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A good read.
https://enablewebdesign.com/makes-website-visually-appealing/
A nice place to go for inspiration:
https://www.siteinspire.com/websites
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Needs to concentrate on the coding side a bit more..........yikes.........how many stylesheets does a website need. This is what your automated processes, in this case Wordpress, create for you....a pile of poo.
<link rel='stylesheet' id='wp-color-picker-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/qiksw5r5/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='grw_css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/6nd3o8r5/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='n10s-content-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/dj3po51m/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='divi-fontawesome-gtm-custom-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/d4b7jc8h/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='normalize_css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/eh1s6zu8/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='custom_style_css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/g39rtyl3/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='siq_icon_css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/2cwzxeu1/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='siq_front_css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/7a9bppj7/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='wp-pagenavi-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/diicfr4a/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='sb_mod_menu_css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/e700ng78/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='et_monarch-css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/31dusre5/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='et-gf-open-sans-css' href='https://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Open+Sans:400,700' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='et-builder-googlefonts-cached-css' href='https://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Nunito+Sans%3A200%2C200italic%2C300%2C300italic%2Cregular%2C...' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='jquery-lazyloadxt-spinner-css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/2dw1ahf8/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='a3a3_lazy_load-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/d32p3x9f/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='dashicons-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/ftbz2b20/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='chi-dmm-css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/jr6whmnw/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='parent-theme-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/1eu9xen1/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='child-theme-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/ffb7e1ug/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='agsdcm-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/mcjq31eb/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='ts_owl-carousel-css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/mcnl83l8/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='ts_font-awesome-css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/fs28lmd5/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='ts_divi_testimonial_slider_custom_css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/1fe5xga2/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='ts_widget_style-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/mkw0693c/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='ts_archive_testimonial-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/fcwfzvxc/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='sb_divi_fe_custom_css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/7z70187s/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='sb_et_tax_li_css-css' href='//enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/cache/wpfc-minified/fp4me5i1/5qzva.css' type='text/css' media='all' />
<script type='text/javascript' src='https://enablewebdesign.com/wp-content/plugins/google-reviews-business/static/js/wpac-time.js?ver=4....'></script>
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Which only goes to prove that if internet connection speeds had not increased dramatically over the last 10 years, (depending on where one lives) many website visits would be abandoned before they had loaded, due to excessive file sizes.
However, I think Nancy was pointing out that some knowledge of good design principles are essential, which I agree with. One thing that the article does not point out though, is that the requirements of the target user can change general design principles.
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However, I think Nancy was pointing out that some knowledge of good design principles are essential, which I agree with.
Sure, I was just pointing out the webpage seems to have abandoned any attempt at acceptable coding practices....it's like the pot calling the kettle black. I think good design and good coding skills ideally should go hand in hand.
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osgood_ wrote
Sure, I was just pointing out the webpage seems to have abandoned any attempt at acceptable coding practices....it's like the pot calling the kettle black. I think good design and good coding skills ideally should go hand in hand.
I've just replied to a post in the Muse forum, in which a poster complained about the Spark app being marketed as not requiring design knowledge. Why should design knowledge be required to produce a good design if Muse users think code knowledge is not required to produce a good web site?
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osgood_ wrote
Sure, I was just pointing out the webpage seems to have abandoned any attempt at acceptable coding practices....
Jeeze Louise, osgood! The soapbox again? It's a blog article. And like most blogs it's running on a popular blogging platform the same as CSS Tricks, SitePoint and others....
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea wrote
osgood_ wrote
Sure, I was just pointing out the webpage seems to have abandoned any attempt at acceptable coding practices....
Jeeze Louise, osgood! The soapbox again? It's a blog article. And like most blogs it's running on a popular blogging platform the same as CSS Tricks, SitePoint and others....
27 stylesheet links, I lost count after that.............you think that is acceptable. I don't and I don't give a toss what the page is running on, it's complete crap and utter garbage. WTF is wrong with the web-devlopment world these days...........it's being infiltrated by complete amatuers who have zero understanding, pride or any kind of committment in what they do or produce.
This blogger might be seriously cocerned about the visual aspect of producing a website and feels the need to inform everyone - its just a pity they weren't as concerned about the tools they use or choose to build the blog/website.
Its NOT just a blog either, the whole website is structured the same way.
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The difference between us:
I open a book and read the story.
You open a book and critique the book binder.
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nice metaphor
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea wrote
The difference between us:
I open a book and read the story.
You open a book and critique the book binder.
I was thinking about this when I went to this site 5G in Australia: How Fast Will It Be and When Is It Coming? for some information.
In doing so, I noted the simplicity, the amount of information, the fact that I did not have to scroll back up to find the navigation bar, its quick rendering. Everything that I find attractive when I visit a website.
If I was not a web developer, I would not have noticed https://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.southernphone.com.au%2FBlog%2F2018%2FMar%2F5G-in-... and Latest Performance Report for: https://www.southernphone.com.au/Blog/2018/Mar/5G-in-australia-what-t...
