1 2 3 Previous Next 106 Replies Latest reply on Jun 8, 2007 7:46 AM by Hudechrome-sd9sPI Go to original post
      • 80. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
        Level 1

        So, you really should listen to what Thomas said...if you are indeed using Camera Raw hosted in Photoshop (as opposed to being hosted in Bridge) and you are actually then opening all of those images into Photoshop at one time, you have a severely screwed up workflow...

        Not only was Camera Raw not intended to actually OPEN hundreds of images into Photoshop at once (which is why that is prevented in CS3 cause some people WERE doing that) it also means your workflow sucks...

        Sorry to be blunt, but this doesn't seem to have sunk in yet.

        CR 4.1 hosted in Bridge will allow you to open as many images as you want into the Camera Raw 4.1 plug-in. From there you can indeed do settings to tweak your raw files but it is foolish to actually open many files into Photoshop at once. Photoshop isn't designed to be a multi-image processor. Each image you open will use up ram and if you open enough, Photoshop will slow down to a crawl (or crash).

        There are town things you could do in Bridge using Camera Raw. Either browse the images in Bridge and pop open groups of images to adjust the settings and when finished with a folder use the Image Processor to process the images to tiffs or psds...or

        While opening Camera Raw hosted by Bridge (command/ or control 'R' instead of "open") you could adjust individual images or groups of images and hit the save button. This will use Photoshop in the background to process and save the images in the background while you continue working with other images in Camera Raw in the foreground...the processing will be done by Photoshop (it has to be open) and all the images will automatically be opened, processed and save to the location you choose in the file format you choose.

        This allows you to continue editing in Bridge and Camera Raw in the foreground while Photoshop is churning away in the background.

        I've also noted on the thread on DPReview, you seem to have been having some pretty serious machine problems and you also seem to be in the middle of a switch from Win to Mac? You really need to get all that stuff worked out because otherwise, you're just flailing about. You don't know what all is wrong-but you keep saying that CS2 is still working. Well, until you have a stable workstation with updated CS3 stuff in proper working order, you are just compounding your problems by trying to make massive changes in both workflow, hardware, systems and Photoshop versions.

        It would be useful to kinda slow down, make sure your hardware and OS are in good working order and phase in your adoption of CS3-and please try to get over the habit of trying to open many, many images all at once in Photoshop. It's a flawed workflow...
        • 81. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
          Dirk Williams Level 1


          "Also, assigning 90% of memory to Photoshop is a really bad idea when using Camera Raw. Try a much smaller number, 60% or so."

          Thomas, what if you have a Mac Pro with 9 gigs of ram installed. Is it still a bad idea and why?

          • 82. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
            Level 1

            I don't know if this will help you, and obviously I'm not Thomas, but this article may answer some questions. PS can only use so much RAM.

            • 83. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
              Level 1
              "if you have a Mac Pro with 9 gigs of ram installed. Is it still a bad idea and why?"

              Depends...are you using the VM Buffering plug-ins?

              http://photoshopnews.com/2007/05/29/photoshop-cs3-vm-buffering-optional-extensions-mac-onl y/
              • 84. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                Dirk Williams Level 1
                I don't have either one of those VM Buffering plug-ins installed. My PS documents really don't go over 300 or 400 MB in size. I downloaded the plugins but not sure what would be the best way to goany suggestions?
                • 85. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                  Level 1
                  At this point, no cause I only have 6 gigs and the differences prolly won't be real useful I'm putting in a dual quad shortly with 16 gigs so then I'll test and tell...
                  • 86. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                    Dirk Williams Level 1
                    Thanks, Jeff :-)
                    • 87. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                      Well Jeff I do have to thank you for your time and advice (which I will try) but if it would have been clothed it in a more honorable fashion (without the use of harsh expletives it would have been allot more pleasant). Waay to harsh.....
                      You know what there are many ways to mop a floor, bake a cake, paint a house etc. and not everyone does those things in the same way but they still get there. I have "gotten there" for 2 years and comfortably so with no glitches ever at all. Yes, with all credit due to your program. I did so up 2 two days ago when everything fell apart. If you would be in NY I would take the time to show you how I go about what I do and see if your opinion of my work flow still stands in light of the WORK LOAD I have which is very unusual. How many Wedding photographers do you know that shoot digitally 1-2 weddings 5 days a week almost all year?!
                      For that I need speed. an intuitive UI (unlike Capture One) and easy controls. PS2 did that perfectly.
                      Having said all that I will try it your way, with an open mind and being more then willing to learn-as happily I am not that old a dog, (but I have some lingering doubts........)
                      • 88. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                        Level 1
                        "(without the use of harsh expletives it would have been allot more pleasant)"

                        Not sure what YOU call an "expletive" but a re-reading will find no expletives included...just blunt language.

