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proxies and merged clips - reconnecting media

New Here ,
Aug 05, 2018 Aug 05, 2018

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QUESTION: If I edit proxies-- as merged clips-- can I then automatically reconnect to full res media or do I need to create an edit report and recut the full res manually?

DETAILS...

So I am editing 4K footage with separate audio on premiere pro cc 12.1.1 at home. I merged the clips initially only to find that you can't make proxies from merged clips. So then I imported the proxies and then created merged clips from the proxies in order to sync the sound. I'm currently editing those merged clip proxies. Is there a way to automatically reconnect to the full res clips? My fear of course is that I will have to create an edit list and recut it manually. Please say it isn't so!

Thanks for any responses.

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

LEGEND , Aug 06, 2018 Aug 06, 2018

Right-click, 'flatten' ... should be all you need.

Neil

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LEGEND ,
Aug 05, 2018 Aug 05, 2018

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For dual system sound, it may be better to create Transcodes instead.  I recommend Cineform or DNx.

https://blog.frame.io/2017/05/15/sync-clips-in-davinci-resolve/

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New Here ,
Aug 05, 2018 Aug 05, 2018

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Hi Jim,

Thanks so much for the response- I think you are saying to compress the footage using cineform or dnx footage... Unfortunately I have already started editing with the proxies, so am wondering if it's possible to work with this workflow using merged proxy clips. I'm hoping at the end to up convert the full res files- do you know if that's possible?

Thanks again,

Tatiana

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LEGEND ,
Aug 06, 2018 Aug 06, 2018

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Sorry, I don't.  I generally prefer to record sound in camera to avoid this kind of hassle.

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New Here ,
Aug 06, 2018 Aug 06, 2018

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Yeah... IT'S HORRIBLE!

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Explorer ,
Nov 08, 2018 Nov 08, 2018

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On most professional narrative (fiction) shoots recording in camera is not done.  For many reasons, the sound recordist is a separate entity with his or her own gear, and it keeps the camera operation much easier.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 08, 2018 Nov 08, 2018

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the sound recordist is a separate entity with his or her own gear, and it keeps the camera operation much easier.

True, but that's a holdover from the early days of sound film.  In the world of digital cinema, I don't think it needs to be that way, and the industry is worse off for camera companies 'forcing' that continued paradigm with less than outstanding on-board audio in their cinema cameras.

Via SDI or wireless, it'd be a real industry boon for the sound recordist to send his mix to the camera as the new paradigm.

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Explorer ,
Nov 10, 2018 Nov 10, 2018

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That's probably true - but for whatever reason, it's still the case.  For one thing, it allows a sound recordist to gather wild sounds, additional takes, ambience, atmosphere, room tone, etc. without bogging down the post production workflow with additional dead video files.  And the sound recordist can do all that without bothering / being dependent on the camera team.  Further, it allows the sound recordist to independently monitor and change recording levels as needed.  And yeah, there's also unions, which don't allow sound people to touch camera gear and vice versa.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 11, 2018 Nov 11, 2018

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it allows a sound recordist to gather wild sounds, additional takes, ambience, atmosphere, room tone, etc.

Those aren't really synced sounds, though.  It would make perfect sense to continue capturing those independently.  I was theorizing about the industry shifting to a new paradigm for synced sound situations, where the sound guy does all his normal work, he just also sends the mix to camera.

It would certainly smooth out the post process a bit were such a paradigm adopted.

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Explorer ,
Nov 11, 2018 Nov 11, 2018

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Yeah, if there was a way to do this wirelessly it makes sense - a recordist could decide what to send to the camera and what to record to his / her own rig.  Maybe things will head this way!

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LEGEND ,
Nov 12, 2018 Nov 12, 2018

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I do think it would help if pro-level sound was standard on all 'cinema' cameras.

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Explorer ,
Nov 08, 2018 Nov 08, 2018

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Respectfully, I disagree.  Transcoding footage is generally a bad option as it creates lower-quality versions of the files.  Using proxies SHOULD be an excellent option because it allows you to edit effortlessly with small versions of your files (easier on the computer), and then after picture lock you can simply flip back to the full-res versions for color grading and final output.  Transcoding loses quality and consumes a great deal of disk space.

The flaw in Premiere is that while the process of creating proxies is beautifully pain-free, there doesn't seem to be a way to toggle back and forth between proxies and full-res once you have synched sound.  That is a MAJOR flaw and a rather jaw-dropping omission. Makes the whole concept of creating proxies, which Premiere should be commended for, a useless waste of time.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 08, 2018 Nov 08, 2018

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Transcoding footage is generally a bad option as it creates lower-quality versions of the files.

