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You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I do not see this happening
there at all. What gives you this impression? Bear in mind that there is
not much GL experience on the DW forums. Perhaps this is what is coloring
There has been an inferiority issue with Mac web designers as they have been in a bubble without the ability to see what their work looks like on the most used browser. While a skilled designer can certainly work on Mac, the majority of Mac DW or GL users are sadly blind.
You will probably see DW Windows user look down on DW Mac users too.
>The DW forum is really geared for experts
So are you looking for a forum filled with idiots? :)
Those experts were noobs at one point as well. Stick with it and become an expert.
I see we all have our opinions :-)
The differences in the two programs can be quite daunting. Terminology is different, interface is different, many tasks require quite different approaches.
Those of us who got quite proficient in GL (I've been with it since CyberStudio) are now faced with a substantially slower work process in the transition. Especially those of us with many large and complex sites
Thankfully, I can charge for it, but others may not be so fortunate.
There does seem to be some Mac bias over there, and am willing to overlook that, but there does not seem to be any experts who know the intricacies of both programs. It's better now than it was when some of the Macromedia people were downright gloating.
Thought the transition forum here would be more lively. Loved this forum and the people in its day.
For that reason, was hoping to know if there are other, more targeted forums for DW/GL
> You will probably see DW Windows user look down on DW Mac users too.
I see absolutely no evidence of that. Many of the serious developers are
both, you know?
Is there anyone who can answer my original question?
There is no good answer to your original question. There is no one struggling with a transition from GL to DW. There is only a struggle of those new to DW. Try throwing out old knowledge. Don't act as someone who has used GL. Hanging on to certain workflows is what keeps us from moving forward.
It seems the biggest problem that GL->DW users face is understanding a new way to design. Many GL users will claim DW is for coders. The hang-up is based on the GL user being too accustomed to the method used in GL to assume any other application is capable of design. The GL user just needs to be introduced to the design method in DW. Video training is usually ideal. Look at lynda.com
Nicely stated, Jim. And I think you have scored a bingo with it.
Why did I know this would turn into a Lynda infomercial? :-)
I think you are wrong here and speak mostly for yourself (and your apparent fan base ;-))
Those that only know DW have no preconceived ideas about how workflow should work and ease of use. Not knowing GL is a benefit. We were spoiled with GL.
To ask for a support group where two can be compared by tasks is not an unusual request.
Good that most are quietly biting the bullet.
That being said, I've used (and for the most part, mastered) most of the basic core Adobe programs for many many years. Programs like PS, AI, ID are brilliant in the interface and for how intuitive they are to use. I use them throughout the day - every day.
Adobe took a great program, Cyberstudio and made it even better (I was amazed). It was such a good fit with the Adobe core products.
DW is still an old Macromedia design, and has not received the benefit of the kind of tweaking and redesign that will enable it to be as efficient as the other Adobe programs (well, Flash needs work, too :-), but that is also a carry-over).
I look forward to the day when DW blossoms into a real Adobe product. Until then, I'll get into with it marginally (use it to validate my GL sites, etc.). I do have two sites using it. My business would suffer if I depended on it entirely right now.
> My business would suffer if I depended on it entirely right now.
I have already taken some serious financial losses due to down time trying to make this transition. I take responsibility for part of my losses, also part was related to current web standards, but a good part of it has been related to having to solve so many incompatibility issues between the two programs and the purchased plugins/extensions that had to be converted. But worse than the financial loss has been the feeling of helplessness that I have not always been able to complete what I promised in the time that was promised.
Now I'm building a new website, with another one on it's heels. I am determined to keep moving forward with Dreamweaver even though I am constantly reminded of extra (nonchargeable) time it is taking.
> I look forward to the day when DW blossoms into a real Adobe product.
I don't foresee it changing into a GoLive interface. But I do wish the site window could work the same way. I also wish Library Items could work like Components do, but then there might be problems with validation... I guess what I'm saying is that it's not just DW that's changed things; it's the way the internet is being standardized. That's not a bad thing overall, but can be a real problem for those of us stuck in the old ways.
>Not knowing GL is a benefit. We were spoiled with GL.
So stick with GL. Why do you feel you need to ditch GL? There is no logic in abandoning an app that works well for you. This may be why you have trouble learning DW.
> So stick with GL. Why do you feel you need to ditch GL? There is no logic in abandoning an app that works well for you. This may be why you have trouble learning DW.
There's no logic in your question either. It's obvious that I am not allowing myself to be stuck in GoLive time. There is too much at stake down the road. Not sure if I interpreted your tone right, but I thought my response was sensible and objective, if it came across as I intended.
I plan to post, and post, and post, one question after another, along with studying my arsenal of resource books, until I get where I need to be in this transition from GoLive to Dreamweaver.
My mistake. I see what you were responding to now. Please forgive my reaction. I thought you were responding to my post #9. I didn't see the quote until after I posted.
