21 Replies Latest reply: Dec 23, 2008 5:46 AM by badchess RSS

    Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3

    badchess Community Member
      I have a rather complicated Guilloché pattern to be used for a financial document. The pattern is a huge circular thing with several hundred thousand points, and I only need to utilize a rectangular portion of it.

      Ill actually need to print 3/page, so Ill need to repeat the rectangular part thrice.

      In CS3 (or earlier) is there any way of chopping out the extras? It is a couple of hundred thousand points as it is, and once I make it three-up it will really be taxing my system.

      Ive tried the erase tool but it distorts the pattern.

      Ive tried outlining the stroke and using the pathfinder pallet (trying to subtract a shape from it). The computer is actually thinking about that right now. However on screen once I outline the stroke the pattern appears darker. Would I be correct in thinking that is just a figment of my monitors imagination and wont carry over to print?

      I suppose I could go in with the scissors tool and manually cut thousands of paths, but Id rather not.

      Is there some other clever way of doing this?
        • 1. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
          Kurt Gold Community Member
          Philip, do you have access to Corel Draw? Even a trial might help.

          Draw has got very robust cutting tools which respect stroked paths. Of course, cropping hundred of thousands of paths is a critical challenge in any programme, but Draw has one of the best cropping tools out there, in my experience.

          Try it, perhaps you'll be successful.
          • 2. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
            Gernot Hoffmann Community Member
            Philip,

            by InDesign:

            New doc. Place graphic. Crop (very simpel,
            works without a clipping mask). Export as PDF.
            So far, the vector information of unvisible
            parts is still in the file, but the access
            to the visible parts is fast (unvisible parts
            can be excluded after a few calculations).

            New doc. Place PDF three times. Add other
            elements. Export as PDF.
            At this stage, the file size is approximately
            three times the size of the cropped part.

            Tests by ID CS2. Placing PDFs works of course
            in AI as well.

            Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann
            • 3. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
              Community Member
              Philip, one more simple idea, which Gernot's idea makes me think of.

              This one works with Adobe Illustrator only, where you asked this question, instead of InDesign - though that was a good thought too.

              - Bring your huge diagram into Illustrator, as you planned.

              - But instead of cutting it everywhere, use the Crop Area Tool. This should be on your left-hand palette, just above the hand tool. Mark the area you want to keep and hit return, and take the default settings from the dialog.

              - Now, use File:Save as, and save an Illustrator file with a new name that holds this crop. You could just use your original, but this is safe.

              - finally, create or open your final assembly Illustrator file. Use File:Place to place the cropped AI file you just made. Be _sure_ to check the box for Link. You can place as many times as you want, to get multiple copies.

              Ok. Now, your assembly AI file has the multiple copies. You can scale and move them there to get layout. To edit their contents, edit your cropped AI file that you saved. When you go back to the assembly file, update the links, using Window:Links, if it doesn't give you a dialog to do this automatically -- and your result is in each of the copies on the page, magically.

              There's more you can learn about the Linked file idea, using the Help, but this will get you what you want, Philip, and it doesn't need InDesign or Acrobat.

              Bonne fortune et salud!
              Clive
              • 4. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                JETalmage Community Member
                Clive,

                A Crop Area does not trim the artwork. It only masks it.

                Philip,

                Once you've trimmed the artwork, converting it to a Symbol and using three Instances on the page will avoid the file bloat problem of multiple copies.

                As for actually doing the cutting; you're on your own there. Illustrator simply does not have a decent way to cut a bunch of open unfilled paths. One of the most ridiculous omissions in this archaic program.

                If it were mine, I would take the artwork to FreeHand or Draw, where the cutting can be accomplished lickety-split.

                JET
                • 5. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                  Gernot Hoffmann Community Member
                  This was the question:
                  'Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3'

                  Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann
                  • 6. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                    Kurt Gold Community Member
                    No, this was the headline, Gernot.

                    Philip's description clearly indicates that he is going to trim the construction, not just to mask it.

                    Therefore the recommendation to do it in a programme that has better tools for that task.
                    • 7. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                      Gernot Hoffmann Community Member
                      Read post #2.
                      • 8. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                        Kurt Gold Community Member
                        Gernot,

                        I've read all posts in this thread. Post #6 is an answer to the somewhat useless comment in post #5
                        • 9. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                          Community Member
                          Kurt, I'm not sure why you entered the flow of solutions with your comments.

                          Philip only talked about cutting because that seemed the way to reduce to the diagram he wanted. Masking is exceptionally more efficient, and preserves the ability to make modifications, which may originate outside the desired viewing area, but have effects there.

                          If you want a truly 'cut' version, you can get it by printing to PDF, and then opening the result with Illustrator. I didn't suggest it because I'm not sure whether Philip has a suite including Acrobat.