                        Bottom line, with Photoshop CS3 and Camera Raw, Thomas told you that you simply WON'T be able to do in CS3 what you did in CS2. So, that's off the table unless you are willing to drop the numbers of images you open down. That's nonnegotiable because that was changed in CS3 (apparently because SOME people did actually end up opening way too many images into Photoshop at once and causing instability).

                        And you haven't exactly explained to my satisfaction WHY you feel the need to have that many images open in Photoshop at once...or even if you ARE actually opening them in Photoshop or just setting the raw settings and then hitting Open or Done...cause actually opening hundreds of image into Photoshop simply doesn't make sense.

                        I think what you are doing is opening the images into Camera Raw while Camera Raw is being hosted by Photoshop instead of being hosted by Bridge. There is a difference, by default, Camera Raw hosted by Photoshop will have the Open button hilighted and when hosted in Bridge, it's the Done button. The impact is pretty pretty high in terms of resources as well-Bridge will take less ram to open Camera Raw than Photoshop will-it's a function of the way Bridge and Photoshop deal with plug-ins.

                        You also don't say what you are doing with the images...processing them only in Camera Raw or also doing a lot of work on them in Photoshop beyond what Camera Raw can do. If you are doing a lot of Photoshop work, that would be another reason why NOT to open so many images at once rather than doing a selection edit and working only on the images that are worth it.

                        If all you are doing is global tone/color correction, crop and then burning to CD or DVD, then your current workflow is indeed broken since there's no need to actually open the images into Photoshop for that-you CAN process them out of Camera Raw in the background while Camera Raw is hosting the plug-in.

                        In that case, you would be able to open more than the current limit Thomas stated in CS3-work in Camera Raw hosted in Bridge with CR's filmstrip mode and select Save...set up the save type and location and continue working in Camera Raw...work on an image and then option click on Save to add that images or series of images to the processing cue...

                        While you may think you've got a particular workflow that you think works for you...there's nothing about your workflow that is special. Lots of shooter have to burn through the cards and pump out tons of images. And while you may THINK your old CS2 workflow "worked for you" I think it was inefficient and slower than working smarter and using automation and a more efficient workflow.

                        And while you may be proud of how many shoots you do per year, I would argue if you are working that much with so little time on each job to spend a reasonable amount of time working on each without being sleep deprived and without a life, then you are simply not charging enough. Too much work and not enough time = not charging enough for you to say no when you want to. But that doesn't have anything directly to do with your digital workflow other than to point out what you were doing was not optimal, ya know?
                        • 89. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                          Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                          >you CAN process them out of Camera Raw in the background while Camera Raw is hosting the plug-in.

                          I suspect that's a typo, and what Jeff meant was "you CAN process them out of Camera Raw in the background while Bridge is hosting the plug-in.
                          • 90. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                            Level 1
                            Actually, you can do it either way...but yes, I meant CR hosted inside of Bridge, not Photoshop...

                            • 91. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                              Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                              The typo actually had "Camera Raw hosting the plug-in", so in effect hosting itself. :D
                              • 92. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                Level 1
                                OK Jeff here goes..........I guess expletive was the wrong word but angry and biting was a bit more what it sounded like. Other's emailed me
                                privately not to take it to heart. Well I tried your advice and the advice of other's on dpreview and it helped. I truly had no idea that Bridge is a separate entity that opens up in PS as well as being usable on it's own for Raw conversion. I thought that Bridge was a viewer and organizer. It now works like PS2 did for me albeit somewhat slower. But I can now take my 300 images and correct and save. I am elated! Listen jeff I take 700-1600 images a night. I convert and correct them and send the DVD off to my lab to have proofs made for my clients. My clientel base are traditional and are absolutely not interested in online proofing via a web site key. So if I do not handle that case load every night after I finish my jobs (around 10:30 when I come home to start on the production of the Lab DVD-while my crew finishes off the wedding) I would never be able to finish. Opening up 300 images out of 1200 for instance helps me take that large clump correct it and go to the next large clump instead of doing 50 at a time and waiting for them to process so that I could do the next 50. It just feels better and I can get some other work done while my computer chews through the batch.
                                It is obvious to me now that CS3 was radically changed in this respect and was locked down precluding people like me from working in this fashion. I understand where you are coming from (in the prevention of errors and crashes-which I never once experienced in CS2) but a limit like that is a catastrophe for someone like me who needs to process, burn and proof all my images so that my client can use them as a reference to pick out their Album prints. I now understand the anger towards me on the part of the PS writer's as i was using PS for a usage for which it was not intended (although I did get away with it NICELY). I guess Gucci would get angry at me if I took a designer shoe and used it as a hammer.
                                I am not proud of how many shots I do per year. I go out to work each day wondering how long I can still hold out, and if this won't be my last year. I just wanted you and everyone reading this post to understand my work load. I AM very proud of the fact that I am up every night the entire night fixing each and every image so that my client is getting the best product that I can provide for the money they spent. I am very much aware that most of the Studio's in my neighborhood do not do that. But I see the results and so does my clientèle.
                                I know you think I am a bone head and I have a lousy workflow. Being one of the creator's of PS you are probably correct from your perspective. But neither did I go to school to learn photography but I got where I am today by trying out new things and preservering reading, learning and asking. I guess the photographer's who did graduate some respectable school think I am a bone head too.

