31 Replies Latest reply: Jul 25, 2006 6:46 AM by (Phos±four_dots) RSS

    Emma's Pricing Thread

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        • 1. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
          Community Member
          Pricing
          Emma d'Anise - 09:59am Jan 27, 2003 Pacific

          I don't know if this is even a socially acceptable thing to ask, but I'm going to anyway, out of desperation. Those of you who know me know I'm soon to be without a reliable income and I'm trying to figure my way into the ins and outs of fulltime freelancing. So any advise would be endlessly appreciated.

          I know the average rate for an experienced graphic designer is around $70/hour. But I'd like to know, in general, the average amount you guys charge for logos specifically. I'm sure there is quite a range for this too, but I'm just curious if you have a general amount you charge for this. I find it difficult to estimate a cost for this so I feel like I'm constantly underselling myself with logos. If I charge an hourly rate, it's difficult for me to be able to estimate how long a logo will take. A large percentage of the time it takes me to design a logo is in brainstorming, sketching, and toying with ideas. The actual production takes less time. I've been charging a $200-$500 flat rate but still I feel that is less than logos probably usually go for and, really, that doesn't cover the hours I put into them.

          Do any of you have some friendly words of wisdom for a scared-to-death beginning freelancer?

          ~Em

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          Emma d'Anise - 10:06am Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#1 of 113)

          I would like to add, for any of you reading this that don't know me, I'm not a beginner in the sense of being a designer, I've just worked for a state office for seven years that pays me a salary. So I'm not all that familiar with how to charge in the outside world.

          ~Em again

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          Lindas Graphics - 10:11am Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#2 of 113)

          Hi Em. I charge anywhere from $350 - $500 for a logo. I'm working on one now that started out to be $400. The logo I completed was just what the client wanted . . . until I let her borrow my corporate logo idea books for graphic designers. She then changed gears and requested a different look. I'm charging her an additional $300 for the redesign and she seems happy with that.

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          Emma d'Anise - 10:54am Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#3 of 113)

          Ok, so then I'm about on the mark there. And that is a flat rate? How many ideas do you provide them? I generally give them a sheet of five to ten design ideas (after pages and pages of sketching on my part) and have them pick the one or ones they'd like me to develop further. But then, like you said, I've had clients pick one design and I'll work with that and submit the next rough and then they decide to go with one of the other ideas or they have an entirely new concept. I feel bad saying "ok, well I've already spent ten hours on this design you originally picked, now you'll have to pay more because you decided to go with another." But is that what you all do? Or do you just figure that as part of the orginal estimate?

          ~Em

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          graffiti - 11:08am Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#4 of 113)

          I would think that if you work on a design that they "picked" for 10 hours and then they change their mind, it's a new ball game.

          If you tell them that, more than likely they'll decide that the first design is better than they originally thought.

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          Emma d'Anise - 11:21am Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#5 of 113)

          Perhaps I should start adding addendums (ok, I know that's not how you really pluralize that, right?) to the project contract when the client decides on a design so that other designs will require additional negotiation. Hm...

          ~Em

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          Margaret McDowell - 11:24am Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#6 of 113)

          addendi? Looks funny.

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          bonniej - 11:51am Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#7 of 113)

          When a client shifts gears after i put in hours on a project.. I polietly tell them what the bill is so far & that to continue on this new path will add to their bill by X amount.

          If you are upfront with them then there are no surprizes when the final bill is presented.

          I also try to get 1/3 up front.. 1/3 half way thru & the final payment when the work is delivered.

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          Emma d'Anise - 12:05pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#8 of 113)

          Ooh, good tip, Bonnie! Maybe that's the way I should go. I do 1/2 up front and 1/2 on submission of the final piece, but three payments might be better for both the client and myself. A lot of it is that it takes confidence and nerve to tell the client that they will have to pay more. I'm always scared enough as it is to state any initial fee. I guess it's something I will learn as I grow in this business. It's funny, for years I've done design work but now that I'm having my safety net pulled out from under me I feel brand new again.

          Thank you guys so much for your input. I feel bad asking for help but I really do feel like I'm about to have a nervous breakdown over this. Your advise is appreciated probably more than any of you will ever know.

          ~Em

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          Lawrence Hudetz - 12:34pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#9 of 113)

          Remember also,Em, that the price of a logo relates to the size, or likely size, of a firm's business. $500 for a new Nike logo would be way to low.

          A sucessful designer here went a unique way. He Charged an minimal upfront fee for the work, then asked for a piece of the business, like stock, in lieu of a large upfront fee. Another way is to offset the cost upfront by asking to be paid in segments, with a dollar cutoff point agreed to in advance.