                          Please try not to be rude to those who are trying to be practical, and helpful - thanks.

                          Regards,
                          Clive
                          • 10. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                            JETalmage Community Member
                            > If you want a truly 'cut' version, you can get it by printing to PDF, and then opening the result with Illustrator.

                            No, you'll just get yet another convoluted workflow resulting in mere masking.

                            If you just want to mask the dang thing, create a clipping mask, make it a Symbol. No need to involve external AI documents, InD or PDF.

                            But the question is clearly about CUTTING AWAY the unneeded majority of "a couple of hundred thousand points".

                            JET
                            • 11. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                              Gernot Hoffmann Community Member
                              The finally resulting PDF in my workflow, as explained
                              in post #2, contains three identical vector graphics.
                              Each one is the cropped version of a much larger vector
                              graphic. This means:

                              Vector elements which were entirely outside the cropping
                              rectangle are deleted.

                              Vector elements which are entirely inside are shown as
                              they are.

                              Vector elements which are partly inside and partly outside
                              are preserved as paths, but stroking and/or filling is
                              controlled by the cropping rectangle as a clipping path.

                              The deeper reason for this strategy is probably the fact,
                              that the calculation of new paths, which respect the clipping
                              boundary, isn't simple, especially not for Bézier paths.

                              Yes, almost all the unnecessary stuff is cut away, but this
                              doesn't work like cutting with a scissor.

                              Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann
                              • 12. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                                JETalmage Community Member
                                > Vector elements which were entirely outside the cropping
                                rectangle are deleted. [Emphasis mine.]

                                Gernot, simple exercise:

                                1. New letter-size document.

                                2. Ellipse tool: .5" horizontal x .125" vertical ellipse, centered on the page. Hairline stroke (.25 pt, since AI can't do a proper hairline), no fill.

                                3. Transform Effect: 999 copies. Horizontal scale: 100.5%, Vertical scale: 100.05%. Rotate: 37 degrees.

                                That's just a thousand paths. Now draw a crop area measuring 2" square anywhere in the denser, more interesting area of the pattern; make your PDF. Then dissect your PDF and see how many objects are masked, not cropped.

                                > The deeper reason for this strategy is probably the fact,
                                that the calculation of new paths, which respect the clipping
                                boundary, isn't simple, especially not for Bézier paths.

                                Other programs have been able to accomplish the calculations necessary to cut across multiple Bezier paths for decades. Illustrator's Knife can do it, too...just not for open, unfilled paths.

                                I see no reason to try to concoct excuses for that ridiculous functional omission.

                                JET
                                • 13. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                                  Kurt Gold Community Member
                                  To see how complicated the common task of really trimming is in Illustrator, you may also want to comb through this thread we were discussing about two years ago:

                                  http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?128@@.3bc363dd

                                  Inside the thread you can find some workarounds which may work for you, Philip.
                                  • 14. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                                    JETalmage Community Member
                                    Be aware that the Outline Pathfinder creates breaks wherever paths intersect. In a "spirographic" kind of pattern, there will be many intersecting paths.

                                    JET
                                    • 15. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                                      Kurt Gold Community Member
                                      Yes, and there are some more drawbacks as well. That's why I'd still recommend to take Draw as an assistant in that case.
                                      • 16. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                                        Community Member
                                        James, whether you get the whole thing cropped, or a crop itself depends on what you specify as far as preserving Illustrator editability.

                                        Your thought of the clipping rectangle is the best yet, though. No exporting or printing needed.

                                        If Illustrator is half as smart as I think it is, there won't be any computation done on the masked parts, so this solution is for the purposes of 3 copies at least pretty much as efficient as cutting, without the high inefficiency of actually cutting.

                                        Yes?

                                        Regards,
                                        Clive
                                        • 17. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                                          JETalmage Community Member
                                          > Yes?

                                          No.

                                          JET
                                          • 18. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                                            badchess Community Member
                                            Play nice guys, and thanks for all the suggestions.

                                            It was sent to me from a cs3 machine and I was trying to work it with cs2.

                                            Once I opened it on cs3 I was able to outline the stroke and use the knife tool (which kept going awry in cs2).

                                            It displays on screen as much darker, but appears to print about the same (I hope).
                                            • 19. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                                              Community Member
                                              Philip, glad it worked out.

                                              And Jim, in the spirit of the lesson in Scrooge's story, how about we agree there are many suitable ways to slice bread, or delimit a picture. Haven't understood the young buck attitude at all.

                                              C.
                                              • 20. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                                                JETalmage Community Member
                                                A Christmas Carol teaches a lesson about slicing bread and paths?

                                                JET
                                                • 21. Re: Simplifying Guilloché pattern with cs3
                                                  badchess Community Member
                                                  A very special Adobe Christmas Carol, starring JohnBoy.