[quote] So stick with GL. Why do you feel you need to ditch GL? There is no logic in abandoning an app that works well for you. This may be why you have trouble learning DW.[/quote]
The logic is quite simple. Adobe canned GL and is not updating it. They left us with no options except to eventually switch to another, more current, web editing program.
You miss the point that some of us do this for a living and own our own businesses.
Time is everything.
LRK hits my sentiments exactly. We do what we need to do to keep our business.
>They left us with no options...
Your inability to continue to use a perfectly usable application (GoLive) is why you have trouble migrating. You're nuts. :) I still have LiveMotion and PageMill installed on my computer. Gun-toting Adobe thugs did not come to my door and force me to remove these apps when they were discontinued.
HTML is HTML. If you really wanted a more current application, you would have already switched to a server-based CMS and given up your reliance on either GL or DW to manage a site.
There are people on the GoLive forum that are still working in version 6 because of it's Dynamic Content function. They purposefully did not want to upgrade GL to 7, 8 or 9 - - where that function was dropped.
I don't miss any point. I'm not here for giggles either. Professionals use the tools available to them and they do so in a professional manner. Whining and helplessness is not professional. If you think the license of GoLive that is currently sitting on your computer has stopped working then you are clearly in the wrong profession.
Please excuse the tone but you have to recognize the lunacy being presented. The reason why you see so few in your 'support group' is because there are so few that are thinking like you. Adjust your thoughts and enjoy life. The sky is not falling.
Further, it would be ideal if you actually posted a GL->DW question in the GoLive forums before being critical of support group options. This GL->DW transition forum exists specifically for you (...and me, and Linda, and Murray, and George). I just did a forum search and found that you have not presented any previous GL->DW issue here. So what problem are you dealing with? Start a new, dedicated thread with that problem. We're the support group.
I have to say, I do appreciate those of you who've stuck it out, and stayed on with this forum to offer help where you can.
It seems the group is getting smaller and smaller, and yet there are still those faithful ones who are here for us. I know sometimes we tend shoot the messenger, so-to-speak. The ones who make themselves available to help us end up being the ones who get the brunt of our frustrations. My appreciation has grown recently as I realize how handicapped I would be had not Murray, Jim, Nate, John, Kath, and so many others over the years, stepped up and taken time out of their schedule to respond to my questions, and cries for help... and probably now more than ever.
> There are people on the GoLive forum that are still working in version 6 because of it's Dynamic Content function. They purposefully did not want to upgrade GL to 7, 8 or 9 - - where that function was dropped.
Interesting. I still have GoLive 6 but when I was using it, I had not ventured into Dynamic Content. I just wonder what kind of code GL 6 generates. :-)
> If you really wanted a more current application, you would have already
> switched to a server-based CMS and given up your reliance on either GL or
> DW to manage a site.
I take serious issue with this - CMS has not replaced independent HTML
authoring by a long shot.
Murray, you're taking issue by not recognizing the complete statement regarding site management. CMS != HTML so you cannot compare the two (and neither was I). 'Site management' was briefly, and repeatedly, brought up earlier in this thread as an issue with transition from GL->DW..
Modern web authoring spends a relatively small amount of the time styling/theming (with GoLive, Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Fireworks) and the rest of the time wrangling content in the CMS. mrsnak was looking for ' another, more current, web editing program'. If you're really looking for another program to make static pages like you always have in the past, you've already outdated yourself. DW is not the future. Your ability to handle the changing web is the future.
Sorry to be so harsh initially, but I probably deserved the harsh responses back.
I still use LiveMotion for all my simple Flash work, and always amazed that it still works (sort of).
Only concerned that the near future Mac OS may not support GL. DW will because Adobe is behind it, so I buckle down.
Of course the future is changing. DW will adapt. I've seen a myriad of changes since beginning doing websites in 1994, so of course what's current today will not be tomorrow.
DW, for me, is not so much adapting as it doing the same thing a different way. GL writes some code that is outdated and needs manual fixing. DW is current. This is what I meant be "current program" It also lacks, as does GL, better CSS implementation.
CMS is getting there. I have a site in Sitecore, now, but it's tough to set up and expensive. Good once things are set up right.
Don't think that I don't appreciate this forum and the smart participants who've helped me over the years.
mrsnak, I totally understand. I've been all over the place with my reactions since the initial realization that Adobe was actually going to "forsake" (still have to dig a little <g>) it's faithful GoLive users.<br /><br />I just have had to realize what's done is done, and if I don't get on board, I get left behind. So my attitude has had a few makeovers, and continues with them, in order to adapt to the future. And who's to say, if GoLive was dropped, the same could happen to DW if it's not cost effective down the road.<br /><br />I just wish my grey matter would respond better to the new pathways I keep trying to forge in my head.<br /><br />Remember Churchill... "Never give up!" ;-)
It would take a remarkable amount of R&D to come up with another versatile web creation program at this point. Don't see anyone developing anything until the web completely changes structure and html is dead.
I think DW trumping GL was more like VHS winning over Betamax ;-)