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1. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Laurentiu G Todie Mar 19, 2009 12:17 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)soros likes it
(he seems to be a trendsetter) -
2. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ramona Dear Mar 19, 2009 12:24 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman).. sure hope not! -
3. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
(Silkrooster) Mar 19, 2009 4:23 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)If it is, you guys are always more than welcome to use the forum on my website. its pretty much dead do to the spammers. It took to long to get an update to the forum. So it's there if you want it. silkrooster.com -
4. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ann Shelbourne Mar 19, 2009 5:44 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)John Cornicello who was personally involved in setting up this Forum in the first place needs to look into this whole question and quickly too!
My feeling is that Adobe are unlikely to go raiding our images that are hosted on Pixentral or on our own web sites; but the language used in the TOS does appear to give them the right to do so.
John posted a picture of a Harbour Seal on the Test Site for the New Forums yesterday and that Seal photograph is hosted on his own site all of which can be viewed (and could be raided) from the Link that he posted in the Forums.
His site contains a lot of high quality and valuable imagery which I am sure that he does not wish Adobe to be able to grab if they feel like it! -
5. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
LRK 2 Mar 19, 2009 6:51 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)> John Cornicello who was personally involved in setting up this Forum in the first place needs to look into this whole question and quickly too!
And it is the finest, most user friendly and well laid out forum I have ever used. Kudos to John and whoever else set these forums up. -
6. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Mar 19, 2009 7:34 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Well, I guess I am gonna be a contrarian here. A quick look informed me I would have no trouble navigating the new layout, which isn't 'zactly new. -
7. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ramón G Castañeda Mar 19, 2009 7:37 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)A "quick look" comes nowhere near exposing the piss-poor performance and the navigational nightmares. -
8. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
<shep> Mar 19, 2009 8:32 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)>What can one do but move on is this a good or bad thing!?
A bad thing. I like it here and I don't like the look of the new forum at all.
>John Cornicello who was personally involved in setting up this Forum...
>And it is the finest, most user friendly and well laid out forum I have ever used. Kudos to John and whoever else set these forums up.
I agree with Linda. Good job, John. I've found these forums very user friendly, easy to navigate, etc. -
9. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Fred Nirque Mar 19, 2009 8:38 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)I just wish that all the bling-geeks who set up the "industry standard" forums the world over had visited this place first and had seen how it should be done.
Thanks from me as well to John and co for coming up with this format originally. -
10. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Wade S Zimmerman Mar 19, 2009 9:55 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Well I did look at the new forum and I notice there is no photography forum and so the point might be mute.
So it is not likely that it will be a problem and there is no Lounge as well. Only forums about the applications as far as i can see and by the way an easier way to get the name you want to display if it is your own name and you use first and last name is to and underscore between the two names. If you only use one name and underscore after will do as well. -
11. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ramón G Castañeda Mar 19, 2009 11:02 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Wade,
>Well I did look at the new forum and I notice there is no photography forum and so the point might be mute.
Yes, there is a Photography forum in the forums preview. Like all other previews there, it's a snapshot of what this forum here was some twoo weeks ago:
http://adobeforums.adobe.com/community/design_development/photography -
12. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ramón G Castañeda Mar 19, 2009 11:05 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)>Only forums about the applications as far as i can see
Lots of folks miss the gray bars at the bottom of the index page. They have no icons, but when you click on them, submenus drop down to show nested forums. -
13. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ann Shelbourne Mar 20, 2009 1:24 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Another less than brilliant bit of web site designing!
I wonder how many people will ever find these "hidden" Forums.
They really have made a complete hash of this whole misguided project. -
14. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ozpeter Mar 20, 2009 1:37 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)If you use the dropdown box all the forums are listed. Took me 15 seconds at most to work that out the first time. But I'd agree that there should be a more obvious way of selecting the forums. And the listing should be in some sort of obvious order! -
15. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ramón G Castañeda Mar 20, 2009 5:38 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)>If you use the dropdown box all the forums are listed.
Not in alphabetical order, or any kind of order. :D
>And the listing should be in some sort of obvious order!
I hadn't reached that part of your post. Agreed. -
16. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Wade S Zimmerman Mar 20, 2009 5:53 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)I looked at the tabs or categories but did not come up with Discussion Forums and general Forums did not show things like Photography and certainly photography does not belong under Design Forums.
Never ever heard of anyone referring to Photography as design. -
17. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ramón G Castañeda Mar 20, 2009 8:47 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Wade,
Even here, this Photography forum is under Design and Development.
Look at the breadcrumbs at the top and bottom of this page:
Support < User to User Forums < Adobe Design and Development Forums < Photography -
18. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Mar 20, 2009 10:45 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)If you had to maneuver through some of the applications I have to just to get a simple job done, the new forum is a cakewalk.
But I will defer to the others here, as you all have more experience than I do in these forums. -
19. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Wade S Zimmerman Mar 20, 2009 10:59 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Who even pays attention to the category you go to Photography, but putting it into design and development is a bit out of whack.
But I think it is not going to be as successful as it is and as we know I have invested a great deal of time and patience in making this particular an endearing and welcoming environment.
And now all that work has gone to naught. -
20. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ann Shelbourne Mar 20, 2009 11:12 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)This is how I feel too.
I have also spent a lot of time filling in questionnaires in the Forum Comments & Announcements Forum concerning future forum content and format as have numerous other people and all our requests and suggestions have been totally ignored.
The new forum design is frankly the worst I have ever encountered it is even uglier, more convoluted and SLOWER than the old MM Forums.
:( -
21. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
greenjumpyone Mar 21, 2009 5:11 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Wow. I have really come to enjoy this forum, warts and all. I do hope we don't lose it and lose the ability to post images that we retain all the rights to. :(
If this goes away, know that I will miss you guys! -
22. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Wade S Zimmerman Mar 21, 2009 6:58 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)I think it died!
I should clarify before I unduly upset anyone.
For me! -
23. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Allen Wicks Mar 21, 2009 7:36 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Agreed the new Forum design is very poor. Why in the world would one intentionally apply a Windoze look and feel to forum design? -
24. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
shoot me now-d3u3se Mar 21, 2009 8:22 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)>Why in the world would one intentionally apply a Windoze look and feel...
Because of its inherent superiority? -
25. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
LRK 2 Mar 21, 2009 8:58 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Because we don't really know what the future holds, on many levels, I would like to take a moment to express my heartfelt gratitude for the years of interaction and friendships we've built in both this forum, and the Photoshop Forum.
My life, and even my business, has been profoundly affected by the generous advice, interaction, encouragement, and constructive criticism I've received by so many of you.
I would like to share with you a few specifics of how my life has been enriched.
First off, I never would have even picked up a SLR had it not been for those of you who continually encouraged me when I was looking to upgrade from the Nikon 990 to another point and shoot. Not only have I been through three SLR's, but since that time I've actually being able to generate income in the realm of photography. Among some of the jobs that have come to me are weddings, portraiture, children, families, product, and more. I am aware of my limitations though and dont presume to be more than I am. For this reason I have turned down jobs that I either felt were either out of the realm of my expertise, too big for me, or too stressful. But I cannot say the opportunities have not been there.
The changes in my life spread farther because of the skills many of you have helped me acquire. I'm in my third year serving on the Board of Directors for our local pro photographer's guild and have received several awards for various volunteer work, both on a local, state, and even national level related to design work submitted to the FPP and even the PPA in both 2007 and 2008. This would never have happened had some of you not been there for me when I asked for advice.
Going farther back in history, I will never forget one of my first experiences with the Adobe Forums. I started a thread about Photo Retouching & Restoration in the Photoshop Forum. At that time I was restoring an old photo pro bono for a friend. I posted my progress along the way, and received tons of advice. This was when I became familiar with Wade, Ann, Bonnie, Scott, Neil, Buko, Chris Cox, Ken, LT, MO, and several others. Im trying to remember the name of that nice guy from Tampa also.
The project went on for about three months if I remember right. This was the beginning of my infamous long threads. Just about the time I thought the retouch job was good enough I would get another constructive criticism on something. Scott Weichert in particular. I can remember laughing as hard as Ive ever laughed. I thought I was done and ready to go, and Scott pointed out that it could be better. This would mean disassembling some of my hundreds of layers to go back and get it right. Oh, and I remember Wade's advice on finding and creating more hair where there seemed to be only mold. :-)
Then when I needed business advice, I started another infamous long thread, having to do with Business Pricing. Again, I received an outpouring of advice that truly made it possible for me to gain the confidence to charge more. I still have trouble with this area, but at least I can now charge enough to make it worth being in business, for which Ive also been blessed.
One milestone that was crossed was when Ken Nielson sent me his sample package on how to setup Job Tickets, and keep track of client jobs, etc. This was after having lost $500 on a client job where there was confusion regarding all the different requests at different times. Kens timely advice has saved me from making the same mistake again. To this day I think about Ken when I set up a new job ticket.
Others also helped with business. Bonnie was also particularly helpful with business, in so many ways, as has been others such a Wade and Ann and more...
There is so much more I could go on to share with you all that would one way or another be related to some advice or support I received here at the forums.
Oh, and I would be remiss if I didnt mention my first experience using Studio Lights at a Valentines Banquet for portraits. I would never have pulled it off had it not been for the help I received from some of you, such as Ann, Phil, Phil Scarsbrook, Allen, Wade, and so many more. There was even the added help of phone calls from Ann Shelbourne and Phil Scarsbrook when I needed the extra help.
Im running of time as Ive been asked to take pictures at a baby shower today so this is a rush post, and Im sure Ive forgotten to mention some of you but please know that I am ever so grateful for the unselfishness, patience, and generosity that you all have shown to me over the years.
Whatever happens in the future, my prayers are that each of you will be blessed in some special way!
Much love to you all
Linda
P.S. A few more who've been a blessing at different points in time are Cathy Clapper, Cindy, Patrice, Bruce Fraser (whom we all miss)... I have to go for now, but you all know who you are. Forgive me if I've drawn a blank on more names. -
26. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ramona Dear Mar 21, 2009 9:52 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)wow! ... is this goodbye? -
27. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
greenjumpyone Mar 21, 2009 11:07 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Ramona,
probably not truly goodbye, but the new fora might make our interactions much more limited and difficult. If Adobe doesn't change their TOS stance on images posted to their servers, I don't think there are *any* of us who are willing to simply give our photos, and their respective rights, away by posting here. That alone will kill this particular forum.
I love learning and seeing what is posted here. It has expanded my knowledge and awareness of many things, photography being only one of them. One example: Fred enlightening us to what is happening to the forests around him, both in words and via his photos. I don't think I would have known much about this issue without his diligence. By the way Fred, I salute you in your efforts. :)
In short, if Adobe wants to take "credit" for our photos, who is going to post? If no one posts ... the forum dies. :( -
28. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ann Shelbourne Mar 21, 2009 11:21 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)>wow! ... is this goodbye?
I certainly hope not!
This Forum has always been such a special place that i hope that it can survive the move to the decidedly different new forums.
I do think that we all need to be very careful to always post any images from a link on an external server such as pixentral (and always include both an embedded metadata Copyright statement and an obvious © Watermark) and we should NEVER post images directly into the Adobe Forums' pages even though that facility is now there.
We have no way of knowing if Adobe would ever abuse the powers that they have given themselves (whether intentionally or unintentionally) in Clause 8; but so far we have received no response from John Cornicello, or anyone else from Adobe, as to whether this matter is being investigated or the situation clarified. -
29. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Mar 21, 2009 11:32 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of any new management? -
30. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
pfigen Mar 21, 2009 11:47 AM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)The way I read it, anything that gets posted on the new forum, regardless of whether it's posted directly or through a link to an outside server, automatically has the non-exclusive copyright assigned to Adobe, and since there is no place to effectively cross that out, you either participate knowing that you're being taken advantage of or you move on to a less oppressive regime. -
31. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
(halsch) Mar 21, 2009 12:27 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)I do not post very often in this forum, but I lurk here almost every day - when I am home.
Like Linda, I have benefitted a great deal in the last four or five years from the postings in this forum; I am not a professional, just an active amateur, but like everyone else, I do like to take good pictures and process them with some degree of competence. I have also enjoyed on many occasions the pictures posted here.