That depends on what you're transcoding from, and to.

Going from ARRIRAW to H.264, yeah the transcodes won't be as good.  Going from H.264 to Cineform or DNx, you won't get any degradation.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 08, 2018 Nov 08, 2018

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proxies SHOULD be an excellent option because it allows you to edit effortlessly with small versions of your files

This is a misunderstanding I see pretty often.

The point of proxies is to increase performance.  In the early days of NLE's, that did indeed mean smaller files as the hard drives just weren't fast enough to keep up.

Today, what reduces performance most often is the high compression (small file size) of the original media.  Larger files is what improves performance.

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Explorer ,
Nov 10, 2018 Nov 10, 2018

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"Today, what reduces performance most often is the high compression (small file size) of the original media.  Larger files is what improves performance."

This is not really true - my computer is unable to play back 5K RED files in real time simply because they are enormous, not because they are small and compressed.  The data rate is the issue.  Making them larger would in no way improve the performance.  My proxies need to be about 1/4 the size, with more compression (for example, .h264 is a very compressed but very fast codec), in order for my computer to have a prayer of playing them back. 

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LEGEND ,
Nov 10, 2018 Nov 10, 2018

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Those RED files ... what format are they? RAW, some form of LOG, ProRes, what?

That could make a big difference also.

H.264 files are simply a ton harder on the cores/threads and RAM of the CPU than intraframe media like Cineform, DNXHD/R or ProRes are at the same frame-size and rate. No question on that, as there is far more de-encoding and de-compressing to do.

Most modern computers can handle simple throughput a lot easier than the work of preparing H.264 for playback. If a rig can't handle throughput of a say 1280x720 Cineform, it's not gonna handle anything.

RED files can be rather complex in and of themselves.

Neil

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Explorer ,
Nov 10, 2018 Nov 10, 2018

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They are .R3D files, so yes, raw.  Point taken about the .h264 compression being processor intensive.  I'm not a big fan of that one anyway. I made my proxies as 1/4 size ProRes Proxy files, and that is working very nicely.  I can generally handle 2K .R3D files natively with no problem on this machine, but 5K is just too big.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 10, 2018 Nov 10, 2018

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Yea, 5k raw is a slog. Quarter size ProRes is a great choice though.

And yes, union shoots can be very picky about who does what.

Neil

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LEGEND ,
Nov 11, 2018 Nov 11, 2018

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This is not really true - my computer is unable to play back 5K RED files in real time simply because they are enormous, not because they are small and compressed.

I think you missed the part where I said "most often".

I say that believing most folks using Premiere Pro are editing H.264 media.

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Explorer ,
Nov 11, 2018 Nov 11, 2018

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Fair enough.  Although there are a lot of pro / larger projects being edited on Premiere these days.  I'm seeing the premiere logo more and more in end credits on major films. When the alternative is Avid you get a lot of younger folks who have grown up on the more intuitive Premiere who are starting to age into the pro gigs.  Still a ways to go before Avid is overturned as the industry standard but Premiere is certainly more responsive to users and I think poised to become a real competitor to Avid.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 08, 2018 Nov 08, 2018

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Transcoding...consumes a great deal of disk space.

Video editing requires LOTS of storage.  I find it best to accommodate that.

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New Here ,
May 27, 2019 May 27, 2019

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I am currently working on a project where I received the full res footage already uploaded into a project file and audio synced and now I can't convert to proxies.  Is there a work around for this?  I've been grinding away with the hi res 4k footage but very slowly.  I was hoping to find a way to convert to proxies so I can work faster!!

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LEGEND ,
Aug 06, 2018 Aug 06, 2018

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Does you original media video have audio also?

If so make multi-cam sequences of them and the second audio then "flatten" those, and use as your clips.

PrPro can even take a bin of say six separate video clips and six second-audio clips and properly make six new sequences for you. Flatten all and you have six "clips" as you wish.

And you can make proxies as you wish.

Neil

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New Here ,
Aug 06, 2018 Aug 06, 2018

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Hi Neil thanks so much for this suggestion, I didn't know about it.

YES the original clips have in-camera (bad) audio. Just to clarify: I should create multi-cam sequences with the full res footage to sync audio and video. I then flatten those into full res synced clips, and then create the proxies from there? Can you confirm that's the workflow?

That makes sense to me. Of course it sucks that I have to recut everything I've done so far but what can you do... at least it would help me moving forward!

Thanks for this,

Tatiana

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LEGEND ,
Aug 06, 2018 Aug 06, 2018

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Yes, I do believe that should work. If you have audio or video heads or tails sticking out one or both ends, do a quick trim with Q (head) and W (tail) before proxies.

Neil

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