Premiere 4K Proxy to HD Monitor via Intensity Pro

[Martinnel]

I've already posted this to the Blackmagic Post Production forum, but thought I'd try here as well.

I'm working with RED 4K footage. I have imported it and would like to create HD proxies that will play on my HD monitor via my Intensity Pro 4K. this seems like it should be simple, but so far, I can successfully make proxies that play on my computer monitors, but not on the one linked via Intensity. I do not have trouble playing other media on my Intensity monitor.

Here's what I've done:

1. Imported the 4K .R3D clips into Premiere. These appear fine, but are too much for my system to play back happily.

2. Created proxies. I chose from the pulldown menu, "1280x720 Apple ProRes 422 Proxy." This created Attached proxies that play back fine on my computer monitors. But they do not appear on my Intensity connected monitor.

3. I also tried creating proxies using 1280x720 GoPro Cineform. Also, no luck.

I am betting this is a fairly simple issue, but I'm having no luck so far. Anyone have any pointers for me?

Martin

Early 2009 Nehalem MacPro4,1, 2 X 2.6 GHz Quad-Core

OS High Sierra 10.13.6

Samsung 850 EVO 1 TB system drive

32 GB RAM

ATI Radeon HD 4870 GRFX Card

Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K, Driver: 10.11.4

Avid Media Composer v. 2018.11.0

Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019 v. 13.1.2

Adobe Media Encoder CC v. 13.0.2.39

Mocha Pro Plug-in v. 6.0.2 build 217.x

Boris Continuum 2019 v. 12.0.4

[rodneyb56060189]

Unfortunately, the situation is not as simple as it should be. Just to get things moving along... I'll ask some simple questions though....

what is the monitor you are using from your HDMI output of intensity pro card.. which I assume you plugged into some pci e x 8 version 3 slot ??

need to know if it's just another monitor or a VIDEO monitor...

[rodneyb56060189]

after that... when you installed the black magic software and drivers ( the latest ones instead of the little thing that came with card ) .. did you use 'blackmagic' settings when you started new project ???   There would be a bunch of Blackmagic OPTIONS to create a new project ... when you start a new project …

??

[Martinnel]

rodneyb56060189  wrote

after that... when you installed the black magic software and drivers ( the latest ones instead of the little thing that came with card ) .. did you use 'blackmagic' settings when you started new project ???   There would be a bunch of Blackmagic OPTIONS to create a new project ... when you start a new project …

Hmm, more difficult to answer. I've— Wait! That helped. But I'll back up.

I've had this card for nearly three years. I've updated the driver periodically; currently I'm running 10.11.4. Typically, I haven't needed to play with settings when I start a new project. But, that question made a lot of sense so (and I'm going to put a lot of detail in here so someone else with the same problem or—as it has happened before—I after I've forgotten the answer, can work their way through) I went to Premiere/Preferences/Playback, confirmed that Blackmagic playback was checked under Video Device and clicked on Setup.

And, lo and behold, under For output of unsupported frame sizes, I had No Output selected. Switching it to Scale up (since my proxies, at 1280x720 are smaller than my TV's native 1920x1080) put the image on my TV.

So far, so good. But, having resolved that first issue, I am still having related troubles. These should possibly be part a new thread, but, since I have your attention, I'll see how far your good nature goes.

Playback is still extremely stilted. Though my Mac is very old, I typically can play full HD without trouble even on long, complex edits. Not so with these proxies. And when I tried rendering the sequence (which, so far, is a single clip), it became extremely blurred on both my TV monitor and my computer monitors. I've attached rendered and unrendered, but oddly, when I used Premiere's Export Frame to create the rendered image, it wasn't blurry at all. The image I am providing is a frame grab instead.

Any more clues Rodney or anyone else?

Martin

Early 2009 Nehalem MacPro4,1, 2 X 2.6 GHz Quad-Core

OS High Sierra 10.13.6

Samsung 850 EVO 1 TB system drive

32 GB RAM

ATI Radeon HD 4870 GRFX Card

Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K, Driver: 10.11.4

Avid Media Composer v. 2018.11.0

Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019 v. 13.1.2

Adobe Media Encoder CC v. 13.0.2.39

Mocha Pro Plug-in v. 6.0.2 build 217.x

Boris Continuum 2019 v. 12.0.4

[Martinnel]

Thanks Rodney. It is a video monitor, an HD, not 4K monitor. Specifically, it's a Panasonic TC-L32E3 TV. The specs can be found here. And, yes, the Intensity Pro 4K is plugged into a PCI slot and works as desired in most situations.

I am happy to answer as many more questions as I can.

Martin

[rodneyb56060189]

do you see Blackmagic options to start new project in PPro ??

[rodneyb56060189]

This will take a while for you to explore all available options to get around the problem.. and it will get complicated. Sorry.

I have also been through the same stuff over the years, and it took me ( cause I'm an idiot ) a really long time to finally get it right for my own editing computer ( nicknamed THE PIG in honor of the Empress of Blanding's Castle … a prize winning pig ).

You have a TV hooked up.. not a computer monitor or a video monitor.

However, there may be a way to somehow work through that to get the signal there.  It won't be color correct or nothing, but should be somewhere around rec 709 or sRGB or something similar... maybe with adjustments you can match it to your primary monitor color and move along with some semblance of comfort that what you 'see' is what you get when you export.

This would probably entail some complicated stuff...

hehe, sorry , but that's life.

[rodneyb56060189]

one of the first things you will notice is that your Blackmagic card is limited to full HD... since you are now trying to use 4k, that is a bit out of range for the Blackmagic card to handle.... so that's one thing...

???? might have a bearing on this case ??

If you transcode the 4k to full HD BEFORE importing to PPro, you may be able to avoid a lot of uncertainty regarding 'proxies' and proxy settings and what the PPro program is trying to ACCESS for playback etc..

lots of variables and crazy stuff !

[Martinnel]

All interesting.

rodneyb56060189  wrote

one of the first things you will notice is that your Blackmagic card is limited to full HD... since you are now trying to use 4k, that is a bit out of range for the Blackmagic card to handle.... so that's one thing...

But the proxies depict 1280x720 so that's well within HD range (and, though it's not relevant here, I've got the Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K, so it should be able to handle 4K — my TV, however is only HD).

rodneyb56060189  wrote

If you transcode the 4k to full HD BEFORE importing to PPro, you may be able to avoid a lot of uncertainty regarding 'proxies' and proxy settings and what the PPro program is trying to ACCESS for playback etc..

Then I would need to come up with a workflow that would allow me to link to the 4K files at the end of the edit. With proxies that's relatively easy, but I would think it would be much harder, if not entirely manual, if I transcoded first.

Martin

[rodneyb56060189]

good going... you made nice headway as shown in your screenshots.

I don't know why my google search showed your card as limited to 1080p, but I guess it didn't see the 4k iteration.

Anyway, so far so good.. now maybe some minor settings will get you exactly squared away ! 

[jamesc88468894]

I may have an answer for you  (I have a pre 4k Intensity card).

Intensity pro 4k can feed the below signals to your tv.

SD Video Standards

525i59.94 NTSC, 625i50 PAL

HD Video Standards

720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60 1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 1080p50, 1080p59.94, 1080p60 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60

Ultra HD Video Standards

2160p23.98, 2160p24, 2160p25, 2160p29.97, 2160p30

If you are using an BM Ultra HD Video project (a 4k project/sequence) and sending that signal out through a BM card to a HD 1080p only tv, you won't see anything.

Try

HD Video Standards

720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60 1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 1080p50, 1080p59.94, 1080p60 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60

Which HD standard will depend on FPS of your 4k material.

See if any of these work.  You may have to scale your 4k material to fit the frame size your tv is capable of viewing.

I had a tv/monitor once that would not play 1080p23.98 signal (eventually I got rid of it).  It would play 1080i59.94 or 720p23.98.  Your tv may have the same issue with a 4k BM sequence. If that is what you are using.

I had project with red r3d 4k content and I needed 1080p23.98 output.  My work around till I got a new monitor was to edit in a BM 720p (720p23.98) sequence.  This allowed me to view the material through the BM card to my monitor. When I was done I copied and pasted to a 1080p23.98 sequence. Scaled footage as needed (not viewing through the BM card). Then off to adobe media encoder.

Worked like a charm for me. Though, I'm not doing broadcast/feature work. 

Of course if you are doing broadcast/feature work, get a better monitor.

😉

Good luck!

[Martinnel]

Thanks all for these helpful suggestions. I have been away from my computer all day and will try these ideas tomorrow.

Martin

[Martinnel]

First, a Correction: I mistakenly reported the size of my source footage at the beginning of this thread. I am working with RED 5K footage, not 4K.

I've been off this project for a while, but I now have a mostly successful workflow and feel I should share in case someone else—or I, after I've forgotten—needs the answer to this very specific issue. I also feel I owe a follow-up to everyone that generously contributed suggestions that got me there — most of your replies deserve at least a partial "Correct Answer."

Despite, the original subject line, this really became an issue for me of how to get the image to my outboard TV and just how to get fluid playback on any of my monitors, given my under-powered gear. Here's what's working. I'll be as concise as I can manage (which is rarely all that). I'll skip how to do some of the basic tasks like importing and creating proxies. And, again, my source material is RED 5K and my system specs can be found after my signature below.

1. I imported my clips.
2. I created proxies. I chose 1280 x 720 Apple ProRes 422 from the pulldown menu.
3. I created a sequence setting that works in my system: 1920 x 1080p, 23.976 fps and everything else default. Here's a frame grab:
4. I went to Preferences/Playback/Video Device/Black Magic Playback Setup. I made sure Intensity Pro 4K was chosen as Device and, because my proxies are 1280 x 720 and I'm working with a 1920 x 1080 sequence, under For output of unsupported frame sizes, I chose Scale up.
5. ​Making sure the ​Toggle Proxies ​buttonis on, I start cutting.
6. Because the source footage is larger than the sequence settings everything is extremely cropped. To fix this, I choose Scale to Frame Size. I would typically prefer Set to Frame Size for its flexibility, but, for some reason, for fluid playback, I have to render before playing back with Set and Scale plays fine without rendering.

And that gives me a more or less usable workflow. I still don't get a fluid playback on the Source side regardless of whether the Toggle Proxies button is on and Source also doesn't play on my outboard TV. But, geez, what do I want, eggs in my beer?

Of course, I now don't have an exportable 5K sequence. I addressed this in another thread, but a here's a quick executive summary of what I've worked out for that:

1. Upon picture lock, I copied the contents of my sequence.
2. Created a new sequence with settings that match my full rez footage:
3. …and pasted my picture lock into it. I think this is now a perfectly suitable 5K sequence ready for export.

I appreciate that no one may make it through this late, wordy and extremely system-specific response, but should that happen and you find flaws in my process or conclusions (especially in regard to my export expectations), I would be thrilled to hear back.

Thank you all for your help and your patience.

Martin

Early 2009 Nehalem MacPro4,1, 2 X 2.6 GHz Quad-Core

OS High Sierra 10.13.6

Samsung 850 EVO 1 TB system drive

32 GB RAM

ATI Radeon HD 4870 GRFX Card

Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K, Driver: 10.11.4

Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019 v. 13.1.2

Adobe Media Encoder CC v. 13.0.2.39

Mocha Pro Plug-in v. 6.0.2 build 217.x

Boris Continuum 2019 v. 12.0.4

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Martin,

Glad you found something that works for you.

I am working with RED 5K footage, not 4K.

1. I imported my clips.

Great.

I created proxies. I chose 1280 x 720 Apple ProRes 422 from the pulldown menu.

If you want to create proxies that match the aspect ratio of your camera originals, you can do that, and I find it to be smoother experience, but this will work.

If you were curious, here's how to do that:

1. my proxies are 1280 x 720 and I'm working with a 1920 x 1080 sequence, under For output of unsupported frame sizes, I chose Scale up.

You should be working with a 5K sequence, not a HD sequence that is a different size than your proxies. This is probably the main problem with the workflow that you used. This is a little unclear in the manual, so I can see why you may have been confused.

And that gives me a more or less usable workflow. I still don't get a fluid playback on the Source side regardless of whether the Toggle Proxies button is on and Source also doesn't play on my outboard TV. But, geez, what do I want, eggs in my beer?\

My guess that the scaling aspect is your likely bottleneck, as that requires a certain amount of GPU power. A more powerful and updated computer is sorely needed and the cause of a number of your issues, I'm afraid.

Of course, I now don't have an exportable 5K sequence.

Now you know the proper workflow: edit in a 5K sequence.

EDIT: I now see from reading the other thread that you could not even playback the scaled up proxies. You could not use the workflow indicated in the manual because of your underpowered system.

Looks like you found a workaround, though, so that's good. Getting a 5K video edited on a ten year old computer? Now that's a feat!

Regards,
Kevin

[Martinnel]

Thanks Kevin. That video should prove helpful. Do you think, given my dated computer, that making proxies w/the proper aspect ratio will help my Source side playback?

And (bonus question) is there a relatively painless way to lose my existing proxies, create new ones with a matching aspect ratio and then have them work in my existing sequence without having to start over again?

Martin

[jamesc88468894]

I think everyone isn't seeing the whole picture. Several are coming to the conversation late and there are now two threads which maybe confusing people.

The pipeline is flawed.

Ideal situation

5k red material-> 5k Project-> edited/viewed on 5k monitor ->output 5k material.

