XMP files

[simonbrattphotography]

Hi

I am fairly new to lightroom, but a long time photoshop user.

Three questions that are probably really simple, but i cant find the answer.

1. XMP files, ( I know what they are... now). My LR has the default settings of writing XMP files. I know the pros and cons of not having them but if you dont create them are you soley reliant on having LR to be able to see yor edited CR2 file, and therefore are you more prone to losing all the edits for a CR2 file if you somehow lose the LR catalog.

I 'feel' having the XMP files always created, and then back up my files everytime i do a file backup, that im more likely to not lose my edits.

2. My CR2 icon files in Finder dont preview "show" the amendments (XMP data), is there a way for the previews to automatically reflect the CR2 edits (XMP data)?

3. Are there other programes that can read (and apply) the XMP data to the CR2 files? or are we, again, soley reliant on adobe to be able to apply the XMP edits in the future? I just wonder if I (we) move away from Adobe in the future, are some of our older CR2 files only going to be viewable as the native file, ie without the (XMP) edits?

thanks for the help

Simon

[Jao vdL]

1. Yes, the xmp files do provide an extra layer of security to preserve your edits in case of a catastrophe. It is unlikely that you need it but can be good. Also note that it can slow down Lightroom considerably if you have this enabled.

2. No not if you stick with the CR2 files. It is possible if you use dng files instead of CR2. You can update the preview in dng files from Lightroom and finder will pick the updated previews up for the icon.

3. No just Lightroom and ACR. Nothing else understands the edits from Lightroom. In the case that Adobe goes bankrupt (not very likely as they are highly profitable) and your software stops working completely, you won't be able to access your edits. The only insurance against that is to export 16-bit prophotoRGB tiffs from every file.

[JohanElzenga]

Edits in the XMP file can only be fully read by Adobe software. There are a few third party apps that can read part of it, but none of them read all edits. Other metadata like keywords are universal, and can be read by many applications.

[Jao vdL]

Now if something really catastrophic were to happen to Adobe that puts them out of business (again extremely unlikely), my guess is that somebody would figure out how to translate the xmp settings edits to other software and approximate the rendering. The settings you see in the xmp file are not hard to understand.

[JP Hess]

I'm probably one who is more nontraditional than most. I have been using Lightroom for years, and is always relied on the catalog to store my editing and have not saved XMP files. I have backed up my catalog on a weekly basis. Over the years I have only found it necessary to restore a backup catalog one time. There are those who probably feel that I am walking on the edge and flirting with disaster, but my workflow has served me well for a long time.

[JohanElzenga]

JimHess  wrote

I'm probably one who is more nontraditional than most. I have been using Lightroom for years, and is always relied on the catalog to store my editing and have not saved XMP files. I have backed up my catalog on a weekly basis. Over the years I have only found it necessary to restore a backup catalog one time. There are those who probably feel that I am walking on the edge and flirting with disaster, but my workflow has served me well for a long time.

Same here. Using XMP as backup is not very effective. XMP sidecar files are also not intended as backup in the first place. You will lose quite a few things that aren't stored in XMP sidecar files, such as virtual copies, stacks, collection memberships, edit history and publishing services. Backup your catalog regularly. I backup my catalog on quit if I made changes during that session.

[kentdesign]

I for one, really like converting my original camera files to .DNG. The DNG is like a container that incorporates all the changes into one box. And now other software can read DNG so your edits are there when you need them.

[JohanElzenga]

kentdesign  wrote

I for one, really like converting my original camera files to .DNG. The DNG is like a container that incorporates all the changes into one box. And now other software can read DNG so your edits are there when you need them.

Nope, unfortunately that is not true. Yes, other software can read DNG, but that does not mean this software can also read the edits that Lightroom or Camera Raw made to the DNG. The exact same limitations apply as with XMP sidecar files. Most third party software won't read any edits at all, a few apps can read a subset of the edits. None can read them all.

[john beardsworth]

With a DNG, other software can read the results of the LR/ACR edits - the embedded preview. So even if you no longer have any Adobe software on the computer, other software (PhotoMechanic is one example) can output the photo precisely as it was in LR/ACR.

Adjustments are only one part of one's work - keywords and other metadata are in the DNG.

[JohanElzenga]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/john+beardsworth  wrote

With a DNG, other software can read the results of the LR/ACR edits - the embedded preview. So even if you no longer have any Adobe software on the computer, other software (PhotoMechanic is one example) can output the photo precisely as it was in LR/ACR.

Providing you saved updated previews, that is. And because that is a separate menu (Metadata - Update DNG Preview & Metadata) and not the better known 'Save Metadata to File' with its Cmd-S / Ctrl-S shortcut, I wonder how many people do that or even know that.

Apart from that I don't feel that having a jpeg preview with edits would qualify as "your edits are there when you need them", at least not in my book.

[john beardsworth]

We're in danger of  splitting hairs over whether "edits" mean the same as "adjustment parameters". But in one sense having the results of ACR/LR adjustments available elsewhere does "mean this software can also read the edits that Lightroom or Camera Raw made to the DNG", and it is a distinct advantage that DNG has over the use of proprietary raw files and XMP sidecars.

