Adjustment layer exports with different colors

[_Zeninho_]

Hello!

I'm having the following problem:

I have my final sequence all finished and with color correction and color grading done. The color grading is done partly with Lumetri on each clip and the general and final mood is applied with an adjustment layer on top off the whole sequence.

When I reproduce the project on premiere (after render the whole thing) I see the colors just as I want them. But when I export the project it renders colors differently. With some project it was very desaturated (almost B&W) with others its more saturated and deeper blacks.

I've discovered that this is something caused by the adjustment layer on top because if I turn it off and export the sequence I get the colors just as I see them on the monitor panel.

Does anyone know what am I doing wrong? Can somebody help me? I'm not being able to grade my projects.

Thanks!

[Vidya Sagar]

Hi _Zeninho_,

Sorry for the trouble. Import the exported file back into Premiere Pro & check the colors.

Also, just for a test, change the renderer in Project settings & check the issue with an Adjustment layer. Steps: FAQ: How to change the Video Renderer in Premiere Pro?

Let us know the status.

Thanks,

Vidya

[_Zeninho_]

Hi Vidya,

Thanks for your quick answer!

I've tried changing the renderer and it does not solve the problem.

I've also made some more test in order to find out where the problem is. I've tried the following: I've copied and pasted to each clip of the sequence the Lumetri effect applied to the adjustment layer and exported the sequence like that and the colors rendered ok. So the problem is definitely on the process of exporting and rendering the sequence with the adjustment layer. The export settings were on both cases the same and nothing changed except for the Lumetri effect being directly on each clip or in one adjustment layer above all the clips.

Can you point out any more possible solutions?

Thanks!

[juanmario]

As it has happened to me that when combining effects not of the expected result I make this comment to you:

According to what I understand from your comment, it seems that Premiere does not process the preview in the same way as the export.

The way I had to solve the problem is to nest, select the entire sequence, right click, nest, and above the nested sequence the adjustment layer with the rest of the effects.

You can test if it also works for you.

[_Zeninho_]

Thanks juanmario​! I'm about to try what you proposed. I didn't understand one thing. You suggest that I should nest the whole sequence and apply the adjustment layer to the nested sequence right?

Regards,

[juanmario]

Hi _Zeninho_

I apologize if my previous comment was not understood.

Exactly, that's what I meant, apply the adjustment layer to the nested sequence.

This separates the processing of the effects.

[Vidya Sagar]

Hi _Zeninho_,,

Please try the steps recommended by juanmario & let us know the status.

Thanks,

Vidya

[_Zeninho_]

Hi Vidya, could you please read the comment Neil made at the bottom? Could you please confirm this is like this?

Is it true that "PrPro is built around working with the universal standards for pro b-cast media: Rec 709/sRGB at gamma 2.2, and will work to show that within the program. If your monitor is not set for that, viewers outside the app will not show the image the same. Especially QuickTime player and the Safari and Chrome browsers, which are all completely color-unaware."

I can't do anything to change this??

I can't believe that we have so little color management options as videographers!

Its hard for me to accept that this can't be solved. Whats the use of color grading in premiere if you can't get the colors right on export!

Please help!!

[R Neil Haugen]

Somehow you missed the entire content, and I realize it's a pretty technical discussion. I assume you are aware that there are vast differences between color 'spaces' in both tonal range and color depth or ... width? Look up online for comparative charts of different color spaces.

One of the first things to learn in color management is you can't take a color image made for one 'space' and plop it into another and get the same image. Technically, it can't work that way. Take an image created in a 'smaller' space, plop it into a bigger one, it loses saturation & contrast. Take one from a bigger space to a smaller, it gains sat & contrast.

If you export a video file color managed for say a P3 space (very wide/broad compared to sRGB) like some of the newer Macs, and someone views it on an sRGB device, it will be way contrasty with major clipping in whites, blacks, and color channels Way over-saturated. Ugly.

But a Rec709 file shown on a P3 monitor with appropriate color awareness of the viewing app will look great.

So ... the problem is that outside of PrPro, your computer and apps aren't color managed properly to be aware of the 'space' of the images shown. That isn't PrPro's problem.

PrPro can only attempt to control the viewing environment within PrPro. I've no clue how that app is supposed to change other apps & the OS when it's not even running. Which is what you are asking, though you may not realize it.

PrPro works in the currently accepted color space for pro video standards.  That seems pretty simple and straight-forward.

PrPro cannot control the color awareness of other apps or the OS of whatever device the exported files are viewed on. That seems also pretty straight-forward.

So the solution is to use properly color-aware viewing apps on your computer. That's the only solution that can work. That's what all professional post-production facilities do. That's how all professionally produced & broadcast or distributed media is produced. To standards, tested on calibrated equipment operating to tight specs.

Once it's out in the wild, well ... no one has control any more do they?

In not too long, we'll probably have more color management options within PrPro, as HDR and wider gamut spaces are coming. A colorist I know is one of the first shops set up as a fully DolbyVision "official" facility. Which is a very big HDR setup. He's even graded a few shows in that, as he does some of the major National Geo shows, things like that. So, he's well-known, got the second east coast shop can even DO that, and ... he's swamped with it, right?