He has a Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K card feeding a 1080p only TV/Monitor (he doesn't have a 4k TV/Monitor, a pipeline flaw)

He want's to see the video signal on his 1080p TV/Monitor while he edits. He doesn't necessarily want to use the program monitor in the GUI (might be real small on his old/under powered  computer).  He wants to feed the signal to his nice and big 1080p monitor so he can edit.

He has two limiting factors in his pipeline.

Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K card (the BMI 4k card can't feed a 5k signal out).

1080p monitor (can't view 4k video feed or a 5k video feed).

But he still wants to see the video on his 1080p monitor.

The ideal situation with a BlackMagic Intensity Pro 4k card.

5k red Material->4k Blackmagic Project-> edited/viewed on 4k monitor-> output 4k material (he wants 5k output but I don't think there are any 5K monitors that could view the signal, I could be wrong).

He doesn't have a 4k TV/Monitor that his 4k Blackmagic card can feed to.

So is there a work around. He wants to use his 1080p TV/monitor.

I provided a work around.  It seems to have worked, albeit with some modification (proxies).

So the current working pipeline is:

5k red material-> Blackmagic 1080p timeline-> edited/viewed on 1080p monitor (with 720p proxies).

Is this ideal, no.  Does it work yes. Glad I was able to help Martinnel.

So Martinnel has edit his video/film on his under powered editing rig.

We have come to the output phase. I'm sure this will require workarounds again.

Martinnel states that he wants 5k output. So I'm going to ask Why?  It won't play on your 1080p tv.

So Martinnel I think we need to know where your video/film is going.

Movie Theater

Broadcast tv

Blueray

DVD

youtube

vimeo

Something else?

Once we all know that, we could probably give suggestions/workarounds.

Finally I'm going to make a suggestion.  Save up some money and buy a 4k TV/monitor.  It will solve your pipeline problems (ie less workarounds).

Link to other thread regarding output.

Reverting to full size clips after proxy edit

Good luck!

[Martinnel]

jamesc88468894  wrote

I think everyone isn't seeing the whole picture. Several are coming to the conversation late and there are now two threads which maybe confusing people.

Thanks James. Undoubtedly, I confused people with this long an multi-topic thread.

jamesc88468894  wrote

So Martinnel I think we need to know where your video/film is going.

Movie Theater

Broadcast tv

Blueray

DVD

youtube

vimeo

Something else?

Once we all know that, we could probably give suggestions/workarounds.

My client is future-proofing. This particular piece may never end up anywhere other than on his demo reel (on his website). But he and I are are trying to determine if there is a workflow that allows me to cut his projects on my underpowered rig and still deliver in the size he desires.

In regard to my next investment, plenty of my clients are still working in HD and my system handles that just fine. I'm stalling as long as I can on buying my next computer to see what happens once the new MacPro delivers and the dust settles on that. We'll see if I can hold out.

Martin

[jamesc88468894]

Future proofing, that’s a tall request.

I’m going to make some assumptions.

I’m going to assume 5120x2700 red r3d footage shot at 23.976 frames per second.

I’m also going to assume you edited in a black magic 1920x1080 23.976 frames per second sequence. This will allow you to use your black magic card to feed a 1080p signal to your 1080p TV/Monitor.

I assume this because you still haven’t told us the FPS of your footage.

Now I have an older PC system with older software.  So I’m going to guess since you have newer software and are on a mac.

Make a new sequence

File->New->Sequence

Go all the way down to

Red R3D->5k->5k 2.4x1 23.976

You now have a red 5k sequence.

Go back to your 1080p sequence.

Command A, that will select everything in your sequence.

Command C, should copy everything in your sequence.

Go to you red 5k sequence. Make sure the CTI is at 00:00. Command V should paste everything there.

I hope/believe you don’t have to scale.

Now understand you will not be able to view this through your Blackmagic card to your 1080p monitor.

It is a limitation of your system.

What I don’t know about is how well your effects/transitions/titles/color correction will transfer.  I leave that to R Neil Haugen, Jim_Simon, Ann Bens to answer.  They have the newer software and are much more knowledgeable than I.

However, I would imagine some tweaking will need to be done. Like titles and masks may have to be re-positioned/scaled.  This is because it is a different frame size now.

Just realize you can not view it through your Blackmagic card to your 1080p TV/Montior for tweaking.

As for future proofing your export.

Image sequence at 5120x2700 with separate audio. Hope you have a large hard drive.

Some will think this is overkill but it is uncompressed.  You can always bring it back into premier and export it to 480p, 720p, 1080p, 4k in whatever codec you like now and in whatever codec is created in the future. That is about as future proof as you can get.

After that I would export a 1080p h264 for you client to review.

Hope this helps.  Good luck.