                                So I would like to humbly thank you for your great product and at least if you locked things down in CS3 (for our own good) you gave me the ability to continue with my old methods in Bridge and ACR!
                                • 93. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                  Ramón G Castañeda Level 4
                                  >albeit somewhat slower

                                  Make sure you have updated to Bridge 2.1.

                                  You may have confused Jeff Schewe with Thomas Knoll.
                                  • 94. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                    Wolf Eilers Level 4
                                    Here's my summary of the recent postings in this thread: wow!
                                    • 95. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                      Level 1
                                      "angry and biting"

                                      Nope...you still got that wrong. I was blunt-you know, to the point (to get your attention). And neither Photoshop nor Camera Raw are "my" products...although I have had some interaction with Thomas on developing a tiny part of Camera Raw 4.1-the new sharpening...

                                      I'm glad you finally grok the part that Camera Raw can either be hosted by Bridge or Photoshop. . .(and actually if you want to get REAL confused, it can be hosted by both at the same time-that's always fun to demo).

                                      If you are not actually opening images into Photoshop for the purpose of Photoshop type editing or printing, I think working from Bridge _WILL_ be faster once you get over the learning curve...using either Camera Raw or Image Processor to process files in the background while you continue to work on Bridge in the foreground is going to speed your workflow.

                                      The only slight delay will be waiting for Bridge to build thumbnails-I would suggest that for YOUR use, be sure to set your Bridge preferences NOT to build High Quality previews-that will go a lot faster. And as Ramón says, be sure to update to Bridge 2.1.

                                      And I STILL think if you are working too hard, you aren't charging enough...that was one of the hardest lessons I had to learn in the foto-biz...cause you see, I am a photographer too. And while I didn't have to deal with processing and burning to DVD, I've had times & situations where I shot a bit more than 1600 images in a day...down in Antarctica. In about 18 days I shot just under 200 gigs of images-and downloading, organizing, viewing and backing up to a 2nd drive then going back out to shoot more got to be a habit. So I know a little something about dealing with "gigage"...

                                      See: Antarctica Expedition

                                      It also features shots of Thomas Knoll-who also went on the trip and also shoots...so it's not like these guys sit around inside doing coding all the time. They have real world experience in the same sort of issues the "real" photographers have. Actually, Thomas is a pretty good shooter in his own right...

                                      • 96. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                        LRK 2 Level 2
                                        Okay, now that was fun. Loved seeing the team in action. Can't believe you did the polar plunge though. Hats off to 70 year old Art!

                                        Enjoyed seeing some of the ice berg shots. They are quite beautiful. Some of the seals were amazing too.

                                        > Left: Seth shooting with his favorite lensa 300mm F2.8, handheld of course-he has a special technique of two-shooting, meaning clicking the shutter twice in rapid succession, that seems to produce a sharp image with the second shot almost every time. Right: Seth Chimping.

                                        Great tip!
                                        • 97. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                          How do I stop Bridge/ACR from Processing files automatically?

                                          Yes I have turned it off in previous versions without problems but still can't find this in Bridge CS3 workflow. Actually Bridge is doing this processing.

                                          If I open up a JPG or Tiff in ACR 4.1 all the sliders are on zero values. But if I open a RAW up in ACR 4.1 Ill have values in Blacks, Brightness,Contrast, Clarity, Vibrance even the sharpening tools will have values dependent on the image, which Bridge must have "helped" out in some sort of preprocessing.

