry, I've misinterpreted your replies. I thought you were saying that you weren't using transparency. So, you have a transparency group (a special thing in PDF terms), and I guess Google don't handle them correctly in this situation. If this is a prepress file, I think it would be in order just to say that Chrome isn't a prepress tool, and the client needs to view it in Adobe software.