          Logos have a lot of power in a company's look, and should be paid commensurate to the usefulness. In my opinion, of course.

          Put "logo design" in Google. Several established design groups will appear wirh their design/[ayment policies stated.

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          • 2. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
            Community Member
            Lindas Graphics - 01:51pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#10 of 113) Edited: 27-Jan-2003 at 01:56pm PST

            << How many ideas do you provide them? >> Probably anywhere from 6 - 12 ideas, depending on how many of my rough drafts I feel are closest to the mark. If I provide 6 and the client is not happy with any I will try to get more feedback on what they want and produce more ideas. I do try to be as fair as I can but only to a point. It gets easier to charge with experience. Do what you are comfortable with now and you will gain the necessary confidence provided the work keeps coming your way.

            My motto is: If I err, I'd rather err on the side of generosity and fairness.

            By the way, I've been where you are and felt like you feel Em. I've received lots of encouragement from the Photoshop forum and owe a debt of gratitude to all who helped me get past my initial fears. Up until a year ago I always had others who did the marketing for me. I was a subcontractor and then an employee for a while. Once I was out on my own I had to learn the hard way. I trust I'm still learning and growing into a better business person.

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            bonniej - 01:56pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#11 of 113)

            Nice point Linda... just keep in mind that some clients will take advantage of "generosity & fairness" and run you ragged & get you frazzled.. know where to draw the line.

            Some think that what we do is just a matter of pushing a few buttons in the right program & poof instant logo..instant changes.

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            Lindas Graphics - 01:59pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#12 of 113) Edited: 27-Jan-2003 at 01:59pm PST

            You're right Bonnie. I'm getting better at detecting the ones who take too much and I've even been able to politely turn some away.

            Just for the record, Bonnie has been my #1 mentor in business matters. We are lucky to have her here.

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            Robert Blackwell - 02:02pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#13 of 113)

            "A lot of it is that it takes confidence and nerve to tell the client that they will have to pay more."

            I know what your saying, it's like fighting with your conscience. Good vs Bad. In this case, I consider the lack of confidence and nerve the bad. Don't cheat yourself of what you deserve or are due.

            Overcome evil with good

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            Margaret McDowell - 02:09pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#14 of 113)

            Em, why are you embarrased to ask this? This is the best place to ask on this subject!

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            emencz - 02:10pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#15 of 113) Edited: 27-Jan-2003 at 02:11pm PST

            Emma, I'm in the boat with you. The only difference is the experience. While you definitely know your cookies, I'm a real newbie. I freelance around the neighborhood and whatever little I charge, I always feel I'm overcharging.

            How's this: Could you just change the hours & phone# and e-mail it to...
            How much do you pros charge for something like that?

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            emencz - 02:10pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#16 of 113) Edited: 27-Jan-2003 at 02:10pm PST

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            bonniej - 02:31pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#17 of 113)

            I have a set hourly rate & I bill in increments of 15 minutes (never less than that).

            A name & tele change requires me to change it.. print it out.. fax the proof to the client.. who approves it, signs it & faxes it back.. then i flightcheck the file..zip or stuff it.. email it out.. than fax a hard copy of it to where it was emailed so that when they open the file they know that it is correct.

            So how ever long all that takes is what i charge... and yes I bill 22 minutes as half an hour.. always round up my time.. never down.

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            Robert Blackwell - 02:36pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#18 of 113) Edited: 27-Jan-2003 at 02:37pm PST

            Margaret, from my expereince, asking people what to charge is the most anal subject there is. Half the time people flame you, never giving you a solid answer or just linking you to somewhere that gives a guideline of what to charge for what etc. And even those links aren't very helpful.

            emencz. in a contract, I would state that minor adjustments can be made for a a flat fee of like 25 bucks or so depending on the difficulty. So for like, address/phone number changes or even changing the color, that's what I would do. However, if Nike wanted me to change their logo from red to blue, it would be a couple thousand green ones

            [edit]Although, what Bonnie suggested is really good too. I would probably go that route.

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            Emma d'Anise - 02:47pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#19 of 113)

            I need to get that book, something about "Guidelines for the Graphic Designer" or something like that. I have the name printed out somewhere

            I've never thought about charging per 15 minutes. I've been submitting things, they'll make changes, I do the work, send it back, etc, etc, without charging an extra dime. Maybe I should stop that.

            Sorry about that if I seemed cocky. I meant that it doesn't feel like I charge enough because I always underestimate the amount of time it will take me. I do it on purpose because I lack the ability to say "wow, you're looking at $1K." So I always mark it down a bit.

            I know this is a good place to ask; you people are brilliant! But I find some professionals don't want to expose their business practices like pricing and hourly charges, etc. I'm always surprised how friendly and helpful the people are here. It kills me when a newcomer posts something about us being unhelpful and rude.

            ~Em

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            Margaret McDowell - 02:56pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#20 of 113)

            Yes, Robert, but that didn't happen here. Besides, we are all rooting for Em, so why would we dream about flaming her? That's why I consider this Lounge a safe place to post questions such as this.

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            Robert Blackwell - 02:56pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#21 of 113)

            Yes, it kills all of us

            I still have the topic started by outraged saved to my computer! hehehehehe, it's always a good read.

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            Lindas Graphics - 03:04pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#22 of 113)

            That's not like you Robert. Having a bad day? Maybe it would be good for you to go back and read this thread again.

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            Margaret McDowell - 03:08pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#23 of 113)

            On the other hand, if some stranger named Lord_Thunderpants (f'rinstance) popped in here and typed in caps and yelled for answers, well the flames would be fair game!

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            Robert Blackwell - 03:13pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#24 of 113)

            What's not like me? I'm not following you, my day is going well and I got a new laptop this weekend, there's not much more I really want right now. Please, point out my what nots.

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            • 3. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
              Community Member
              Margaret McDowell - 03:16pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#25 of 113)

              Please, point out my what nots.
              I could say something sooooo0 cute right now, but I am a nice girrrrrl. So sorry, I am being terrible. :D

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              Robert Blackwell - 03:38pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#26 of 113)

              rolling fingers...still waiting to be corrected. :o|

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              emencz - 03:40pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#27 of 113)

              But I find some professionals don't want to expose their business practices like pricing and hourly charges, etc. I'm always surprised how friendly and helpful the people are here.
              I think it's because we're not really in competition with each other. Now, if Emma had lived down the block... that would be another matter. 'Tis just my analysis of the situation.

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              bonniej - 03:50pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#28 of 113)

              Don't mind discussing my business practices at al.. I thought that is what we were doing.

              As for hourly rate.. Emma needs to come up with that herself. No one can tell her what to charge & even if we all did tell her what we charge it would mean nothing.. because we are all over the world & price varies from region to region. Even here in NJ you can have different fees depending on how close to NY or to Phila you are.

              An hourly rate depends on you overhead.. how much you think you are worth.. how much people are willing to pay.. and what the guy down the road charges (and if he is better or worse than you).

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              Lindas Graphics - 03:52pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#29 of 113)

              Sorry Robert. I'm downloading an update for DreamWeaver 6.1 -- which has me confused because I already downloaded a 6.1 update back in November. This one is supposedly newer but has the same number.

              Anyway, I was referring to what you said about not getting any help here but getting flamed. I felt that we've been pretty generous with advice.

              Emencz: I don't have a problem giving advice locally either. There's plenty of work to go around. I have helped other local designers any way they have needed help. I've even helped a local client learn to do some of what I do for him so he could save money. He still gives me other work. I like sharing with others.

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              Emma d'Anise - 03:55pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#30 of 113)

              Margaret,

              That's what I like about the Lounge too. It feels like a safe place to ask the slightly OT or totally OT questions where people will help you on a more real and human level and that includes flaming of the ingrates. It seems like a "regulars" side to the main forums. I also like that it includes both the Maccers and the Win folk. Often they come together here on issues, regardless of platform (except the occassional "my platform kicks your platform's butt" discussions).

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              dave milbut - 03:58pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#31 of 113)

              I like sharing with others.
              A common thread running through most of us regulars here, methinks.

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              Robert Blackwell - 03:59pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#32 of 113)

              Well, I wasn't actually talking about this forum...but this topic in general is very sensitive and when I first asked for advice and stuff I was pretty much given the cold shoulder. So I was just telling Margaret why Em might have not felt comfortable asking for this type of advice

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              Lindas Graphics - 04:06pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#33 of 113)

              Oh, sorry Robert. I missed that thead. I know what you mean though as I've seen some of it. I'm kind of in and out of here, based on my workload. I miss a lot of what goes on. Hey, I would have helped you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

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              bonniej - 04:35pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#34 of 113)

              Missed that one as well Robert...

              Sorry you didn't receive any helpful esponses... perhaps you could ask your questions here in this thread... it may help you as well as Emma.

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              Emma d'Anise - 04:39pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#35 of 113)

              Yeah, Robert. Go right ahead! When did you get flamed for this sort of question? On here?? I'm surprised.

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              Lawrence Hudetz - 06:46pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#36 of 113) Edited: 27-Jan-2003 at 06:46pm PST

              When I started in photography some time ago, I asked a designer How to think about setting rates. His response was like this:
              First you decide what a good annual salary would be, taking into account things like "i'm just starting"
              Divide that number by 2000. That's the starting hourly rate. Now, (at least for photographers) multiply by 3, for you don't actually get to bill every hour in a year, then multiply by a factor which takes into consideration your overhead. 1.8 to 2.2 works.