                                          Now I have a problem, in which, a few RAW shots were intentionally bracketed as to get the best effect. When I look at them through bridge/ACR, because they have been adjusted automatically, there all the same.

                                          How does one stop this processing?

                                          • 98. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                            Ann Shelbourne Level 1
                                            UNcheck the Default Image Settings in ACR 4.1's Prefs..
                                            • 99. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                              John_Cornicello_Photo Level 2
                                              I believe the name for the setting is "Apply auto tone adjustments".

                                              But also note that (I THINK!) that when a raw image first appears in Bridge it briefly shows the built-in JPG preview. Then a second or so later it shows you the raw file. So you may still see the images change as they come into Bridge. But the Exposure, Recovery, and Fill Light sliders should be zero'd out in Camera Raw.

                                              • 100. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                                Ann Shelbourne Level 1
                                                That is one of them John.
                                                But in ACR 4.1, in the "Default Image Settings" section, there are also check boxes to apply particular camera and ISO settings.
                                                • 101. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                                  Hudechrome-sd9sPI Level 2
                                                  I would prefer all the sharpen also to be zeroed out in default. I was surprised to see default settings appear when I first opened 4.1. Not all that serious an application but nontheless, there.
                                                  • 102. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                                    Level 1
                                                    "I would prefer all the sharpen also to be zeroed out in default"

                                                    Well, by default previous CR versions had an amount at 25 for default and the new sharpening is intended to work with old sharpeing amounts but with the new controls...so, no, that wasn't thought to be a good idea...

                                                    You can choose to only apply sharpening to the preview (in CR preferences) or change, by camera serial or ISO what YOU want the default to be or you can use saved sharpening subsettings...lots of ways to skin that cat.

                                                    But part of the new sharpening's dictates from Thomas were to be able to match the effective strength of the old sharpening but be better, oh, and also to be able to make the image look like crap by oversharpening if people want to "pixel-peep" [direct quote] and then lower the amount to a reasonable ammount. That's why it goes to 150...

                                                    • 103. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                                      Hudechrome-sd9sPI Level 2
                                                      Good. I did a quick search for that apply check box and missed it, and I figured it was no longer around.

                                                      My bad!

                                                      If that's the case, then I no longer will worry that early images are not sharpened and later ones are. That only leaves what I want to do with Clarity.

                                                      Clarity as a PS item would be a welcome addition, as I could do either-or with Contrast Coating and decide. Or even have it on separate layers.

                                                      Pixel-peep! Mr Peeps himself! :D
                                                      • 104. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                                        Hudechrome-sd9sPI Level 2
                                                        Looking at suggested workflow between sharpening and defringing, if defringing is to be carried out first, and sharpening after, having preset sharpening appears to be counter productive. I do what, set sharpening to zero, defringe the go back? I would rather have the choice to apply on screen at the with the sharpening tools, especially if one has a specific setup running.

                                                        The best I can see to do is have a preset for sharpening at zero and go there first.
                                                        • 105. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                                          Level 1
                                                          > "Looking at suggested workflow between sharpening and defringing, if defringing is to be carried out first, and sharpening after, having preset sharpening appears to be counter productive. I do what, set sharpening to zero, defringe the go back?"

                                                          If you are trying to decide what the values of the sharpening presets should be, based on experiments with various images, then I do believe you should clean up the image in the Lens tab first, because the fringes confuse things when examining the effects of the sharpening.

                                                          But ... once you have saved the sharpening presets, I believe you are probably safe to apply them first on a new image, then go to the Lens tab to sort things out there. You don't need the Lens corrections applied before you can apply the sharpening preset, because you don't need to examine the image in detail to choose and apply the preset. And with reasonable sharpening already applied, a test suggests to me that you can still sort out the Lens corrections.

                                                          (That is, visible fringing interferes with setting the sharpening sliders, but reasonable capture sharpening still allows Lens corrections sliders to be set).

                                                          I need to do more tests, but I think this will work.
                                                          • 106. Re: Camera Raw 4.1
                                                            Hudechrome-sd9sPI Level 2
                                                            Thanks. Now all we need is an easy way to suspend the default sharpening w/o having to continually reset prefs to do so. The more I use RAW, the more I sense a need for such capability, ala PS filters. I have several filters at a preset or default value, but they don't apply until I tell it to. here, we get it as default.
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