[JohanElzenga]

I wouldn't call it splitting hairs. I shoot in raw and I do so for a reason. If I would ever stop using Lightroom and move to another raw-converter, I would ideally like to see that other application read my Lightroom settings and apply them in the same non-destructive way. Unfortunately that is not going to happen. Some applications may read a subset of the Lightroom settings, but because they use another raw engine they will never produce the exact same results. At best the results will be acceptable, in a lot of cases they won't even be that. And using DNG instead of proprietary raw is not going to change any of that. All it does is produce Lightroom-rendered JPEG preview, but I can easily export Lightroom-rendered JPEGs myself if that is what I want.

[JohanElzenga]

BTW, I just checked what happens to the embedded DNG preview if you have set 'Automatically Write Changes to XMP' in your catalog settings. The embedded preview does not get updated in that case! You really have to use that special Metadata - Update DNG Preview & Metadata menu. I'm pretty sure that many, if not most DNG-users don't know that. They think they'll have an updated preview, but in reality they don't.

[simonbrattphotography]

Great, useful responses, learning lots, thanks.

Couple of points.

My "Metadata - Update DNG Preview & Metadata" is greyed out, when  and how can you use that setting

Taking everything else thats been said into account, I feel now im on the 'adobe' LR track, it sort of makes you feel you are on it for life. It pretty much locks you in to using it once your committed to using it. Giving it up later on is going to be a whole lotta pain.

Even DNG files dont hold all the edit data (although i expect in reality, the edit in the DNG file would be enough for most people in the event of a necessity move fro adobe)

Also someone said, "i backup my catalog everytime i exit LR" which is fine until your laptop, desktop dies. The you are reliant on the last seperate you did. LR seems to keep a historical number of backups on exit, so when i backup onto a seperate portable HD, it take all of those historical backups, probably useful incase one of those is duff?

One point i dont think has been answered (unless i missed it) is the preview icon of the CR2 file. Can the icon preview (IMG001.CR2) on the mac Finder be visually updated? otherwise it looks like the original CR2 (which i guess it really is).

[john beardsworth · Accepted solution]

simonb9342883  wrote

Taking everything else thats been said into account, I feel now im on the 'adobe' LR track, it sort of makes you feel you are on it for life. It pretty much locks you in to using it once your committed to using it. Giving it up later on is going to be a whole lotta pain.

Also someone said, "i backup my catalog everytime i exit LR" which is fine until your laptop, desktop dies. The you are reliant on the last seperate you did. LR seems to keep a historical number of backups on exit, so when i backup onto a seperate portable HD, it take all of those historical backups, probably useful incase one of those is duff?

One point i dont think has been answered (unless i missed it) is the preview icon of the CR2 file. Can the icon preview (IMG001.CR2) on the mac Finder be visually updated? otherwise it looks like the original CR2 (which i guess it really is).

I don't think that's true. Or at least as far as LR Classic is concerned, Adobe are scrupulous about letting you leave with your photos and the work you've done on them. Even if you no longer subscribe, LR still works - just Develop and Map are disabled. Because LR leaves images in their folders and writes adjustments and IPTC metadata in a standard format, you can move to other applications if you decide to end the link to Adobe. Capture One can read adjustments and IPTC from LR's XMP, for example, and other apps seem to follow that pattern. But turn it around and try to get your work out of Adobe's competitors - no other app reads work done in C1, while getting your adjustments out of Apple's Aperture was a pain.

Do keep a backup of the catalogue, and keep it separately from the computer. That might be on an external drive or even in the cloud.

You can't change the icon in Finder.

[simonbrattphotography]

Thanks John,

Thats interesting, I didnt know that (there's a lot of things i dont know). Great info thanks.

[JohanElzenga]

simonb9342883  wrote

Great, useful responses, learning lots, thanks.

Couple of points.

My "Metadata - Update DNG Preview & Metadata" is greyed out, when  and how can you use that setting

You probably have a proprietary raw file (or a jpeg) selected, not a DNG.

[simonbrattphotography]

ah yes, i only use CR2's. Never saw the point of DNG's , but now maybe.....

[Jao vdL]

>One point i dont think has been answered (unless i missed it) is the

preview icon of the CR2 file. Can the icon preview (IMG001.CR2) on the mac

Finder be visually updated? otherwise it looks like the original CR2 (which

i guess it really is).

I answered this above. You cannot update the preview for proprietary raw

files. You can only do this for dng using the menu item. The only advantage

dng has over raw+xmp is that you have a single file to move around and that

you can update the built-in jpeg. You do not increase the accessibility of

the edits in any way except for providing a low quality jpeg copy embedded

in the file(i.e. not trivial to access if you wanted just that) if you

remember to update the preview.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:44 AM simonb9342883 <forums_noreply@adobe.com>

[simonbrattphotography]

Thanks Jao, very interesting, sorry i didnt get it earlier.

[DdeGannes]

I guess I could also be considered a nontraditional user of the Adobe Creative Cloud applications. I do not save to xmp from Lightroom since the fact that I do not have to manage a sidecar file for my raw files is a major reason for using Lightroom for managing and editing my raw files.

Regular backups of my Catalog file is fine for me, as all my files are personal work so I am not committed to protect paying clients.

when I have to utilize Photoshop CC I would utilize the ‘edit in function to send the image to Photoshop’. Since the launch of Lightroom in 2006, I have not utilized Adobe Camera Raw to open a raw file directly.

Presently there are three other applications on my computer that can process my raw files.