              Some modification for designers probably is called for because designers do get to bill more hours than photographers.

              He was one of Portland's most successful designers, as well as a photographer.

              Incidentally, be wary of undercharging. When I introduced stock into by business, I looked at the field and set a price I thought would work. That same fellow called me one day and said "Larry, why are you charging so little? So, I doubled my rate. Almost immediately, my sales volume doubled!

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              Margaret McDowell - 07:00pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#37 of 113)

              People like to think that they're getting what they pay for, I guess. It's the same selling art. If it's too cheap. folks think it's no good. Me-If I can get a deal and I love to see it in my hoiuse everyday-go for it! (In terms of tangible Art, that is)

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              Robert Blackwell - 07:03pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#38 of 113) Edited: 27-Jan-2003 at 07:03pm PST

              Thanks but I'm okay now.

              You can have a look at my new rig though
              1
              2

              Photoshop takes only 5 seconds to load. The keys are a blue and transparent but there is no underlying led or anything.

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              Margaret McDowell - 07:05pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#39 of 113)

              Verrrrry prrrrrretty! (She purrrrrred)

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              dave milbut - 07:09pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#40 of 113)

              First you decide what a good annual salary would be, taking into account things like "i'm just starting" ... etc...
              That's a great idea Larry! Thanks for sharing that.

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              Tina Hayes - 09:48pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#41 of 113)

              Photoshop takes only 5 seconds to load.<
              Snort I'm jealous.

              I agree with the location statement. I'm in CT where the per capita income is pretty high. But I've given some quotes to people in more 'rural' areas of the country, and had them say...'well...my budget is 150
              • 4. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                Community Member
                Robert Blackwell - 09:52pm Jan 27, 2003 Pacific (#42 of 113) Edited: 27-Jan-2003 at 10:01pm PST

                Thanks, I think I got a good deal, 1500 (plus tax) a similarly configed dell would have been around 2300
                2.4Ghz
                512 Ram
                40GB HD
                15" display
                32 MB GeForce 4
                DVD/CD-RW
                Integrated 56k/NIC
                I had to buy the wireless card separately

                What REALLY sold me though was the 0% interest for a whole year.
                These touchpads are actually pretty cool...the only thing that is annoying is when I type, sometimes my palm touches the pad and moves the cursor away so I either select another window and stop typing or I start typing in another part of the sentance heheheh

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                bonniej - 05:13am Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#43 of 113)

                Robert--

                On my Ti Powerbook there is a button in the trackpad contol that you an tell it to disable the trackpad while typing.. maybe your has something similar??

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                Dirck Van Lieu - 07:34am Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#44 of 113)

                Now there's a feature I would like!

                A Mac in my future?

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                Robert Blackwell - 08:19am Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#45 of 113)

                There is a feature that says disable "taps" while typing but maybe I checked the wrong one.

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                Tim Lookingbill - 09:09am Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#46 of 113)

                Emma:

                Make sure your invoices to your clients include a usage rights section as a form of copyright protection for yourself. You can't sign your name on a logo. I did a spot illustration used in a poster layout for a client once and they later lifted elements of the design and used it as their logo without any additional payment. You can be as specific as you want in this section and it becomes a binding contract once payment is made without any additional paperwork required.

                Pricing? I once asked an illustrator friend the same question years ago and his reply was to call up an equal competitor and pose as a client and see what he charged. If you base your pricing locally you may have to adjust if your client is located in another city as might happen with jobs acquired over the web.

                A very respected industry standard book called The Graphic Artist's Guild Pricing and Ethical Guidelines manual can be used to show your clients that you are legit and professional, much like an auto dealers repair manual reference guide. When you see the pricing structures in the GAG guide you will see how conservative you really are and so will your client.

                Here's the link to their site:

                http://www.gag.org/pegs/

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                cydonia - 10:31am Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#47 of 113) Edited: 28-Jan-2003 at 10:33am PST

                I've tried to find salary prices for my area, I called my college and they referred me to websites and even Aquent (!) They've been pretty good, still helping me out a few years after graduation, but I was shocked they couldn't tell me a good hourly rate for design, in a very populated area (Orange County, CA ).

                I know I'm getting jilted here at my current job, bad benefits, bad boss, lots of expectations of "elegence" (which i hope I'm satisfying). I'm laying out two magazines full time, I've been doing it for a year now. I have about 4 solid years of design experience behind me. What is my hourly rate? I can't find out.

                I've noticed in this thread a somewhat positve view of the market for design right now, is that the way you guys (and non-guys ) feel? The message from my school and placement agencies is "if you have a job, keep it."

                But I can't stand being taken advantage of much longer, I've got a nice portfolio out of it, but I have bills to pay. No raises yet. My boss knows now that I'm feeling under-appreciated, and has promised me a raise but we'll see.

                Was that a ramble? Sorry! What should I ask for when I look for a new job? Any ideas? Thanks.

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                bonniej - 10:37am Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#48 of 113)

                cydonia..

                The best time to look for a new job is when you already have a job. That way you can take your time & be picky about where you land next.

                If you are unhappy.. start putting out resumes.

                Aquent is a good place to start. If you are a member of AGIA or GAG they have job listings that you can search (need to be a member though).

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                Cathy Clapper - 11:05am Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#49 of 113)

                Cydonia
                I live in Riverside County. I would charge $50 per hour for freelance work, but I should think orange county could handle $75 per hour.

                And heres something that makes me sick. I was self-employed from 1977 to 1982. I charged $75 per hour back then in LA.

                The bad part of the apple/desktop computer industry is that everyone that buys one calls themselves a designer, and it has TOTALLY ruined the pricing structure for graphic design work, as compared to 20 years ago!

                (pouting)
                Cathy

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                cydonia - 11:08am Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#50 of 113)

                Thanks for the advice!

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                Tim Lookingbill - 11:13am Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#51 of 113)

                cydonia:

                Expect a rise in advertising spending when the economy starts to tank. That's the usual belief the business industry takes. I'm just curious if others here have experienced this. I could never tell.

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                Phosphor - 01:15pm Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#52 of 113) Edited: 28-Jan-2003 at 01:15pm PST

                Hey Em...

                Here's something I use...well, in edited form, anyway. It's a standard contract from the A.I.G.A. .

                A.I.G.A. Standard Design Contract PDF

                On my version I changed a few things, plus I added my "Phosphor Digital Design" logo and contact information. It's 12 pages, and it really spells things out. Just READING this contract when I first got it enightened me immensely.

                Cheers, and best of luck to you. It's a tough road, and I STILL scan the classifieds every day looking for that "perfect" job...but there's nuthin' like workin' in yer jammies!!!



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                DS Nelson - 02:31pm Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#53 of 113)

                It feels like a safe place to ask the slightly OT or totally OT questions
                Just outta curiosity, what IS considered on topic or off topic around here? I still haven't figured that out!

                Dan

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                Margaret McDowell - 03:10pm Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#54 of 113)

                Dan, I don't have that figured that out either! Just conversations segueing one into the other.

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                DS Nelson - 03:49pm Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#55 of 113)

                Just conversations segueing one into the other.
                Sorta like real-life, face to face conversations. Imagine that!

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                Lindas Graphics - 04:16pm Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#56 of 113) Edited: 28-Jan-2003 at 04:41pm PST

                [Nevermind]

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                • 5. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                  Community Member
                  Robert Blackwell - 05:56pm Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#57 of 113)

                  Bonnie, thanks for the tip again on the touch pad "tap" feature...I guess I must have forgotten to hit apply or something.

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                  bonniej - 06:35pm Jan 28, 2003 Pacific (#58 of 113)

                  No problem Robert... that drove me nuts for about a week until I found it.

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                  Zeb - 01:31am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#59 of 113)

                  If you don't have the software option:
                  Place a business card above the touch pad and sticky tape the top edge of it. Toggle it over when you need to mask/ unmask the touch pad.

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                  Dirck Van Lieu - 07:08am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#60 of 113)

                  I occasionally use Instant Messenger on my laptop and have sent some bizarro sentences to people when I hit send without seeing what the touchpad had done to them. Cements my reputation.

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                  dave milbut - 07:36am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#61 of 113)

                  Place a business card above the touch pad and sticky tape the top edge of it. Toggle it over when you need to mask/ unmask the touch pad.
                  I had (on my last system) the reset button in an unfortunate spot on my system... right at foot /height if I'm sitting w/my feet up (almost always). I wound up using masking tape to hold a large bottle cap (from some twisted tea or wine cooler type crud) over that button so I wasn't always resetting the system when getting up or sitting down. You gotta do what you gotta do. Adapt and overcome!

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                  Lindas Graphics - 08:22am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#62 of 113)

                  Okay, now it's time for more pricing advice, yes?

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                  Emma d'Anise - 08:24am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#63 of 113)

                  Thank you all so much! That was the book I was talking about. I'll order that as soon as I have some money in the bank (ha!) and I printed out that contract pdf, Phosphor. It looks very informative, thank you! I still have to trot myself down to the small business office tomorrow but I'm diligently creating my invoices, contracts, and deciding my pricing. I never thought about contacting another GD in town and posing as a client. Seems kind of mean, though. If they're anything like me they so desperately need those phone calls that one fake one could be painful.