Nope. Vast majority of his work is still Rec709/sRGB. Most of his HDR grades are currently a 'safety' option for the content producer, so they'll have a fully HDR done version when they actually can use it in their archives to replace the one they're currently broadcasting.

Even on his setup, no output file can out-guess the viewing app/device, though.

Neil

[_Zeninho_]

Neil,

First of all thanks for such a comprehensive answer and for all your patience with me. You're really helping me out here.

I think I understand what you're saying: Premiere works on a determined color space ("PrPro works in the currently accepted color space for pro video standards" on your own words) and when I export the project and visualise the output file I do it in a non color managed app and hence the differences in color.

My question now is the following: can;t I select the color space to work with in premiere? Can't I change it?

I came from still photography and in photoshop I can assign different color profiles to an image and in that way prevent this (the color changing) to happen. There's no way to work in a "smaller color space" to be sure there won't be a change in the feature?

I find it really hard to believe that I'm the only one having this problem being that there are thousands of video producers uploading color graded videos to youtube (to name one platform). They must color grade, export and see their videos correctly I assume.

I hope I'm not taking you to the limit of your patience here.

Thanks!

[R Neil Haugen]

There's multiple color spaces for still photos, I've been a pro portrait photographer over 40 years now. There isn't a "standard".

Video is *not* the same. Not even close. Which was a stunner to me  about 6 years back.

You can't get *anything* accepted for broadcasting network or satellite that doesn't fit into very tight Rec709/sRGB standards. They have automatic QC machines that will reject any files with more than a few pixels out of legal range for white/black and saturation.

So everything you see on TV and cable? That's ALL Rec709/sRGB.

So that's the first part.

The second is that you have no control whatsoever on how that material appears on screens "out in the wild". Understand that every screen has different capabilities, problems, and viewing situations. Look at a screen in a bright room. Now turn all lights off. Very different views of shadows,  highlights,  and color.

The only thing we can do is make our material as close to standards as possible. Will it look the same on some other app or screen? Nope. That ain't the point.

The point is it will look like all other professional video shown on that screen.

Which is the best you can do.

Safari and Chrome are colorblind. Or color stupid, you could say. Firefox tries to show accordingly to color space tags. You can't control which browser "they" use, and that choice can be huge on how it looks.

Quicktime and VLC will show very differently also. You can't control that choice either.

Neil

[Jim_Simon]

I think Jamie LeJeune has it right in the following thread from the Blackmagic forums.  He's specifically talking about Resolve, but the idea holds true for all NLEs.  The upshot is, "The only image you can trust is to run SDI out to an accurately calibrated reference monitor."

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=68410

[_Zeninho_]

Hi Jim Simon​! thanks for your reply. I understand what you say buy I don't think this is the case. My problem is that I see differences in the way premiere renders colors when exporting my projects. This differences are visible on the same monitor. So, when I compare the colors on premiere against the colors on the exported file they differ greatly.

What you suggest would apply if the differences appeared when I change the viewing monitor, am I right?

Please let me know if I'm mistaken.

Regards!

[Jim_Simon]

My problem is that I see differences in the way premiere renders colors when exporting my projects.

That could easily be because you're not viewing it correctly.  That is always the first step here.  Make sure you're seeing an accurate signal.  That means a calibrated display from a hardware device.

[_Zeninho_]

I'm sorry if I keep insisting with this and thank you for bearing with me, but if I always use the same monitor (my MacBook Pro monitor) shouldn't  I always see the same colors (during editing and after exporting)? Even if these are not accurate as my laptop's monitor may not be well calibrated. The miscalibration should be the same for both instances (editing inside premiere and exported final file).

If this was a problem of bad calibration I should see one thing during editing, the same thing when I see the exported file on my laptop and a different one when I see this file on one well calibrated monitor. Or am I wrong?

Thanks for your reply and patience.

Regards

PS. Please find attached both instances (what I see in premiere and the exported file) both on my macbook monitor side by side

[R Neil Haugen]

To your question, absolutely ... not.

PrPro is built around working with the universal standards for pro b-cast media: Rec 709/sRGB at gamma 2.2, and will work to show that within the program. If your monitor is not set for that, viewers outside the app will not show the image the same. Especially QuickTime player and the Safari and Chrome browsers, which are all completely color-unaware.

VLC and Potplayer are mostly color-aware, and you can go into them and set the color space I think on most rigs. Could be wrong on that last bit though. And Firefox is the only color-aware browser.

Many recent Mac monitors are P3, a very different color space with different gamma also I believe. Mac gives no user options to set color space and anyway, if the monitor hardware is P3, it probably will only be sort of successful to try & profile it to sRGB/2.2.

PrPro currently doesn't have user-settings for color management, other than in the Lumetri panel you can select Rec2020 and HDR, which ... unless you actually have a monitor capable of those, doesn't do much. Feel free to request more user settings for color management in PrPro. HDR is coming, and rather fast ... and monitors are changing also. I tend to think we need to be able to adjust for what our gear is to at least some minimal extent.

Neil

Adobe UserVoice Bug /Feature form: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro