4 Replies Latest reply: Apr 9, 2008 4:24 PM by JETalmage RSS

    Help with Path Manipulation

    MT.Freelance Community Member
      I am a long time Freehand user. I am accustomed to selecting a path to see the control points, then selecting the points to manipulate the shape of the path. One tool. Simple. Easy. Reliable.

      It seems that no matter what I try, Illustrator CS & CS2 (and every other version that I've tried since version 4) will not consistently allow a similar process.

      The only way I seem to be able to manipulate the shape of a path is to blindly hover the direct selection tool over the edge of the path, looking for the magic hollow box to appear on the icon to tell me I am over a control point, and that by clicking, I will be able to edit that point alone.

      What happens time after frustrating time again is that the entire object is selected and is moved instead of the singular point of the path that I want to manipulate.

      Please tell me, for the sake of my sanity: What I am doing wrong? Why I cannot reliably and consistently select a single point of a path to manipulate the shape? Is there a keyboard modifier that I need to hold to select the point and manipulate that unique point alone?

      Is there a way to increase the hit zone or threshold for this tool to give me a larger click target? (since no matter how far I zoom in, naturally, the control points and bezier curve dongles remain the same miniscule size on screen and if I am one pixel off the single pixel dot, then I end up deselecting the entire thing...)

      Is there a way that I can select an object to see the various points that make it up, and then be able to select and manipulate a single point without the entire shape moving?

      Is there a Illustrator for Frustrated Freehand users book somewhere out there?

      ^_^ Sheesh. Now I know how some former Quark users feel when migrating to InDesign.

      -mt
        • 1. Re: Help with Path Manipulation
          NotInUse Community Member
          Michael,

          This isn't much help to you now, but CS3 added the ability to select a path, then click a single anchor point on that path to edit it. CS3 also adds a larger anchor point setting and the ability to increase the "click target" as you put it.

          Unfortunately, with CS and CS2, there's not much that can be done for you. I've never been a Freehand user, but I will agree the points you bring up were incredibly frustrating in CS and CS2.
          • 2. Re: Help with Path Manipulation
            Doug Katz Community Member
            As a former diehard FreeHand user who surrendered kicking and screaming to Illustrator's path selection and manipulation conventions, I can recommend four things:

            1. Upgrade to CS3 (although even this version falls pitifully shy of FreeHand's parsimony and grace).

            2. Turn on Smart Guides which will be annoying, and will not make the manual process of selecting individual points any easier but will provide a second form of feedback about your location. I keep them on except when I'm setting type.

            3. Let FreeHand's convenient, intelligent, friendly ways recede quietly into your most inaccessible psychic recesses. Try to let them go. Eventually, you'll forget how considerate the program was; you'll just do it the Illustratror way.

            4. Come here frequently to be reminded that FreeHand isn't and was never superior to Illustrator in this regard. It was just "different." Regular visits will reward you with admonitions like, "If you think so highly of FreeHand, why don't you just go use it and stop polluting this forum with your whining." In time, you'll just stop whining and get on with the work you have to do.

            Enjoy.
            • 3. Re: Help with Path Manipulation
              MT.Freelance Community Member
              The truly sad part is... I find manipulating shapes in InDesign simpler and more user friendly than in Illustrator. Unfortunately, not all of the capabilities are present as far as the pathfinder is concerned.

              Many a time, I will create the shapes needed in InDesign then copy/paste into Illy for more complex path editing.

              Not a very streamlined workflow, though.

              Scott, it is good to hear that there is light on the horizon.

              Doug, back in the days of Illy 4 and Freehand 5, I had the opportunity to test both. AI4 was cumbersome and clunky and lacked the ease of use of Freehand. So, I stuck with FH5, 7, 9, MX... I am sad to see it fall to the wayside. Now, EIGHT versions of AI later (not counting CS3), and I still find FH5 better when it comes to editing a path...

              Thanks for the comments.

              -mt
              • 4. Re: Help with Path Manipulation
                JETalmage Community Member
                Michael,

                Some of this may help:

                The basic path selection is "inverted". In FreeHand, the primary selection tool is the black pointer. In AI, the primary selection tool is the white pointer. But that's not what I mean by "inverted." This is:

                In FH (starting with the black pointer), as you know, you first make a general selection (the whole path); then you "drill down" to more specific sub-parts (points, segments, handles.)

                In AI, (starting with the white pointer) the first click makes a rock-bottom-level selection (a single point or segment); then, subsequent clicks (while pressing Alt) "selects up" to increasingly general selections (the whole path, then the group, etc.) This assumes you are clicking on the path with the first click, not on its fill. Clicking the fill selects all the path's points.

