Premiere Pro v12.11 build 10 Choppy playback

[johng71459820]

Since the recent updates my playback in the editing view is very choppy, even on HD video if you do the simplest of adjustment to colour or audio levels the playback becomes choppy. Even if you render everything it makes no difference.

It's making the software almost unusable in 4K as I simply can't watch my edit back at their correct speed. Even if you change it to 1/8 quality it's still choppy.  I got a new laptop a fe months back and it was working super fast, but after this PP update it's just so slow now.

Any ideas on how I can get it back to it's super quick editing & playback performance?

Thanks, John

[johng71459820]

I must say that I pay a premium for the adobe CC service, but the fact I cannot phone someone for help, I cannot send an email for support and instead I'm supposed to list my details on a forum to get help, it seems like a shoddy company to me.

What sort of business doesn't want to help their customers? You realise you'll lose my business if you treat me this way?

I want you to provide me with support, right now, not in a few days!!!

[R Neil Haugen]

Posting the data on here would get you some answers and that right quick. But if we don't see the data, we can't help. Pretty simple.

Many of the folks who 'hang' here ready & willing to help have years more experience than anyone in the official "Help" system, btw. So posting enough information so 'we' can figure out a troubleshooting process or straight answer the issue can be a pretty fast process much of the time.

In general, most major releases of PrPro take a bit more hardware than the previous one. The "2018" version is the build 12.x series, 2017 is the build 11.x series.

4k media ... the biggest problem posed with 4k media is if it is long-GOP media, produced by most drones/DSLRs/M4-3 and most phones. Also known as H.264. Can be in either the mp4 or mov wrapper. Occasionally, other "wrappers" may be involved. I think some AVCHD media may also be H.264, but I could be mistaken on that.

This media isn't recorded as distinct frames. The specialized chips that break up the media to put it on card in small amounts and fast record a complete or i-frame every 9 to 15 (historically) or even up to 30 frames apart now. In between are p- and b-frames, which are simply a small dataset of the pixels that will change before the next i-frame or have changed since the last i-frame, or both.

Some drones and other rigs now even use partial i-frames, so the distance between complete frames can be as much as 120 frames.

For playback, rather than simply de-compressing, the CPU of the computer has to sort the media, decompress the early i-frames, store to RAM, then sort out which p/b/partial frames are connected, recall the decompressed frame/s from RAM, create the new frames from the data-sets to replace pixels in each affected frame, store that to RAM, and work through the process. Oh, and also feed the rest of the computer the resultant frames in order.

It is incredibly CPU/RAM and cores/threads intensive work. More cores are better, up to 10 or so it seems, and faster are better, approaching or exceeding 4Ghz in CPU "speed". And kept active by maybe 10Gb RAM per core.

My 6-core i7 desktop, with 32Gb of RAM works with most H.264 long-GOP media ok at first. If I'm going to be doing multiple Lumetri instances (realistically, quite likely for me, alas ... ), Warp Stabilzer (thankfully, a rare need in my stuff), or heavy graphics or such-not, I'll definitely use the Cineform proxy preset included in PrPro and use the Toggle Proxies icon on the control-block for the Program monitor (blue=proxies, grey=original media) for playback & general editing to get better playback.

Some editors and many of the colorists I know simply transcode all long-GOP media to a good-quality editing codec such as ProRes, Cineform, or DNxHD/R before even importing it into PrPro to edit. The t-codes are of course massively larger on disc, so they can be dumped on archiving the project, keeping the much smaller original media. If the project needs to be worked again, t-codes can be made then.

Maybe some of the above can help you right now. And ... post that data on both your rig and the media involved.

Neil

[johng71459820]

I appreciate your interest, but you ask in a very assuming manner for “data” like I’m on the same page as you.

I was forced to this forum because adobe have abandoned support services for their fee paying customers.

As as I said, it all worked fine until an update, a single version update isnt going to render a brand new 2018 £2k Dell gaming laptop useless. What I really want to test is adobe, they force me here with a pretext that their own staff are here 24/7 to provide support. So that’s what I’m waiting for, anything less and their in breach of contract and I’m off to download davinci    

[RjL190365]

Actually, Adobe NEVER had 24/7 in-house technical support. Its technical support staff only works on weekdays (Monday thru Friday), generally during daytime hours only.

[johng71459820]

That contradicts their recorded support message.

Why do people on forums always seem to be aggressive?

[R Neil Haugen]

Haven't seen any "aggression" here. Just facts. Rjl is correct that Adobe phone support is m-f and as someone who's used Adobe products since around 1993, it's always been like that.

There is an option for both chat-help over the computer (typing into a screen) and phone ... but they make it hard to find for some odd reason.

I appreciate your interest, but you ask in a very assuming manner for “data” like I’m on the same page as you.

I don't understand that comment ... but I might have been incomplete as to the specific data that would help. As in the media you're using ... format/codec, frame-size/rate, and created by what, stored on what type of drive for your computer. And for the computer, the OS/CPU/RAM/GPU/vRAM.

With that data, many of us 'here' can give a pretty good idea of what to expect with PrPro 2018. Although within my first post are the most pertinent information for so many choppy/laggy playback issues. With the data from the media/computer, I (and many others) can give a more specific response of course.

Neil

[johng71459820]

Thanks, I’ve always Understood UPPERCASE to be shouting, and starting a sentence with Actually is argumentative.

I‘m here purely to test the service level from my supplier, if they fail then they’ve broke their terms and I’m free from my contractual obligations to pay them further, at which point I can use software which seems more stable, and so far in my testing, far more suitable for editing videos of all formats.

[R Neil Haugen]

If an entire post is uppercase, yea, it would definitely be either shouting or someone a bit ... computer challenged, perhaps?

I've noted that a lot of people use all-caps words rather than use say italics (like I do) to emphasize something, and at that point, I wouldn't consider it shouting. And as someone who was an English Lit major in college (though admittedly 40 years ago) ... starting a sentence with "actually" wouldn't have been seen as argumentative, the objection would have been starting a sentence with an adverb. Adverbs being rather disliked by most of my profs for most uses.

Still, the company does make accessing their help people more difficult than it should be. This link includes (near the bottom) the choice of forums, chat (text-based) or phone support. I got there via the Help line in the Help menu for PrPro.

Contact Customer Care

Neil

[johng71459820]

The chat system seems to loop with a message saying the staff are busy helping other customers and after 7 or 8 repetitions the chat ends.

The phone support port line takes you through 3 minutes of options for you then to be told to go to their support website.

Utterly shambolic support given how easy it is to setup chat & call centres around the world providing global support befitting a global organisation.

[R Neil Haugen]

Hey, that response you've got sucks. No question. I've used the chat on several situations, and got through in maybe 10 minutes. Not instantaneous, but at least, I got through. The one time I went phone, it actually went through, and thanks to the comments from Product Support manager Kevin-Monahan​ posted in numerous threads on this forum, I knew to ask for the 'video que', to get sent to a specialist in video apps rather than with a generalist. So the help was actually decent.

Not at all what you've gotten, which again, sucks. Maybe Kevin can pop in here.

Though if you'd posted the data asked for, I could probably answer anything you'd match with the help system. And you'd be answered.

Neil

[johng71459820]

http://www.userbenchmark.com/UserRun/9211963

That has just been run now, hopefully that answers some questions. Regarding the video used it's 4k, from a sony a6500 in 25fps, 48k stereo, recorded in mp4 format.

It's the same camera and settings I've used for a long time, the same computer I've used for months, the only change was the recent PP update.

I also edit gopro fusion files, using the vr reframe tool, which used to work fine and now is useless as you change the settings and it takes around 7 seconds to update on screen.

[R Neil Haugen]

That's not stepping forward, is it?

I've had great performance from 2018 after initially getting the workspaces issue ... which took me three days to get sorted out. Others clearly have issues with performance, and it's so oddly variable I can't see any pattern whatever. Which is a total pain of itself.

How many cores on your rig, Ghz speed of the cores, and how much RAM?

Neil

[johng71459820]

The spec is in the link above with the benchmark results for my computer.

Still no response form Adobe, I might see how long it takes to respond to me cancelling my monthly payment to them.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi JohnG,

Sorry for your issues.

Still no response form Adobe, I might see how long it takes to respond to me cancelling my monthly payment to them.

Apologies for any misunderstandings, but, a forum post does not generate a support ticket and will not necessarily generate a response from an Adobe employee. We do try and assist here as much as possible but we do not have the bandwidth to respond to every single forum post. Sorry.

If you wish official support from Adobe and want to generate a support ticket, you need to contact us: Contact Customer Care

Are you still having trouble contacting us via this link? If you are a standard Creative Cloud customer, you should have no trouble here. If so, please let me know. We are available M-F during normal business hours, Pacific Daylight Time. After hours, there is some support, but you will not get anyone directly from our "video queue" and it will be more of a generalist assisting you.

If you continue to have trouble, kindly PM me your Adobe ID and I will have an agent contact you.

The spec is in the link above with the benchmark results for my computer.

You say you have a Dell Gaming Computer that cost you around 2,000 UK pounds, which is probably a fine computer. That said, you also mentioned you are editing with 4K footage, likely in H.264 format. Let's hoist those red flags.

This format is difficult to work with on any computer, unless it is very, very powerful.

Even if you have a powerful system, I would recommend that you take preemptive action for better performance with the raw format by transcoding it, using the proxy workflow, or the smart rendering workflow.

Try one of these methods and let us know if your workflow has improved. Anxious to hear back with the results. Let us know!

Thanks!
Kevin

[johng71459820]

Kevin,

If you read my first post you'd understand a bit more about how terrible your "customer Care " system is.

