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1. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(chumley) Mar 6, 2008 4:35 PM (in response to (chumley))A new observation ... this appears to occur only in text blocks which contain footnotes. The footnotes do not necessarily need to be on the same page as the offending hyphen, but a document without footnotes does not appear to cause the same crash as indicated by my first post. -
2. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(doc_bud) Mar 6, 2008 6:18 PM (in response to (chumley))I don't know if it's a bug or not.
Are you using single-line or paragraph composer? (I'm guessing the latter)
Maybe your composer selection, H&Js, and such are too strict or conflicting.
No disrespect intended chumley, but it's possible nothing was found at this forum about this problem because either it's a conflict you created, or because no one has had the problem.
It's possible there is a bug. But my first thought is that settings/preferences are causing a conflict.
Hopefully the "experts" will have an answer. I do feel your pain as I've come across bugs in previous versions that I was basically told it was "operator error" but it was later found out it was indeed a bug.
Good luck as well.
doc -
3. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(Dave_Saunders) Mar 6, 2008 7:06 PM (in response to (chumley))If ID is crashing, it's a bug somewhere. ID should never crash because of settings or the like. But the bug is not necessarily in InDesign. It could be in a third-party plug-in or even somewhere in the system software.
Dave -
4. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(chumley) Mar 6, 2008 11:19 PM (in response to (chumley))I am using Paragraph Composer. However, I don't believe that ID using the paragraph composer and having the hyphenation rule prevent a break across columns is "too strict" for ID to handle.
I understand that this may not be a situation that the "average" user encounters frequently, but I've spent over 10 hours trouble-shooting and narrowing down the possible causes.
This includes all the delete prefs, reinstalls, clean new user installs, etc. The key for me is that it happens doing exactly the same thing on both a PC running WinXP, and on OS X. This pretty much confirms that it's a program issue, not a system issue.
And it doesn't happen with the same document if the hyphenation option is activated.
I would be interested to hear if somebody else can duplicate the same problem though! -
5. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(doc_bud) Mar 7, 2008 4:12 PM (in response to (chumley))From my testing:
1) ID will definitely hang/freeze if using single composer and break across columns is unchecked.
2) ID will definitely hang/freeze if using paragraph composer on most of my style sheets, but if one of my style sheets for some reason is set for single-line composer and the bad break occurs there (by me manipulating to cause it for testing purposes). [and break across columns is unchecked]
3) ID will hang if paragraph composer is used on all style sheets and break across columns is unchecked when it comes across a break and has no choice but to hyphenate across a column (i.e., it can't find a way out of it).
To me, the hang/freeze is because the program can't do what you told it to do. For example, if using single-line composer is used I can see why it would hang/freeze. ID has no way to avoid breaking a hyphen across a column.
I've experimented with a file that is several hundred pages long and filled with footnotes.
I am trying a large file without footnotes as well, but mainly concentrated on the footnote one.
I remember years ago someone was having problems printing a Quark file. Had to print out the file complete (all 500 pages). It would start to spool and then crash. Everyone was thinking font issue or bad art previews or something, but I found it immediately. It was because someone had chosen "odd pages only" when printing, and they were trying to print both odd and even pages. Quark was crashing because we were telling it to print all pages, but only odd pages was selected. It had no choice but to crash.
I know that's not the same thing, but to me the hang/freeze is because ID came across a bad break that it could not avoid, and didn't know what to do.
Or am I misunderstanding the problem?
doc -
6. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(chumley) Mar 7, 2008 10:13 PM (in response to (chumley))Thanks doc. I understand your explanation and appreciate your input.
The problem may lie in justification. Since my text styles are justified, and the default settings for justification are set to a minimum of 80% word spacing and a maximum of 133%, I guess its possible that either ID has to hyphenate a word across the column, or if it tries not to, it will violate the justified word spacing limits? Therefore, ID can't complete the function without violating one of the two rules, and subsequently crashes.
I guess what I don't understand is that its not really something that ID "can't" do. Because if break across columns is activated, and a word is hyphenated across columns, if you select the hyphenated word and then choose "no break" from the character palette, ID will reflow the line (and adjust the rest of the paragraph if set to paragraph composer) without breaking the word across the column.
So ID *can* do it with the manual "no break" selection, but won't do it automatically via the de-selection of the "break across columns" option.
I'll have to do further testing to see if the "no break" option causes the justified line percentages to exceed limits or if the paragraph composer reflows the paragraph to compensate.
Thanks for the input though. I think it's nearly solved! -
7. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(doc_bud) Mar 8, 2008 4:24 PM (in response to (chumley))Chumley--
Definitely post your results. I think it's hanging because on some line somewhere on some page, it can't get out of that bad break.
I see what you are saying about allowing it to hyphenate across columns and then making the hyphenated word "no break." But that is just over-riding what you said ID could or could not do.
Just out of curiosity, how many hyphens in a row do you allow (I only allow two)? I'm wondering if ID may also be having troubles with that parameter by forcing a whole word to the next column and then causing a hyphenation problem?
It definitely seems like ID is getting stuck thinking of what to do.
I hope you get it solved, and please post your results.
Have a good weekend.
doc -
8. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
Harbs. Mar 9, 2008 12:00 AM (in response to (doc_bud))Whatever the results, you should definitely file an official bug report.
There should be an internal way to handle un-settable type.
Harbs -
9. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(Dave_Saunders) Mar 9, 2008 7:29 AM (in response to (chumley))It took me a while to reproduce this problem. It seems that it only happens if you use a character style to apply the superscript to the footnote markers in the text. Leaving them as local formatting, the problem does not occur, although even then I do see some bad composition choices by the single-line composer.
Dave -
10. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(Dave_Saunders) Mar 9, 2008 7:47 AM (in response to (chumley))And now, I've just reproduced the problem with the paragraph composer and without a character style applied to the footnote markers.
So, there's a little rat's nest of related bugs here.
Dave -
11. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(chumley) Mar 11, 2008 4:07 PM (in response to (chumley))Ok, I've had a few minutes to play with this today and still can't conclude anything else.
My hyphenation is set to limit 3 consecutive, with 2 letters at the start/end of a 5+ letter word.
If I strip the character style out of the footnote reference, and even the footnote style from the footnote itself, it still hangs on me when I change the text to prevent the across-column hyphenation.
The frustrating thing is that ID performs what I want it to do as long as the document does not have footnotes. Somehow, a document with footnotes at the bottom of each text box make it hang when trying to negotiate the hyphenation commands. So it must be related to ID inserting the FN numbers into the text block and how they "interfere" with line spacing and hyphenation?
I normally have a thin-space prefix to the footnote reference, but turning that off does not resolve the issue. -
12. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(chumley) Mar 11, 2008 4:16 PM (in response to (chumley))Ok, one more test, which seems to isolate it a bit more.
By removing all but a couple of footnotes from the document, the problem does not recur.
However, when a hyphenated word appears on a page with a footnote on the bottom, if I close up the text box to the point where the hyphen will break the column, it hangs right there.
However if i do exactly the same thing on a page where there is no footnote, the line will automatically adjust, eliminating the broken word, usually resulting in a "highlighted" line (if you have the "show H&J violations" preference turned on) indicating that the H&J rules have been broken.
So, I know that ID can handle the conflicting instructions between hyphenation and line spacing rules, but for some reason, it can't do it when there's a footnote at the bottom of the same page. -
13. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
Harbs. Mar 11, 2008 11:39 PM (in response to (chumley))Chumley,
Make sure to report all of this in an official bug report. That's the
only way we'll get it fixed...
Harbs -
14. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
(Dave_Saunders) Mar 12, 2008 1:42 AM (in response to (chumley))I've reported the problems I encountered and provided an illustrative document, but I was a bit vague about the specifics of what caused the problem -- shortage of time as I was about to go to England, from where I'm posting this.
Dave -
15. Re: IDCS3 Crash when "Hyphenate Across Column" is NOT checked
lydia Pack777 Jul 10, 2008 6:24 PM (in response to (chumley))Hi, we're having the same issues with a number of our documents. They are 300 page (split into books) lawyers reports that have around 1000 footnotes each. I would be keen to know when this issues gets resolved by Adobe.
Cheers
Lydia


