1 2 Previous Next 52 Replies Latest reply: Jan 29, 2009 11:57 AM by badchess RSS

    indoor sports & lights

    badchess Community Member
      I was doing some roller derby shots, either with iso 3200 or with a bounced flash.

      I liked the brighter photos a lot, but didn't like the red eyes. Even with actions or the red eye remover in cs3 it still adds work.

      So, I was thinking of maybe getting some sort of extra lighting (maybe an alien bee B1600).

      Anyone have any experience/advice with this sort of thing? Technique, placement and/or purchasing advice?
        • 1. Re: indoor sports & lights
          Community Member
          You'll need permission and cooperation to put lighting into any sporting arena. Study the SI basketball shots to see what they do, but typically, and this comes from a friend who used to set up lighting for them, was to have a strobe setup at each corner of the court, in the rafters, of course. There was one quad tube head in each corner with four Speedotron 4800 packs attached to each head, for a total of 16 packs, to give the shortest recycling and flash duration combined with enough output to matter. That's the expensive way to do it.
          • 2. Re: indoor sports & lights
            badchess Community Member
            Thanks for the info. They are cool with adding some lights.

            I don't want to do it the expensive way, however...
            • 3. Re: indoor sports & lights
              Hudechrome-sd9sPI Community Member
              No end to what you can do if you are SI or equiv.!

              Keeping extraneous triggers out of the system has to be a big consideration.
              • 4. Re: indoor sports & lights
                Community Member
                "Keeping extraneous triggers out of the system has to be a big consideration. "

                Maybe things are different now with the latest Pocket Wizards, but they used to hard wire all those packs together and run a sync cord down to the photographer, as there were more than one "system" of lights up there, and of course, you wouldn't want optical slaves being set off by audience camera flash.
                • 5. Re: indoor sports & lights
                  Community Member
                  "Thanks for the info. They are cool with adding some lights.

                  I don't want to do it the expensive way, however... "

                  Are you in an area where you could rent lighting? I realize that not many are going to want to go the full SI route, but knowing what they do at least gives you the perspective to decide how far you want to or can afford to go. Whatever you do, I would seriously consider at least two lightheads. That will help get you more interesting light and make it much easier to shoot in more than one direction.

                  It all reminds me of shooting Robert Earl Keen at Gruene Hall in Gruene, Tx. - one of those old dance halls with chicken wire for windows and a really old wood floor. I put several Balcar heads in the rafters and ran sync cords to both sides of the stage. Mother's Day '04 and just the setup had me so sweaty that Robert asked me if I had just taken a shower.
                  • 6. Re: indoor sports & lights
                    Allen Wicks Community Member
                    What camera system are you using?
                    • 7. Re: indoor sports & lights
                      Hudechrome-sd9sPI Community Member
                      Actually, I was thinking of wireless sync, as sync cords are becoming a thing of the past. So some sort of encryption would need to apply, from the simplicity of a dedicated frequency to the more complex.

                      It is a great advantage, if this photo is a result:
                      http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1bVaWwREvHChbxPNx2VVx36W2gd9M

                      BTW, a most thrilling game! And a superb moment that turned it all around!:-)
                      • 8. Re: indoor sports & lights
                        Community Member
                        I think the PocketWizards today, which I believe have 32 channels would be fine. That's all I use even though I carry sync cords just in case. The first generation of wireless syncs only had two or four channels and were not very reliable, but they are very good now.
                        • 9. Re: indoor sports & lights
                          John_Cornicello_Photo Community Member
                          Yes, the Pocket Wizard MultiMax units have 32 channels. And I believe that you can have the PocketWizard II (4 channel) units customized to have private channels (I don't know how much that customization costs, though).
                          • 10. Re: indoor sports & lights
                            Nick Decker Community Member
                            Are you guys familiar with the new kid on the block?

                            http://www.radiopopper.com/

                            They sell one model that does the same thing as the Pocket Wizards (for considerably less money), and another that allows to you use the TTL systems of Nikon and Canon.

                            I'm fairly heavily invested in Pocket Wizards, but if I wasn't, I'd definitely be looking at them seriously.
                            • 11. Re: indoor sports & lights
                              Allen Wicks Community Member
                              Phillip has not responded, but on Nikon systems Nikon SB-800 flash units work very well TTL wirelessly and inexpensively for those kinds of pix if you can get within 30 feet or so of the remotes. I use them in ballrooms and such, typically aiming everything at the ceiling. No issues that I have found with misfires from other folks' strobes.

                              More flash units reduces the load and reduces recycle time. Also, always using all 5 AA's that the SB-800s allow significantly improves performance. Of course one can add battery packs, but I have found them to be unnecessary baggage.
                              • 12. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                Hudechrome-sd9sPI Community Member
                                I looked at the website and read some of the information. Here is a quote from the site:

                                "Weve learned a lot about modern manufacturing in this process, and its actually much easier to get a product from schematic to outbound shipping boxes than you would think."