Let me run you through it, I click the link you sent, I then choose "what can I help you with" and I choose Prem Pro, then option 2 and none of the 6 options fit this problem, but let me say troubleshooting is closest so I choose that. I then get to see either the "self-help solutions" or I get "show me more options" and I naturally choose more options because I want to speak to someone to resolve my problem now. Now section 3 says choose, but all I get it "community forums"

So forgive me for sounding annoyed, but you've replied to my post and asked me to come back here and post again!!!

I pay you every month for your products, I want to talk to you to get help to help me use your products when they go wrong. So please can you just get someone to contact me urgently to get this sorted.

John

[johng71459820]

Still no reply, no fix, still crappy playback even on another PC, this software is the problem. You guys just take our money and don't bother to support us.

Is it so difficult to support your customers?

[R Neil Haugen]

Ok, went to the other link to check your computer specs. First, I'll give you the recommendations I've seen for handling long-GOP media like everything you've talked about. It's the worst crap for editing made, btw ... the dedicated chips in the camera can compress it to chip fast, because all the processing steps are hardware-designed. The computer can't for playback.

You've got a complete or  "i-frame" every 9, 15, 30, or even more frames apart, depending. Those are complete but compressed. ALL other frames are just data-sets in a matrix of the pixels that have changed since the last i-frame, will change before the next i-frame, or ... both. Plus some of the drones and GoPro rigs are also using partial i-frames now.

To play that back is incredibly core/thread/RAM intense. CPU decodes an i-frame, stores to RAM, pulls the next data-set, recalls the i-frame, computes that frame and sends, sends i-frame back to RAM. Rinse & repeat. To the point most of the colorists I know, and understand they run truly monster computers ... if they see any long-GOP media on a sequence they're going to grade, transcode it to a good mezzanine codec like ProRes, Cineform, or DNxHD/R to replace the media on the sequence.

So ... to get the best computer work for that media, what is called for is  many fast cores and 12-12GB of RAM per core. 10 cores seems to be the limit that PrPro uses effectively, so 8-10 cores at close to or above 4Ghz CPU processing speed with 10GB RAM minimum per core for best work.

According to that link you provided, you're running four cores at 2.8Ghz, with a total of 16GB of DDR4 RAM.

With those specs, running PrPro2018, you'll need to use the rather decent included proxy process to get good playback/editing with long-GOP media. As to it running better on 2017, well ... as time goes by, the hardware needs do seem to go up. Had a thread on this a while back, another user said PrPro should have something like Resolve's "optimize media" option rather than having people use proxies. Had to break it to him ... that is Resolve's terminology for making proxy media, just like they call masks "power windows".

I run a six core rig with a mid-3 CPU speed with 32GB of RAM and a GTX1060/4gb, and for some things I can get by, but most of my projects get Cineform proxies via the included presets.

Neil

[johng71459820]

I appreciate the reply, but you missed the biggest part of my complaint. It all worked flawlessly before the update a month or so ago.

I also can’t dictate to clients what format their videos are in, I’d lose business. If you‘re saying PP isn’t able to cope with caneras made within the past 2 years then that’s a reason to refund me. I want software that is bang up to date and doesn’t stop working after each update, Apple got sued big time for pushing out updates that way.

I‘m still waiting for support to get in touch to resolve your software faults.

John

[R Neil Haugen]

I didn't say nor imply anything about PrPro being unable to work with cameras but only the troubles of the computer hardware with long-GOP media. Which is an issue for most NLE's/Grading/Fx apps, though the Apple/FCP in-house relationship means Apple of course juices the OS to work as good as possible with FCP. So some users get a bit better long-GOP performance with FCPx than PrPro, but I can't test that being a PC user.

I don't know of course which version/build of PrPro you were using, and which you updated to a month back. If it was a 12.x to 12.x update and got slower, yea, I'd definitely post that on their new UserVoice feedback system. Things shouldn't slow down within a build series, I don't think, so if that's the case, please post the comments. Even if it was 2017 to 2018, you might still want to note lower playback on the UserVoice system, just for their informational uses.

Adobe Bug /Feature Request service: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro

Whether we like it or not, hardware can matter a lot. Some newer cameras and 'devices' do push the settings options within formats/codecs to the point of making difficulty for the hardware and software used to post-process the media. The post-processing apps respond by doing things that, to work best, need newer computer hardware.

It will be a never-ending process. I'm not a huge fan of needing a new rig for editing every couple years or so myself. But it's part of Life in the p-p lane. I've run my own main camera for what, 3 years now? But when that BM Pocket Cinema4K comes out in another couple months, yea ... I'm biting. Given the file-sizes/formats that thing can put out, I may also need to upgrade or replace my editing rig. Ouch ... but ... it won't be Adobe's fault or Intel's that I suddenly am choosing to put a ton heavier workload on things.

Neil