Unfortunately, all you can count on in this life is CHANGE. We will just hope that we can adapt to the new forum with some degree of the pleasure the old forum gave us.
Thank you all for the help and pleasure you have given me!!!!
Hal -
32. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ann Shelbourne Mar 21, 2009 12:45 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)>automatically has the non-exclusive copyright assigned to Adobe,
I don't think that it actually transfers the Copyright because under the law that can ONLY be transferred on a case by case basis by a signed written agreement between the two parties.
But what they are attempting to purloin are the Rights to Unlimited Use in Perpetuity and without compensation to the Artist.
If Adobe fails to amend TOS Clause 8, hopefully some well-healed lawyer will bring a Class Action Lawsuit against them but that doesn't help us in the meantime. -
33. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
pfigen Mar 21, 2009 1:21 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)Ann,
It's very possible that the language may not be legal. It's also true that most of the images posted here have never been registered with the U.S. copyright office or the copyright office from wherever they have been posted. This language is very similar to the language that record companies and even National Geographic (one of the worst offenders) have tried to use with me.
Upon further reflection, I think that the very act of you agreeing to their terms and conditions is all that's needed. You have agreed to their terms. What is needed is a legal clarification from a good copyright attorney as to what it all really means. Until then, I would not assume anything but the worst. -
34. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
greenjumpyone Mar 21, 2009 2:36 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)and the way I am understanding it, that clause applies to *this* forum as well. Am I wrong?? -
35. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
pfigen Mar 21, 2009 3:28 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)The thought had crossed my mind too, and that is reinforced by the fact that we've had to re-sign up here, and most of us did without reading any fine print. -
36. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ozpeter Mar 21, 2009 3:49 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)I'm sure we discussed this "Adobe's rights" thing months back - and the photos continued to be posted here. [Edit - but admittedly I can't find a link] -
37. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
pfigen Mar 21, 2009 3:51 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)I don't recall any such discussion. Care to call it back up? -
38. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Ozpeter Mar 21, 2009 4:08 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)John Cornicello posted this on the ephemeral test site -
"Might as well post the entire section...
--------------------------------------
8. Use of Your Content.
a. Adobe does not claim ownership of Your Content. However, except as provided in Section 8(b), you grant Adobe a worldwide, royalty-free, nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, and fully sublicensable license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display Your Content (in whole or in part) and to incorporate Your Content into other Materials or works in any format or medium now known or later developed.
And now in more common terms: We realize that this section might look a bit scary and so we want to point out a few things. This section only applies to those portions of our sites, such as User Forums, where we intend for users to share content freely with Adobe and with each other. It does not apply to all of the content that you share, contribute or post to our sites. For example, it does not apply to content hosted by Photoshop.com or Acrobat.com. For services like those, we will provide customized license grants that are consistent with the spirit and intent of those services and that are appropriate for the kinds of content we expect you to share within them. (We say this more formally below.) So we encourage you to be selective when deciding which content to contribute under this license and we want you to be sure that you are comfortable granting the above rights when it comes to that specific content.
-----------------------------------
Which basically means that you give Adobe permission to display the image on the site. Without those terms we would not not be able to display (perform, distribute, reproduce, modify (resize), publish, etc.) your image on the site.
I will see if they have some clarification on that part in italics that refers to Forums.
Thanks!"
(That's the end of what John said)
I can appreciate that professional photographers are highly sensitive to this kind of issue but it does appear to be intended to (for instance) prevent someone who has posted an image here from then demanding payment from Adobe because the company have then distributed it worldwide on their site (the forum). That's why I've suggested adding words which gives them the right only to publish it in the context in which it was posted (ie the forum or its successors, eg the new Jive version). -
39. Re: So is the photography forum dead or grasping for its last breath?
Nick Decker Mar 21, 2009 4:55 PM (in response to Wade S Zimmerman)>Which basically means that you give Adobe permission to display the image on the site.
Which is, I'm sure, what Adobe intended. Are they trying to cover their *****? You betcha.
Other than that, if you don't feel comfortable with posting your images here, don't. I really don't think that the recent aura of this forum being dead is justified.