                  Anyway, I have a lot of studying and work to do. Thank you all again for all of your help. You're such a great group of people!

                  ~Em

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                  Margaret McDowell - 08:30am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#64 of 113)

                  Em, can you get it at the library?

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                  graffiti - 08:36am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#65 of 113) Edited: 29-Jan-2003 at 08:36am PST

                  Now I'm paranoid that you're all going to call me asking for pricing.

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                  Emma d'Anise - 08:40am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#66 of 113) Edited: 29-Jan-2003 at 08:40am PST

                  LOL. The next ring will be me. You'll know it's me by my code words: "red-eye removal."

                  Margaret,

                  Probably, but this is an investment that's important to make. Even if I am at the end of my financial rope. Any of you ever eaten Ramen noodles for weeks on end? I'm so sick of the stuff I've just stopped eating altogether.

                  ~Em

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                  Zeb - 08:45am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#67 of 113)

                  ~Em, reality check;
                  If you've been employed for a long time it's really difficult to adjust to being self employed, I know.

                  http://www.score-manchester.org/bus_test.htm

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                  dave milbut - 08:49am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#68 of 113) Edited: 29-Jan-2003 at 08:49am PST

                  Any of you ever eaten Ramen noodles for weeks on end?
                  1 pot of gravy will make spaghetti for about a week and a half, it also freezes real well! One box of spaghetti will last about 2 or 3 days (1 lb.) family of 4!

                  Edit: the best part is, one night spaghetti, next riggatoni, then ziti, shells, spaghetti, etc....

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                  Margaret McDowell - 09:01am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#69 of 113) Edited: 29-Jan-2003 at 09:02am PST

                  Sorry Em, what I meant was that maybe getting it at the library would hold you until you saved up for it.

                  I agree with Dave, some tomato sauce, herbs and some onions, freeze them in single meal packs, etc.

                  Edit: great gravy recipe, dave!

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                  Emma d'Anise - 09:21am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#70 of 113)

                  Zeb,

                  I understand that. I think I have a lot of traits that would work well being self employed, but also I know that I'm very much new to the idea. I also know I probably have a few bad traits for this. Like I've said, I will most likely get a part-time job somewhere and try to start up my business and build up my client base on the side. This is just something I've wanted to do my entire life and I feel like losing this job might be the boot in the bum I need to get going with it. Maybe I'm right or maybe I'll be a cocktail waitress the rest of my life. I guess time will tell.

                  ~Em

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                  dave milbut - 09:25am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#71 of 113)

                  great gravy recipe
                  Thanks! It's my grammie's. God rest her! You can also add veal chops or steak to the initial "meating" of the gravy, but that makes it a little more expensive! I've been adding a couple of small steaks lately. Mmmmm....

                  Or you can make it w/o the meat at all... but then it's sauce not gravy!

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                  bonniej - 10:06am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#72 of 113)

                  Emma--

                  Take a look at Aquent.com

                  They take on freelancers & place them in openings.. most of the time it is temp work.. sometimes it leads to permenant postions.. best of all it is a new environment every day or every week.. can't get bored.

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                  Lindas Graphics - 10:21am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#73 of 113) Edited: 29-Jan-2003 at 10:21am PST

                  Another option if you get bored with Ramen Noodles is to try a baked potato loaded with cottage cheese . . . and if you can really splurge, add salsa. It's filling, low fat and good for ya!

                  [Whoops, back to pricing]

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                  Emma d'Anise - 10:21am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#74 of 113)

                  I've looked at their site before. I didn't think of it recently, though, as a means of finding jobs. Thank you for reminding me!

                  (This site, by the way, is one that has flash I don't mind, if my memory serves. I remember it being a very minimal "loading" animation that wasn't at all what flash usually is. Sorry, just had to tie this thread in with a few of the other recent ones.)

                  ~Em

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                  Emma d'Anise
                  • 6. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                    Community Member
                    Emma d'Anise - 10:24am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#75 of 113)

                    I never thought to add cottage cheese to a baked potatoe. I'll have to try that. Hm... I'm vegetarian and eat pretty much low fat so there are a lot of things out there I can find. It's just that I'm beyond my last paycheck now and all that's left is rice and Ramen. Yuck! And I think I could write a book about the thousands of ways to cook Ramen! I could call it, "Sorta Good Eatin' for under 40¢," LOL!

