Why (or why not) use Basic Paragraph style?

[Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com]

Over lunch today with a design colleague, our conversation turned to when and when not to use InDesign's built-in Paragraph style, [Basic Paragraph].

What's your opinion?

• Do you use it?
  • If so, why?
  • If not, why not?

[Scott Falkner]

I do not. In fact I make sure I don’t even base any styles on BPS. Furthermore it was a poorly considered feature and should never have been added.

Why? Because any changes to BPS will certainly mess up formatting when copying and pasting text between documents. Try it. Create two files then enter text in one document. Edit the definition to BPS then copy and paste text from that document to the other. The appearance of the text changes because the base definition of BPS is different in the two documents. It’s only a problem maker, it is not a problem solver.

[Steve Werner]

I agree with Scott, and for the same reason. That's the way I teach in my InDesign classes.

I just checked the Bible (actually called "Real World Adobe InDesign") and they say the same thing.

[Barb Binder]

I agree, Bevi. We spend a lot of time on this forum answering questions about why text reformats when simply copied from one document and pasted another (and that's why).

Instead, I create new parent styles based on [No Paragraph Style] and like Steve, that's what I teach my students.

~Barb

[Laubender]

Hi Bevi,

I also agree with Scott.

I'm avoiding [Basic Paragraph Style] as best as I can.

Also agree fully to what Barb says.

Regards,
Uwe

[Geоrge]

I do never not.

[Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com]

So the only problem is that when copying/pasting text from other files, the incoming Basic Paragraph (BP) overwrites the BP style in the receiving document.

That's what I thought. We do a lot of automated publishing systems and need to use Basic Paragraph in those workflows. Personally, when I copy/paste between documents, I always kill the incoming formatting as a default procedure.

If Adobe corrected this problem of overwriting the receiving BP style, would that make Base Paragraph a "non-evil" style?

This has been discussed in other forums, but one solution is to give designers the chance to select what happens to the incoming formatting during copy/paste. In MS Word (I know, another "evil" entity for designers), a right-click before pasting gives several options: paste without formatting, merge the formatting, use the incoming formatting, paste as a graphic, etc. It's extremely useful for publishing from Word and helps quickly move content from one document to another while controlling the formatting.

Sometimes you want the incoming formatting, sometimes you don't. The options give you control and options.

Would something like that help?

[Scott Falkner]

This would not help because it would change the way text is pasted when using paragraph formatting. Let us say I have two documents, Document A and Document B. Both use a paragraph style called Body Copy, but the definition is different in the two documents. If I copy text formatted as Body Copy from Document A it should paste into Document B using Document B’s definition of Body Copy. This is how paragraph styles have worked in InDesign for as long as I can remember. The change you suggest will remove that feature.

The correct change, the only one that makes sense, is to remove Basic Paragraph from the default styles in InDesign. It was added in, I think CS2 or CS3. InDesign never suffered for want of a predefined and undeletable paragraph style before then and it will cruise along quite well without it in the future.

[Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com]

I think CS2 or CS3. InDesign never suffered for want of a predefined and undeletable paragraph style before then and it will cruise along quite well without it in the future.

IIRC, it was added in order to program some of InDesign's automation features. But that was quite a while ago so I've forgotten which specific ones. Maybe variables, TOCs, and other features that generate text.

The change you suggest will remove that feature

I think you misread my suggestion. It doesn't change the long-standing behavior at all.

All it does is give you options for how you want to handle the incoming formatting: choose a) to use the incoming formatting, b) use the receiving formatting, or c) as unformatted text.

Option b is what we have now, so there's nothing lost to you. That could also be set as the default if the designer doesn't choose another option.

Nothing lost. More options gained.

But the larger question is: why does Basic Paragraph not behave like other styles when text is copy/pasted? Why does the incoming style definition overwrite the existing definition?

At the very least, Adobe needs to fix that bug.

So the request might be two-steps:

1. Fix the bug of Basic Paragraph overwriting the existing style, and
2. Give more options to the designers for controlling what comes in and which formatting.

[rob day]

But the larger question is: why does Basic Paragraph not behave like other styles when text is copy/pasted? Why does the incoming style definition overwrite the existing definition?

I think it depends on if the [Basic Paragraph] style has been overridden and not redefined in the source document.

So here I've overridden the font, size, and color, but haven't redefined the style—[+]

Nothing changes when I paste, but the text with [Basic paragraph] in the destination is still overridden

If I redefine [Basic Paragraph] in the source document (no +), it gets the destination's [Basic Paragraph] definition on a paste

[manic_sanjiv]

Hello Bevi,

I try to answer your question based on my experience and knowledge. I hope this is assumed answer not perfect answer.

Why to use Basic Paragraph style?

I) If you copy text from notepad and paste it in MS word, it will apply default style right?.

Same logic for indesign instead of “default” it named as [Basic Paragraph Style].

II) If the user is a beginner and does not know how to create their own paragraph styles the default "Basic paragraph style" may help them.

III) If the user export the document to HTML, the basic paragraph style sheet acts as name for css. Without the basic paragraph style the css cannot be named.