                                Ya Think? What? These guys have not done this before, AFAIK. I would be rather careful at the outset and let it ripen on the vine, so to speak. Just because they appear as newbies (to me, anyway) doesn't mean they will not have a good product. I would hope and expect that they engaged a competent, experienced designer for this product, and all should be well.

                                In any case, that statement needs to be pulled, IMO!
                                • 13. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                  badchess Community Member
                                  Well, one of the key things is I'm doing this for some friends, (i.e. not getting paid) so I can justify less then a thousand (and the extra tax write-off never hurts) but that leaves me out of the fancy pro high end stuff.

                                  As to transmitters/receivers, here is an upcoming one:

                                  http://www.alienbees.com/cybersync.html
                                  • 14. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                    badchess Community Member
                                    Last weekend I used a canon D1 (iii) and a 580ex flash.

                                    Worked OK (once I dialed the flash down a bit), but one or two strobes would save me processing work and get a better effect. And it's a tax write off, even if I am not getting paid for this particular job.
                                    • 15. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                      Nick Decker Community Member
                                      >"I would be rather careful at the outset and let it ripen on the vine, so to speak."

                                      Always a good strategy. I've read a couple of independent reviews, using the Radio Poppers in conjunction with Nikon and Canon's TTL systems, and it seems that they perform as advertised. One review, though, noted that in one particular location they encountered some sort of interference and had to move to avoid it.

                                      I love my Pocket Wizards, but it's nice to see them getting some competition.
                                      • 16. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                        badchess Community Member
                                        Or how about a speedotron force 5 (of course I could only afford one right now...)

                                        Any one know how the recycle times of say, a Force 5 compares with a B1600? In case I want to machine gun some shots?
                                        • 17. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                          Allen Wicks Community Member
                                          >so I can justify less then a thousand (and the extra tax write-off never hurts) but that leaves me out of the fancy pro high end stuff.

                                          Just buy more 580EX units at ~$350 each and learn how to use Canon's wireless. My understanding is that it is not as good as the Nikons but that it does work. Perhaps some Canon shooters experienced with 580EX wireless could chime in.

                                          Machine-gunning is also dependent on how much total strobe light you have available. With 3-5 SB-800 units I can machine gun if necessary because each unit dumps only a small portion of its charge with each shot.

                                          Again:
                                          i What camera system are you using?
                                          • 18. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                            badchess Community Member
                                            Sorry, I havn't got much sleep, and I don't understand the question "what camera system are you using"

                                            Currently a 580ex perched atop a 1D (iii). No wireless control beacuse I have no external flashes (thus the questions here).
                                            • 19. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                              badchess Community Member
                                              I'd also be worried about having more 580ex on location, as they are small enough (and useful enough) for someone to steal when I wasn't looking.

                                              That is why I was thinking of pocket wizard/speedtron or alien bees/CyberSync.

                                              Of course for the price of one speedotron http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/196997-REG/Speedotron_1123511_Force_5_Monolight_wit h.html I could get two bees http://www.alienbees.com/b1600.html
                                              • 20. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                John_Cornicello_Photo Community Member
                                                Another thing to consider is that the Pocket Wizards are almost the same price as the flash, and they are even smaller/easier to steal. Need some sort of locking cable or a lot of gaffer's tape.
                                                • 21. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                  badchess Community Member
                                                  Good point John, that had not occurred to me. If you care to make your way down to Tacoma May 3rd you can join me at trying your hand at some roller derby shooting. I'm sure I can get you in for free.
                                                  • 22. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                    badchess Community Member
                                                    I've been thinking of getting a speedotron force 10 setup. I have read some posts about blown fuses with it. Anyone have any experiences like that?
                                                    • 23. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                      Wade S Zimmerman Community Member
                                                      I have never used and blown fuses are sometimes caused by a circuit that was improperly wired, and in a sports environment you might encounter a 220 line now and again as well.

                                                      That will blow your fuses very often and might make it look like the unit.

                                                      So unless it is universal it may be user failure and not the equipment.
                                                      • 24. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                        badchess Community Member
                                                        Well, I'm all about the user error...

                                                        I think it was reviews like this that scared me:

                                                        http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=getItemDetail&Q=&sku=196997&is= REG&si=rev#anchorToReadReviews
                                                        • 25. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                          Community Member
                                                          When I measured the draw on my Balcar A2400's, on fast recharge there was a peak of 27-28 amps immediately after firing, which rapidly diminished as the capacitors filled. Even so, I can put two packs on one 20 amp household circuit and never flip a breaker, because the peak draw is short enough. I would assume that the Speedo tech people would be able to tell you exactly what their draw characteristics are and whether you'll encounter problems or not. The ultra fast recycle time may indeed affect those numbers.
                                                          • 26. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                            Allen Wicks Community Member
                                                            Many typical 110v circuits have some 15 amps components, and breakers lose their tolerance for peaks over time, so a 27 amp peak draw will trip some breakers and not others. What peak load will trip any given circuit's breakers is not predicable in advance.

                                                            I run my power draws on-site through my own fused 15 amp "power bar" extensions. Even though I buy the better ones they are low end and will almost always trip prior to the hardwired circuit I am plugging in to. That is a
                                                            b very
                                                            good thing, because if I know there is an issue I can resolve it at my setup location rather than having to find a building engineer and panel access.
                                                            • 27. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                              Wade S Zimmerman Community Member
                                                              Philip use extension cords and do not put all your units on one line even if they will not pop the breaker.

                                                              I always try to use different lines.

                                                              In a modern household or apartment they seldom have less then four lines and usually have between 100- 200 Amps available. Extension cords you are usually not very far from the other lines.

                                                              Or if doing studio work it is always good to have four lis in the studio and usually two of them are 30 Amps I am certain they are legal.
                                                              • 28. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                badchess Community Member
                                                                Yeah, I was going to run extension cords with surge protectors out of different outlets. I presume this will blow the circuit breakers of the surge protectors rather then turning the lights out in the house.

                                                                Is that right? I'm rather at sea here.

                                                                And thanks for all the help!
                                                                • 29. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                  John_Cornicello_Photo Community Member
                                                                  It depends on what else is on the circuit. What if there is a bunch of stage lighting on the circuit and it is just teetering at about 22 amps. Your flash could trip the house circuit but not trip the breaker in your surge protector.

                                                                  The surge protector's breaker works if you alone are on the circuit. But in many locations there will be other items on the same circuit.
                                                                  • 30. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                    Wade S Zimmerman Community Member
                                                                    OK this is simple. putting lights into any outlet is not what I am talking about at all.
                                                                    You have to access different lines for the units depending on there draw and the power and recycling settings you have set.

                                                                    OK again. if can find out which outlets are on the same line by turning an all the lights you can find and tripping the breakers. I gave you wrong info before I think most modern apartments have like 6 lines plus a dedicated air conditioning line or two. And most houses have between 10 and 12 lines.
                                                                    • 31. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                      badchess Community Member
                                                                      I did wind up sending for a couple of speedotrons. A bit (well, a lot) more money then I had intended to spend, but I didn't want to repeat my tripod experience: Buy a better/more expensive tripod every six months for two years...
                                                                      • 32. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                        Ann Shelbourne Community Member
                                                                        Re: electric outlets:

                                                                        You will usually find that all of the outlets in a single room are on the same circuit.

                                                                        To tap into a different circuit, you will usually need to run an extension cable from elsewhere in the house.
                                                                        • 33. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                          John_Cornicello_Photo Community Member
                                                                          Remember that Philip's question is about shooting a roller derby event in a theater, an arena, or an airplane hangar. Not always as easy to tell which outlets are on what circuit in these situations and who else might be on the circuit.

                                                                          In the theater or arena the sound and lights are usually all well marked and known by the technical staff. But in a rented airplane hangar it might not be so easy to trace and there may not be someone on site that knows the system (spoken from experience of power going out during a performance in a rented hangar).
                                                                          • 34. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                            badchess Community Member
                                                                            At home I'll have control of the power (and if I put the power out it won't be a big deal). Blowing someone elses fuses does make me nervous though.

                                                                            As a neophyte and someone ignorant of the mysteries of electricity (despite having read the book "There are no electrons") If I shoot the lights at less then full power (which I will probably do to increase recycle time) does that reduce the possible of fuse blowing, or do the lights still suck up the same amount of power.
                                                                            • 35. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                              badchess Community Member
                                                                              http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/81

                                                                              An interesting article for those interested in sports lighting.
                                                                              • 36. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                                Allen Wicks Community Member
                                                                                >If I shoot the lights at less then full power (which I will probably do to increase recycle time) does that reduce the possible of fuse blowing, or do the lights still suck up the same amount of power.

                                                                                The
                                                                                i instantaneous
                                                                                peak draw of the flash charging process does not get higher with full-power capacitor discharges. Some circuits and circuit protection devices are more tolerate of mini current draw peaks than others, but obviously the more power you use the more overall demand you add
                                                                                i to all the other loads on a given circuit.

                                                                                Unlike hot lights, in general charging flash units does not add that much demand to a given circuit. It is all about what other loads may be on the circuit (e.g. if video hot lights are plugged into the same circuit).
                                                                                • 37. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                                  badchess Community Member
                                                                                  Last question (maybe). I've got some stuff coming in the mail, but do the pocket wizard come with the correct cable to hook it to a speedotron force 10, or is there a properitary cable I'll need to pick up?
                                                                                  • 38. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                                    John_Cornicello_Photo Community Member
                                                                                    The Pocket Wizards only come with a short PW to Camera cable. You will need a cable with a mini-phone plug on one end (for the Pocket Wizard) and whatever connector the Speedotron has on the other end.

                                                                                    You can easily make the cables yourself or find them at Radio Shack or similar places.
                                                                                    • 39. Re: indoor sports & lights
                                                                                      badchess Community Member
                                                                                      Thanks very much John.
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