                    ~Em

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                    Lindas Graphics - 10:32am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#76 of 113)

                    Because I'm adventurous with food I decided to try something different today. I toasted my favorite whole grain bread, then spread it with chunky peanut butter and salsa. It's WOWLICIOUS!

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                    Michael Kneal - 11:03am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#77 of 113) Edited: 29-Jan-2003 at 11:04am PST

                    Emma:
                    I'm with Bonniej. Charge hourly and don't work flat rate if you can help it. Shifting the discussion with a potential customer from flat rate to hourly rate is easy when you point out that they pay their full time employees hourly ( or a salary that works out to an hourly rate) and that they don't particularly measure how long it takes them to do a job. If you are a good designer (and YOU are!), start with $100.00 per hour and give them a rough (but not binding) estimate of how long the job will take.

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                    Margaret McDowell - 11:25am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#78 of 113)

                    And Bonnie's idea of signing up with a temp service is a good idea! That helped me through a couple of 'Top Ramen' times in my past.

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                    Tim Lookingbill - 11:28am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#79 of 113)

                    Emma:

                    I hope you don't give up and settle for waitressing that quickly. Don't give up eating, either. Give up Ramen noodle, it's very unhealthy. The noodles are loaded with hydrogenated fat. Use the flavor packets in oriental stir fry's with fresh vegies and meats.

                    I don't want to turn this into a recipe thread but I have to share this one discovery to preparing oatmeal that's out of this world compared to the traditional recipe on the box.

                    Pan toasted steamed whole oatmeal: In a skillet add 1 cup of whole oatmeal (not quick oats) and toast to a golden brown over high enough heat to not quickly burn. Constantly toss oats with a spatula to scorch toast without burning. Some crumbs will burn. The aroma is unbelievable. When toasted add 1 cup of water, cover and quickly lower heat to steam simmer till very little water is present. Remove from heat. Add any favorite topping: milk, margarine, brown sugar, syrups, cinnamon and/or vanilla.

                    You will never prepare oats the old pasty slop way after you've tried this. A cheap, simple, low fat meal.

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                    Dirck Van Lieu - 11:30am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#80 of 113)

                    The flavor packets are mostly salt.

                    But this is about getting fed more than it is about optimum health!

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                    Emma d'Anise - 11:31am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#81 of 113) Edited: 29-Jan-2003 at 11:32am PST

                    Michael,

                    So you give them the original estimate of time plus the hourly charge and then advise them when hours need to be added to the estimate? $100/hr? That seems really steep; I thought the going rate for the Valley was around $70. Do you think I'm good enough to charge $100, Michael? On my recent jobs I charge $50/hr. Was I underselling?

                    I will look into a temp service if I can't find a clerical PT job. I'm confidant I can find one, though, because I have years of clerical experience under my belt and I am very professional and a good interviewee. I'm also looking into a few contracting agencies that manage a few of our contract-workers here for the state. I don't know how likely it is that they're looking for a designer, but that would be ideal.

                    Through talking with you guys it seems I have a lot of options, really. I should think about that every time the "oh my God I'm going to lose my job" jitters and "how in the heck am I going to pay my bills" depressions start.

                    Thanks again,
                    ~Em

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                    Tim Lookingbill - 11:46am Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#82 of 113)

                    Emma:

                    Hang in there. It's never as bad as it seems. Getting yourself known to your community in any way possible should get you good results.

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                    bonniej - 02:01pm Jan 29, 2003 Pacific (#83 of 113)

                    I know my hourly rate that I charge.. but I rarly tell this rate to the customer at the get go... I normally give them an estimate of what the total job will cost.

                    I know what my rate is... I know approx how many hours it will take me so I give them an estimate that includes one set of edit/revisions

                    If they start going into more revisions/edits after the first one then I tell them that they will be charged hourly & that fee is $xxx (then this is where & when I tell them the hourly rate) at this point it helps keep down unnessessary edits (or the dreaded design by commettee revisions)

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                    Wild Bill - 10:40am Feb 5, 2003 Pacific (#84 of 113)

                    Freelancing? I have mixed feelings on the subject. I was a freelance writer for many years, for many, many publications. I was successful at it. And VERY unhappy. I don't suggest you will be unhappy freelancing, but be prepared. It's THE hardest way to make money, bar none. It can be an extremely lonely way to make money. Some months, the highlight of the entire week was going grocery shopping. With phone, fax, email, it's easy to become isolated in a hurry.

                    One other thing, and I'm going to be provocative here, just to see if others will share: freelancing TENDS not to be a long-term profession for MOST (BUT NOT ALL) folks, for the reasons listed previously. I'll bet less than 1 in 100 people who freelance stay in it longer than 15 years, and a far less number make it through their working careers.