So yes Nancy, the story is what is important.
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Thats just confirming my point.......the profession in general leaves a lot to be desired. God forbid if an aircraft mechanic were to be so sloppy.
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osgood_ wrote
God forbid if an aircraft mechanic were to be so sloppy.
Probably a bad example, as I am probably the only one of this forums regular contributers who knows what the penalties are for sloppy work by anyone in the aircraft industry, but I do get your point.
The problem with the web design/development profession, is that qualifications for the level of expertise required for the building of the run-of-the-mill website is zero. That is a different problem though from the original post by Nancy, which we still have not discussed. Is the article really relevant to the web?
Most of the 'design' principles are taken from print requirements and best practices, which are restricted by the cost of such things as paper type, and inks used, (especially when using multiple colours). So are the principles as restrictive for the web, where paper is free, and colours cost nothing. Even white space can be used without any real problems.
The other item mentioned in the article, is web site layout, where it is said that page layout is now well established, is it, or have we just reached a point of 'lack of inspiration'. After all, at the beginning of maned flight, bi-planes were the norm, but I have yet to see any modern aircraft with such a wing layout.
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I used that example to substantiate a point l was making that other professions do require years of learning, exams, close scrutiny by senior supervisors etc before youre deemed qualified to perform the job to a level expected.
Meanwhile back in the web develpment world just because its not a matter of life or death its perfectly ok, in the eyes of those who posted a response in this thread apart from yourself, to use sloppy worfllows and produce sloppy code.
At least try to attain a level of acceptability rather than ignoring it completly and showing very little committment that your the least bit interested in what you are producing. I guess that is just too much to expect in this day and age
Or am l completely out of touch and 27 links to stylesheets and numorous links to js files plus a substsintial number of radically scatered js functions directly within the code is the new and advanced way to code. Those that have already responded alluding to it is need not reapply for the position
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osgood_ wrote
Meanwhile back in the web develpment world just because its not a matter of life or death its perfectly ok, in the eyes of those who posted a response in this thread apart from yourself, to use sloppy worfllows and produce sloppy code.
For the site owner it maybe a matter of life and death, (not literally) as their company/buisness survival and growth may depend on not just the apearance, but the code behind it.
How many times have we read in this and other forums, that a developer has lost a client, simply because the client or a relation can build the site for them using wordpress, (or a Muse like program) for almost nothing. As developers should we not be able to point out the advantages of good coding, instead of saying "it's normal now".
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What l critic is the area of work that all in this forum are involved in or should be, sadly that is clearly not the case.
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No, Nancy. You're wrong. You know I'm not a huge Osgood fan, but he is right and you are wrong. You mentioned CSS Tricks. Here are the style sheets their home page is loading:
Conditionally served
<link rel="stylesheet" href="https://cloud.typography.com/610186/6645572/css/fonts.css">
<link rel="stylesheet" href="https://css-tricks.com/wp-content/themes/CSS-Tricks-16/style.css?v=17.2">
<link rel="stylesheet" href="https://css-tricks.com/wp-content/themes/CSS-Tricks-16/css/oldie.css">
<link rel="stylesheet" href="https://css-tricks.com/wp-content/themes/CSS-Tricks-16/style.css?v=17.2>
Related to a plugin
<link rel='stylesheet' id='jetpack-search-widget-css' href='https://css-tricks.com/wp-content/plugins/jetpack/modules/widgets/search/css/search-widget-frontend....' type='text/css' media='all' />
<link rel='stylesheet' id='jetpack-widget-social-icons-styles-css' href='https://css-tricks.com/wp-content/plugins/jetpack/modules/widgets/social-icons/social-icons.css?ver=...' type='text/css' media='all' />
The problem with today's pundits and authors is that, like Adobe, they have no practical wisdom. They are simply the modern counterpart to talking heads. I cannot take someone seriously that writes about web design and obviously knows nothing about... web design. The problem with WordPress is not just the platform, but the malfeasants who peddle themes and plugins, most of which are horrible, and many of which require massive amounts of CSS (usually someone else's).
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Oh good grief! The point of the article at the top was visual appeal not platforms.
WordPress sites are so ubiquitous it's hard not to stumble onto one daily. According to W3techs, WordPress has 59.4% of the CMS marketshare — more than all other systems (eg, Drupal, Joomla) combined.
At any rate, this discussion has derailed into the usual train wreck we so often see in this space. I think I've lost my will to live .
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You're taking the whole thing too seriously. The first link you posted is nothing more than a marketing site, probably not a reputable one, either. The site is really, really badly coded. I can fill your ear about WordPress, but I don't think you'd be willing to listen, so I won't and the last thing I want is for you to lose your will to live.
But it does prove a point, though. Many people really do eschew efficiency and go with WordPress themes and Bootstrap sites.
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Of all of the websites (not just the CMS ones) 1 in 3 sites use WordPress and 1 in 5 sites use Bootstrap (probably boosted by Wordpress). The likes of CNN, Netflix and CSDN all seem to be doing well out of their Bootstrap sites. I even found one using the Yahoo framework dated 2009. The web has not blown up despite all of these seemingly inefficient sites. So I am not sure what we are on about.
