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1. Re: Extreme cold photography
badchess Nov 15, 2007 10:14 AM (in response to badchess)http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=247
In case anyone else is interested... -
2. Re: Extreme cold photography
(Donald_Reese) Nov 15, 2007 3:00 PM (in response to badchess)I have heard some guys rubber banding the disposable hand warmers to the grip area to extend battery life.would not be a bad item to have for your hands and feet as well. -
3. Re: Extreme cold photography
ArrrBee Nov 15, 2007 4:36 PM (in response to badchess)With in reason cold is good for the camera, the imaging sensor stays cool
there is less noise. However, cold is a killer for batteries, so carry extra
ones and keep them in pockets close to your body to keep them warm. I also
try to hold my camera so that my hand is over the battery area as much as
possible. The only other thing is going from cold (cold camera) to a warm
room. I have been told, but have never tried it that placing the camera in a
ziplock bag before going in to the warm will keep it from sweating. Myself I
keep my camera in a dry ice chest in the car and just take the memory cards
and batteries in with me. If I know I am going to have to go from cold to
warm and not have time to do it right I will take two cameras. One I keep
cold one I keep warm.
Robert -
4. Re: Extreme cold photography
Allen Wicks Nov 15, 2007 9:26 PM (in response to badchess)Biggest issue is fogging with temperature change which can take hours to resolve. I leave the cameras in the truck in the winter when I am doing outdoor shoots and take the batteries indoors. Used to be Sandisk Extreme CF cards were the only ones rated for below freezing. I use Sandisk Extreme IV CFs and have never had a hiccup.
Robert is very correct about batteries losing capacity as they chill. And below zero F even warm batteries can chill quickly. -
5. Re: Extreme cold photography
Wade S Zimmerman Nov 16, 2007 8:41 PM (in response to badchess)Rollie had or still has a solution to the problem the had or have device that inserted in the Battery compartment that made the contact and that in turn was wired to an actual external battery compartment that you placed the battery and you put that in your pocket or jacket or coat.
Or if you had a big enough one you sat on it. I think there are third party devices like this for most popular cameras. -
6. Re: Extreme cold photography
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Nov 17, 2007 10:21 AM (in response to badchess)One of these days I'll rig one for myself.
I see that the D300 has gone back to CF cards. I wonder why they ever used the SD's in the first place. -
7. Re: Extreme cold photography
(r_harvey) Nov 17, 2007 5:29 PM (in response to badchess)Besides larger size and parallel architecture, are there any advantages for the manufacturer? To me, CF is asking for failure, because it isn't ZIF (zero insertion force), and it depends on pins. To me, the connectors are no more practical than the original PCMCIA standard, dating back to around 1990.
SD is, to me, a much more rational design for typical users, because you can't accidentally yank the card out. And if you should happen to pull hard enough, it uses edge connectors instead of pins. Perhaps the spring is a long-term issue? I suppose the limited bandwidth could theoretically be an issue for some applications, but USB and FireWire™ are serial, and they do pretty well.
My Nikon 995 P&S died from failure to recognize any CF cards. Oh, but it was a slow, painful death. But the Canon replacement feels like... springtime. -
8. Re: Extreme cold photography
ArrrBee Nov 17, 2007 5:54 PM (in response to (r_harvey))SD cards are nice. Except I wish they would have designed the specification
to handle larger sizes without new specifications being needed, this would
have taken care of the second problem and that is you can't use just any
speed of SD card with any SD supporting camera. This is flat out a dumb,
dumb idea and one that keeps SD from being more than it is.
Robert -
9. Re: Extreme cold photography
(r_harvey) Nov 17, 2007 6:02 PM (in response to badchess)Good point.
My Sony laptop reads MMC/SD cards just fine (and a few more, like Sony's MemoryStick), but it sits there with a dumb expression when trying to figure out exactly what an SDHC card is.
It's a future-proofing (or compatibility) thing. Lots of design issues are handled expediently, without realizing what might be possible -- and popular -- in a few years. The original PCMCIA is an example of that, written for 16-bits, when 32-bit computers were already on the market. -
10. Re: Extreme cold photography
Allen Wicks Nov 18, 2007 4:50 PM (in response to badchess)>CF is asking for failure, because it isn't ZIF (zero insertion force), and it depends on pins.
There are literally millions of CF cards in the field working very, very well for years now. Top quality CF cards physically seem absolutely bombproof; every problem I have seen has involved folks with flawed workflows or less than best quality CF/vendors, never physical card failure like pins.
Personally I want as many cameras as possible to be CF. That way I can share my investment of 8 GB and 4 GB CF cards. Also the smaller card types like SD feel flimsy to me and CF size is really as small as I care to be constantly handling (big hands). Nikon's new D3 has two CFs, IMO an excellent approach. It allows full redundancy or double capacity or RAW on one card and JPEG on the other. -
11. Re: Extreme cold photography
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Nov 18, 2007 11:15 PM (in response to badchess)CF or SD, I want standardization!
Edge connectors Have their own problems, like wear. Usually, edge connectors are reserved for situations where the number of withdrawals and insertions are limited, usually around 100 to 200. It's quite dependent on the type of gold used on the mating surfaces. If you use a reader, withdrawing the card, now you have the additional problem of that connector being well configured to handle the connections without adding excessively to the wear problem. Makes sense to use the usb from the camera here. -
12. Re: Extreme cold photography
Ramón G Castañeda Nov 19, 2007 12:35 AM (in response to badchess)What? Only one card per shoot out in the field?
Not plausible. -
13. Re: Extreme cold photography
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Nov 19, 2007 10:30 AM (in response to badchess)Not one card, one standard card system. I don't want to cart around different storage in one camera bag. I most likely will have both the D80 and the D300. Deciding which is which under pressure is something I don't need or want. -
14. Re: Extreme cold photography
(r_harvey) Nov 19, 2007 11:47 AM (in response to badchess)> Edge connectors Have their own problems, like wear.
As do pins. Pins worry about stress relief, too. You can have a faulty pin connector on the camera -- which is possible, because they're not ZIF -- and no cards will be usable. Like on my little Nikon.
SD Has minimal wear because it's ZIF. The surface wear issue is probably unnecessary... expect failure elsewhere, first. It's all kind of a compromise... CF takes the bad parts of something like socket 360, while SD uses the good parts.
When I first tried SD after using pin-based connectors since 1990, it was like seeing how it should've been done in the first place. The SD hardware design guys did a very good job on mechanical user interface, but not as great on forward-looking protocols.
Yeah, one standard... everybody decides they'll do that, once and for all, and that'll settle it for everyone else. -
15. Re: Extreme cold photography
Allen Wicks Nov 19, 2007 1:51 PM (in response to badchess)>Makes sense to use the usb from the camera here.
Umm, that just moves the theoretical wear (that no one has suggested has shown to be real-world problematic anyway, even after many millions of user days) to the camera's USB connection. Worse, USB is unacceptably slow as an images transfer methodology.
IMO top end CF cards and fast FW card readers (or even better PC card adapters) are by far the best way to go.
>Not one card, one standard card system.
Agreed, but I want it to be the well proven higher capacity CF card format used in every top end DSLR today. CF cards are small but manageable; going from small to tiny just IMO gets harder to handle.
> What? Only one card per shoot out in the field? Not plausible.
I use 8 GB CF cards (16 GB sizes are also available) and often have an entire D2x shoot on one card. With some shoots I upload to the Macbook Pro as I go for backup, and then I may or may not be swapping two CFs, depending on the shoot.
Larger shoots do require both multiple cards and Macbook Pro backup. -
16. Re: Extreme cold photography
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Nov 19, 2007 2:08 PM (in response to badchess)Not so, r_ As a test engineer, I can attest to the so called ZIF and contact wear.
All electrical contacts, all reliable contacts that is, have what is called wiping action, to assure a good connection. With gold, it becomes a problem. The inertness of gold vs it's softenss.
I have specified innumerable edge connectors using gold, and the biggest problem is that many edge connector systems are intended to be few insertions/withdrawals and under test conditions,some boards have to be changed frequently to get around the wear.
The hardness of the gold has a number, and typically, one of the mating surfaces is harder than the other, sacrificing one or the other in the overall process.
I am looking at the connector surface for the SD (one sided, a no-no for reliability) the conductive surface is about 0.1". There are tiny tracks down the center of the surface, running only half way up the length, which is about 0.2".
It appears to me that the card is being sacrificed, which, of course would be logical since replacing a card is cheaper than repairing/replacing the connector.
That's my judgement call if I were the designer of the system.
All contacts wear for sure, but some are far more robust than others. Gold isn't used in wall sockets for more than cost considerations! -
17. Re: Extreme cold photography
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Nov 19, 2007 2:17 PM (in response to badchess)Allen, USB is subject to multiple insertion considerations.They are designed to withstand that.
All connectors are not equal, and the sheer variety of connector configurations attest to this.
Connector problems have been around as long as there was a necessity to make a removable connection. The #1 problem in B-17's at least electrical problems, was connectors.
Obviously, speed of data transfer has to be a factor in making choices. There is likely a ground plane under the SD connectors as they appear to be designed to provide impedance control at high frequencies.
That's a swag at this point! :D -
18. Re: Extreme cold photography
(r_harvey) Nov 19, 2007 2:19 PM (in response to badchess)> As a test engineer, I can attest to the so called ZIF and contact wear.
As a computer user since the '70s, I realize what's an important issue, and what isn't. The little bit of scraping is a whole lot less likely to leave you without a working part, than if you yanked the pins or socket apart.
> I am looking at the connector surface for the SD (one sided, a no-no for reliability)
It's designed that way intentionally. There are numerous arguments for only putting connectors on one side. I'm sure the specification considers your concerns and many more. If I have any complaint with the mechanical design, I'd say that the cards are too small.
> It appears to me that the card is being sacrificed, which, of course would be logical since replacing a card is cheaper than repairing/replacing the connector.
I's designed for the real world. Practical life expectancies. Much rather throw away a card than a camera. Know anybody who needs a Nikon with a broken CF socket? Would cost more to repair than the camera is worth. -
19. Re: Extreme cold photography
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Nov 19, 2007 4:32 PM (in response to badchess)Sigh! -
20. Re: Extreme cold photography
greenjumpyone Nov 19, 2007 5:04 PM (in response to badchess)As a test engineer, I can attest to the so called ZIF and contact wear.
As a computer user since the '70s, I realize what's an important issue, and what isn't.
I don't normally get into discussions like this, but seriously r_, because of your being a user doesn't negate actual data as to the wear and tear of the contact points! It simply points to your experience, which may or may not compare to another's experience. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
Now my experience with the CF cards and pins hasn't been without pain for me. I *did* bend a pin beyond simple fixing. Had to send the camera in for repair. Sure, they can and do bend, but I'm not going to make a blanket statement that all pins break, nor am I going to say that edge connectors are the devil!
just my humble $0.02.
hopper -
21. Re: Extreme cold photography
(r_harvey) Nov 19, 2007 5:56 PM (in response to badchess)I was trying to avoid dazzling the reader with a few selected and out of context numbers. Contact wear is at best a red herring.
It's the same kind of issue that kept 35mm cassettes from being replaced for more than 70 years. I do understand that many have piles of expensive CF cards. But if we were starting all over right now, I can't imagine anyone wanting a physical connection with all those pins being yanked and pushed all the time. Now, if you could combine the best parts of SD and CF... -
22. Re: Extreme cold photography
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Nov 19, 2007 6:55 PM (in response to badchess)i Contact wear is at best a red herring.
HORSEPUCKY!
i I can shout too!
If you saw the efforts simple jugging for a simple test of Ethernet devices needed to avoid or minimize the problem, you might just become a bit embarrassed.
NAH! r_ is right. r_ knows more about everything than you do.
Just ask him.
I'm outta here. Nothing to see or learn. -
23. Re: Extreme cold photography
troyhark Nov 28, 2007 3:45 PM (in response to badchess)>Top quality CF cards physically seem absolutely bombproof.
I machine washed an 8G Sandisk the other day. Seems fine. :-)
>What? Only one card per shoot out in the field? Not plausible.
Maybe not if you are a machine gun photographer, but some people resort to taking a few good shots instead. ;-) Besides an 8G card will do nearly 400 shots with a 5D shooting RAW + best quality JPEG. Or nearly 500 with just RAW.
I spent a couple of weeks in China just before getting a DSLR and used 40 rolls of film and got an awful lot of good photographs. That's only 3 and a bit cards worth, in 16 days. So very plausible to only have one card. Fewer images to tediously sift through at end of the day too.
However when out shooting professionally, then you may well shoot a lot more images - just in case. Having said that, with digital, you may not need to as you can see if you got the shot. -
24. Re: Extreme cold photography
(r_harvey) Nov 28, 2007 3:50 PM (in response to badchess)An old slashdot article, A Memory Card Torture Test, links to another article. This, from the summary page of that article, talks about read/write speed:
] Another interesting point is the rates achieved by the SD cards. On the whole, they look faster than CompactFlash and if you own the Canon 1D/1Ds mark II, then using SD cards would appear to be the faster option.
- Memory Card Roundup Page 18
Yes, it's one of those multi-page things, if you really want to go through it all. The pull quote, above, seems to be the most pertinent part.
There are still a lot of issues. Again, back in the early card days, a big complaint from manufacturers was small physical size, which limited flexibility, and required using higher-density (and more expensive) storage components. On the other hand, chip makers really like pushing the industry to high-density parts.
I've been Googling around, but so far haven't found anything but anecdotal evidence about one or the other being more reliable. I would guess that you could find more stories of CF failures, but only because they've been around longer. -
25. Re: Extreme cold photography
Allen Wicks Nov 30, 2007 3:54 PM (in response to badchess)Umm, sorry but that review has been invalid for at least a year.
They ran SD cards at ~ 9 MB/sec as their fastest test results, slightly faster in one category than the CF they tested. I have been using ~ 40 MB/sec Sandisk Extreme IV cards since not long after that article was published. Apparently Lexar now has a CF card that is even a small bit faster than the Sandisk Extreme IV.
In any event, I can report that the faster cards, when combined with a FW 800 card reader or (IMO better, but I have only subjective results) a fast Express card 34 adapter are a huge improvement over earlier solutions. Note that both a fast reader and fast cards are required to achieve 40 MB/s transfers. -
26. Re: Extreme cold photography
badchess Dec 3, 2007 7:20 AM (in response to badchess)So, to get back to extreme cold...
I'll baggy my camera when taking it back indoors
and keep my extra battery in my pocket with a hand warmer.
I presume it makes sense to bag lenses when transitioning from very cold to hotel room temp as well? -
27. Re: Extreme cold photography
(Donald_Reese) Dec 3, 2007 9:24 AM (in response to badchess)To be totally safe, i would use a vacuum food sealer to totally draw any air out of the bag before coming indoors. i am not sure there are battery operated ones, but perhaps a long extension cord might work. -
28. Re: Extreme cold photography
Allen Wicks Dec 4, 2007 10:54 AM (in response to badchess)> To be totally safe, i would use a vacuum food sealer to totally draw any air out of the bag before coming indoors. i am not sure there are battery operated ones, but perhaps a long extension cord might work.
A huge amount of effort for very small benefit. The reason we have moisture issues is because warm air holds more moisture than cold air. The amount of moisture in an airtight bag sealed in a cold environment does not increase when moving into a warmer environment.
The vacuum sealer idea would have merit if a camera system was moving to an even colder environment on a successive day. E.g. at 0 degrees C on Monday, -10 degrees C on Tuesday. However before applying a vacuum to a camera system I would want dispensation from the camera manufacturer.
I deal with high altitude cold shooting temps all winter long (Truckee, CA) and find that keeping the camera system generally cold almost all the time is most beneficial. Unless it gets really cold Nikon's D2x battery has so much capacity I even leave it in the system in the cold. The spare battery lives indoors where it is warm, just in case. With the D100's far less battery capacity I had to keep all the batteries warm all the time.
My "cold storage" is inside my Yukon. During the day in addition to the Yukon's alarm system security two labradors live in the truck. At night it is in a locked garage that maintains a degree or two above freezing temps all winter. -
29. Re: Extreme cold photography
(Donald_Reese) Dec 4, 2007 4:33 PM (in response to badchess)Allen, i was trying to be funny, as phil really likes humor. i thought my comment about the long extension cord would make it obvious i was not serious.i have never done anything special except keep my camera bag closed when going indoors. -
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31. Re: Extreme cold photography
(-macman) Dec 4, 2007 10:18 PM (in response to badchess)Ziploc bags work for me... -
32. Re: Extreme cold photography
badchess Dec 6, 2007 4:52 AM (in response to badchess)I thought it was funny.
I do have a car alarm, but no dogs, and I'm not bringing eihter of my guard cats, so I'll not chance my equipment unguarded in my wheels.
I've heard too many times "I just left it in the car for a few minutes..." -
33. Re: Extreme cold photography
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Dec 7, 2007 9:37 PM (in response to badchess)You do take the dogs out at night, right, Allen?:D
I had a beloved German Shepherd which I really enjoyed taking out with me when photographing. She would run ahead and if she saw anyone coming down the trail, she would sit down and watch them while also signaling me that traffic was coming. One time I was out on a wide, long beach with her and became engrossed in looking at sand forms left behind by the retreating surf. I put down the camera bag, and after a few minutes, realized Valentine was no longer around. So I looked for her and there she was, wrapped around the bag.
Brought a tear to my eye.
I miss her. -
34. Re: Extreme cold photography
Hudechrome-sd9sPI Dec 7, 2007 9:42 PM (in response to badchess)...and I never actually taught her to do that! Or watch for oncoming traffic on the trail. -
35. Re: Extreme cold photography
Dirk Williams Dec 8, 2007 7:24 AM (in response to badchess)I grew up in New York, as a kid with two German Shepherds in the house. Great dogs! Very committed to their master. -
36. Re: Extreme cold photography
badchess Jan 29, 2008 6:49 AM (in response to badchess)Battery performance of Canon 1D iii in coldish weather.
In case anyone is interested the 1D (iii) battery holds up extremely well in the cold. Even after the camera was out in (low) teen weather for 6 or 7 hours (and taken several hundred pictures) the battery was still better then 60% (can't remember the exact number).
Never had to dip into the spare battery I was keeping in my pants pocket.