IV) If the basic paragraph style is applied by default and if you plan to change the font in future you can double click and change any characteristics you want.

V) Another advantage is for the scriptwriters, Say for example if the scriptwriters plan to convert all basic paragraph style applied font to table. For that they need to call using basic paragraph style name.

VI) Using “Find/change” we can use that as a conditional in “Find Format Option” text if basic paragraph style is applied.

Why not to use Basic Paragraph style?

In my case its an advantage to use basic paragraph style so, I don’t know the answer for this question.

Why incoming Basic paragraph style overwrites?

When we copy from document to document it has a purpose to overwrite, if it is not overwrite the default font and font size it will change every where you applied basic paragraph style in the document, some time it may helpful, but most of the time it will mess up your document. This could be one reason.

It's not only for paragraph style even, if you check with the character style has "none" when there is no text is available. If you check

with layer by default, it has a default "Layer 1". I hope everything has some purpose.

I agree with your second option

• "Give more options to the designers for controlling what comes in and which formatting"

[rob day]

Also the fact that all InDesign documents include a [Basic Paragraph] style that can be edited but not renamed is the root of the problem—every InDesign document has a potential style conflict that has to be resolved because a style named [Basic Paragraph] is always included.

With no documents open, I create an in house default style(s) based on [No Paragraph Style], which will be included in every new document I create. I can then base all new styles on my default, which can be renamed if necessary. Doing that means I can create a consistent default set of hyphenation, justification and keep rules for body text. The Justification and Hyphenation dialogs alone have a total of 21 different settings, and I don't want to be recreating my Paragraph Style preferences for those settings every time a create a new doc.

[winterm]

manic_sanjiv  wrote

If the user is a beginner and does not know how to create their own paragraph styles the default "Basic paragraph style" may help them.

The user should learn how to create and use styles in a right way ASAP. One shouldn't expect to jump in InDesign and work 'like a pro' since the first day.

Now the user starts the app and sees a pre-defined and ready-to-use Paragraph style in a list, and thinks 'this is a reliable thing'. It's not!

*

Imagine editable [Black] and [Registration] color swatches, heh? [Paper] is a different beast, not a color, actually.

System doesn't allow you to alter even the default KB shortcuts list (user must create his own copy), and this is for a reason.

BPS, as it is now, is beyond me.

Basically, Scott Falkner already said everything about BPS (post #1), what must be said.

[Dan Rodney]

To add another voice, I do not customize Basic Paragraph. I like to know that this is factory standard and can reset text if needed. That and issues with copying/pasting between files.

[Willi Adelberger]

I never use the given basic style.

I create my own. I name it p.

And I create h, h1, h2, etc.

If I have another style on p I name it as a class, like p.distance, or h2.frame, so I see the influence of a change to other paragraph styles.

I keep the names as short as possible to be able to see them complete in any dialog box where they might appear and I use the very same names and style structure in any document. That helps to work faster and I can copy and paste content from one document to the other and the style is adapted according to the definition of the hosting document.

[Randy Hagan]

I do use it, though I've modified it to use the standard type spec for all my promotional materials.

If you're not, it may be worth it to you to consider adapting the style for your own convenience. The more particular you are about your body text, the more value you'll get from modifying your [Basic Paragraph] style to fit.

[rob day]

I do use it, though I've modified it to use the standard type spec for all my promotional materials.

There's not a problem with that if all of your documents share the same [Basic Paragraph] specs.

It becomes a problem when if you share or collaborate on a project and the text gets pasted into another document where [Basic Paragraph] no longer matches, or even when the source styles are based on adifferent [Basic Paragraph]:

So here I have some text with a paragraph style named Text applied. The Text style is based on [Basic Paragraph].

If I paste the text into a new document with no paragraph styles, you would expect it to paste in unchanged because there is no conflicting paragraph style named Text, but that's not the case because Text is based on BPS:

If I base my Text style on [No Paragraph Style], the text pastes unchanged:

[Randy Hagan]

Only if you accept the change when you open someone else's document.

And, if internally, you don't standardize on a consistent set of base settings (including any changed [Basic Paragraph] and other default styles) across the organization.

Also, FWIW, why it's worth it to send out PDFs for review instead of source documents. It's much easier and consistent to consolidate comments placed on the pages, and have one person make revision,s than it is to find and apply quality control to changes made in the document with no comments. That's how mistakes creep into documentation during review, and is fraught with peril.

[rob day]

Only if you accept the change when you open someone else's document.

I'm not sure I'm following, InDesign (2018) doesn't warn me if I open a document where its BPS doesn't match my application default or the frontmost document—I can have multiple docs open all with different BPS definitions. I think I would have to use Load Styles... to override one of the mismatched BPS definitions—a paste is always going to use the destination's definition.

It's common practice to cut and paste between documents, and that's where BPS can create the unexpected results everyone is complaining about.

And, if internally, you don't standardize on a consistent set of base settings (including any changed [Basic Paragraph] and other default styles) across the organization.

It's easy enough avoid BPS altogether and create your own default styles based on [No Paragraph Style], and from there create other styles based your house defaults.