Do pretty sites have an advantage over ugly sites? The 4 sites I mentioned don't seem to reflect that. What they have in common is information.
I also paid Responsive Web Design Extensions, Apps, Add-ons and Plugins for Dreamweaver a visit and was slightly amused to find some obscure warning regarding an attribute for JavaScript resources. I reckon, if you enabled gzip compression it would be one of the most efficient sites on the World Wide Web. Maybe even putting the JS files last would help a touch, but I know you do not like doing that
Have a great day, mine is turning into evening.
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Hi Ben,
I'm afraid I don't understand much of what you wrote - nor why.
Yeah, zipping files on the server is generally a waste of time and effort and can corrupt some JavaScript files. I'm just not afraid to challenge conventional wisdom when it is obviously not wise.
Despite the number of people using WordPress and Bootstrap, these are still bloated, poorly devised frameworks. It's kind of like young men's fashion, which only looks good to the young men that wear it, and looks like ill-fitting hand-me-downs to everyone else. But it's fashionable. Not good, not bad. just fashionable.
By the way, CNN has long been one of my least-favorite sites and I never have used Netflix. That said, there is no correlation between the size of a company and the quality of its code.
Oh, and sometimes you will find the odd, inert Bootstrap file linked to a page because someone tried to use it once.
Putting script files last is a recommendation started by Google to compensate for their scripts, which are some of the most inefficient scripts on the planet. You can throw Bootstrap in the dogpile, too. But we can argue that day and night.
I was simply pointing out that sometimes Osgood is not wrong, and if you dig through the snark, he sometimes even makes sense.
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea wrote
Oh good grief! The point of the article at the top was visual appeal not platforms.
As I said in my reply, (#12) a discussion on the design principles mentioned in the article you linked to, would be welcomed, (by me at least) as I wonder how much some of them are relevant to the web now?
We do also need to discuss, (yet again) what are good coding practices. Mainly I think because some of us have posted in the Muse forum, that ex-Muse users should learn how to code. If we cannot say what good coding practices are, how can we then say that the code produced by Muse was bad?
That though should have been a seperate discussion.
As for, (and the bootsrap stat of 1 in 5sites) -
https://forums.adobe.com/people/Nancy+OShea wrote
WordPress sites are so ubiquitous it's hard not to stumble onto one daily. According to W3techs, WordPress has 59.4% of the CMS marketshare — more than all other systems (eg, Drupal, Joomla) combined.
Also requires discussion, because if true, are we fighting nothing more than a 'rear guard action' when it comes to 'custom' coded sites, (Dw extensions or not)?
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Also requires discussion, because if true, are we fighting nothing more than a 'rear guard action' when it comes to 'custom' coded sites, (Dw extensions or not)?
Bootstrap and WordPress are as temporary as any other web technology, though using them is kind of like rubbing your head with lidocaine. The web will continue to evolve... beyond Bootstrap and ever beyond WordPress. And if we can look down from the heavens (or up from somewhere else) we will like find that the whole damn thing is completely unrecognizable... or perhaps quite familiar.
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The problem is AL, if the arguments for using Wordpress and bootstrap are the ones the Dw managment are using or being told, then it is not surprising Dw is in the state it is in.
For me stats are always misleading anyway, as they very rarely say how they are calculated.
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pziecina, I was not advocating the use of WordPress and Bootstrap, the latter I use it myself, I was merely pointing out a fact that there are a multitude of these sites, that make up the flow of traffic on the web.
I am of the meaning that Dreamweaver did the right thing to replace Fluid Grids with something that will stand the time. Bootstrap is not FG, Spry, ADDT et al. that were reliant upon Adobe to be maintained, Bootstrap has a huge community behind it all of whom want to keep making it better. Yes, there are better products out there. But what will change the real outcome compared to a Bootstrap site. How will it affect the user? How will it affect my client? Can the difference be expressed in visitor numbers? In a previous reply there was an article on 5G, which means that speed can no longer be used as a factor. We are being bombarded by ISP's offering unlimited bandwidth. So this can be ruled out as a reason.
All we are left with is the original question, what makes a website visually appealing? I think it to be a reasonable topic to be discussed. Problem in my case is, I do not care about eye candy, I care about content and the information that I can get at a glance without having to wade through countless images and other graphics. I am in, grab the info and I am out. Simple.
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I am not saying don't use wordpress and bootstrap, all I have asked in this discussion is -
The stats, if true for Bootstrap = more than 250 million sites are using bootstrap. So should we (and Dw) even consider using anything else, (lets face it, I have promoted flexbox for years, and Bs 4 uses flexbox. So why should I complain, (open to discussion)).
As for wordpress, I wonder how many of the sites using it actually required a cms.
Edit - Internet connection speeds are still relevant for many, it all depends on the user base being targeted by the site. Catering for 1Gb/sec is fine, but only if the end user has that connection speed.