                This selection of the tiniest subpart at the first click is what makes Illustrator feel like trying to eat spagetti with a chopstick, to a FH user. If you're like me, you will learn to deal with it, but you will never really get over it. It is excruciatingly awkward in comparision to FH. I am convinced that fundamental "upside-down-ness" is at the core of much of Illustrator's selection inferiority.

                It also makes the need for modifiers feel "upside down" to a FH user. In AI, you usually (I will not say always) want to have the white pointer in hand when manipulating paths. That means you have to get accustomed to usually modifying your first click in order to grab the whole path (actually, all its points). In FH, the most usually-needed behavior is more consistently the one which does not require a modifier. To be efficient in AI, there are many more keyboard shortcuts to commit to memory than necessary to be (more) efficient in FH.

                The select-from-the-bottom vs. select-from-the-top trade-off is not really symmetrical. These caveats further contribute to the confusion (and comparitive inelegance) of AI:

                Using Only One Pointer. As you know, in FH there is absolutely no need at all to ever touch the white pointer. The white pointer didn't even appear until around version 8 (as I recall), and was nothing more than a worthless concession to AI users. Even after its appearance, most proficient FH users pretty much completely ignored the silly white pointer. There was literally nothing that it did that could not already be done with the black pointer. The white pointer only really ever gained a legitimate reason for existence with MXa, when FH gained its on-object grad and shape primitive parameter handles (none of which AI has, by the way.)

                Now, you will run across many proficient AI users who will tell you that they similarly "never" use AI's black pointer. They think this argument of FH users is therefore bogus; a simple trade-off.

                Not so. In FH you truly give up nothing by using only the black pointer. You lose no access to handles, or object-level bounding box corners, etc. You can transform an object by its handles, or by dragging a transform tool. In AI, you do give up some things. Selected so-called AreaType objects act differently, because you are really selecting the containing path, not its text frame. Bounding box transform handles do not appear. (It's no accident that the same AI users often also claim to never use the bounding box.)

                FH knows the difference between a path being selected as an object and merely having all its points selected. Illustrator doesn't. A completely selected path in illustrator has all its points subselected. Period. That's related to other shortcomings, like AI's very late-coming (and still significantly inferior) ability to align points.

                For example: In CS3 (what... after 20+ years?) Illustrator has finally gained some ability to perform Alignments on points. But try performing an alignment that involves all of a path's points, as can be intuitively and consistently done in FH.

                Inconsistent behaviors. FH lets you either bend or move a segment, and it does so consistently, be it curved or straight. AltClick, then drag a segment to move it. AltClick then AltDrag it to bend it. In AI, drag an already curved segment and it bends; but drag a straight segment and it moves. (This, despite the straight segment's associated anchorpoints being ostensibly "unselected".) This inability to directly bend straight segments is exacerbated by the next inability:

                Inability to extract single handles. In FH, without changing tools, AltDrag a single retracted handle from a point, without changing the point kind. In AI, change to a "Convert Anchor Point Tool" and extract both points at once (disturbing both segments) and converting the corner point to a smooth point. Then do more work to restore the segment you didn't want disturbed in the first place.

                Deleting endpoints. In FH, if an endpoint of a path is selected, delete removes the endpoint and leaves the previous point selected. This lets you "back up" point-by-point when drawing paths. In AI, deleting a selected endpoint deletes that endpoint and then leaves all the rest of the path's points selected. So a second delete deletes the whole path.

                Deselect to end a path. In FH, when drawing with the Pen, a simple doubleClick when placing a point ends the path and leaves it selected. In AI, you must deselect the path (or switch tools, etc.) to end it.

                Failure to restore the previous selection state. FH's Undo reliably restores the exact previous selection state when you Undo. In several not-uncommon situations, AI does not.

                No live shape primitives. Despite Illustrator's much ballyhooed emphasis on "live" effects, to this day it still has no live shape primitives (rectangle, ellipse, star, polygon) with adjustable geometric parameters. Once a path is drawn with AI's shape primitive tools, it's just a lame, ordinary path.

                These differences, combined with Illustrator's general sluggishness, increased clutter, less-reliable accuracy, and disorganized interface are not easily forgotten by proficient FH users, even after becoming proficient in AI (despite what Doug says). It's real hard for a FH user to feel "proud & friendly" with AI.

                Before someone answers "That's your opinion, James"...yes, that's my opinion. ;-)

                JET