                    Most people find that either starting a store-front business, or working for a small, personable company that shares your ideals can be just as satisfying.

                    One other thing. A key to freelancing is: avoid debt and have a simple way of living.

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                    P. Boone - 07:48pm Feb 5, 2003 Pacific (#85 of 113)

                    Yep. Everything you've said is correct. I've been a freelance portrait painter for about 30 years, with a couple of periods of 'employment' many years ago. The lonliness can be unbearable, but one can't work when anyone else is around, doing what I do. When my son was small, I stayed awake and painted all night.

                    "One other thing. A key to freelancing is: avoid debt and have a simple way of living."
                    I think that's a key element. It also helps to not be a one income family. That can make an enormous difference. Dry spells can sometimes seem to last forever.

                    Paz

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                    Tim Lookingbill - 08:15pm Feb 5, 2003 Pacific (#86 of 113)

                    I agree with both of you. And turning off that damn TV.

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                    • 7. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                      Community Member
                      Lindas Graphics - 02:08pm Feb 6, 2003 Pacific (#87 of 113)

                      Words of wisdom Tim.

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                      Steve Vesperman - 02:16pm Feb 6, 2003 Pacific (#88 of 113)

                      All too true, fellow feeelancers. But I love it.

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                      bonniej - 04:28pm Feb 6, 2003 Pacific (#89 of 113)

                      And let the answering machine pick up the calls..

                      if it is a client you can call them back in a short while.

                      If it is a friend... wait until the work is done to call them back.

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                      Robert Blackwell - 10:06am Feb 17, 2003 Pacific (#90 of 113)

                      just keeping the thread a live.

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                      Lindas Graphics - 11:10am Feb 17, 2003 Pacific (#91 of 113)

                      Good for you Robert. We need more threads like this one in the lounge. I would rather think of the lounge as a taking-a-coffee-break-place rather than a place for disfunctionals to brag about how much they can drink, etc. and then tear down our country. The good thing is it keeps some of the nonsense out of the main forums. The bad thing is anything is that anything OT, even if it's of a professional, related nature, gets sent here -- where it usually gets trashed. Still, I'm in favor of supporting the worthwhile threads here as there are still many in this forum that I respect and enjoy interacting with...as well as learning that still does take place.

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                      YrbkMgr - 03:01pm Feb 17, 2003 Pacific (#92 of 113)

                      Well I just read through all 91 posts and have my own two cents to add. This comes from more of a philosophical standpoint, but may be worth of consideration. For the sake of brevity, I won't go into all of the sublties of possibilities, but I will qualify my position in what follows with this: I have been in sales and marketing for some of this countries top companies, I have taught professional salesmen how to sell (formal classes), and have a passion for the sales process.

                      That's a long winded way to say, I like to think that I know a bit about needs satisfaction selling - although, like a sushi chef, it takes a lifetime to master.

                      Emma,

                      Pricing hourly or flat fee is often dependant on a lot of factors: the company (Nike), the market, how much time you actually have.

                      When I started a consulting business years ago, everyone in the market charged hourly - from $75/hour to $200 per hour. Our strategy was to compete with them and make it really difficult for the client to compare apples to apples.

                      We chose to go flat fee for everything, and the way we sold it was based on this. If you hire a stupid plumber, and it takes him longer to find and fix the problem you pay him more. If you hire an idiot programmer who can't solve your problem right away, you pay him more. Does this make sense to you?

                      We structured all projects with DEFINED end points. This takes a lot of effort and conversation with the client. I believe however, that setting expectations up front protects you the best. We spent a lot of time in asking questions to the client. Don't ever forget: People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care.

                      By asking questions, confirming processes, etc., you and the client engage in a way that demonstrates your prowess, and confers a great deal of confidence for them.

                      Emma, don't EVER sell yourself short. What is easy for you is not easy for someone else. That's why you pay so much money for a home - you could build one yourself much cheaper if you knew how.

                      That is to say, think about the project. Is it tough or easy? Will you have to spend a great deal of time going back and forth with the client? Build that into your price. It's worth every penny.

                      If you are afraid they will feel gouged - STOP IT! Just don't gouge them, and justify your efforts. Not with hours - they could easily hire someone else for a cheap rate. They can also drive a Yugo as well, but they don't do they?

                      Another caveat of pricing by the hour, is that you limit yourself to the amount of money you can make. You only have 24 hours in a day and even if you could work all of them, you would still hit a cap.

                      Sell your expertise. A lot of design folks don't really like the selling process since they want to get right to what they do best: designing. Resist the temptation to shy away from conversation about the "what if's" of the project: I will charge you $500 to create your logo. But here's your obligation - you will assign a project champion, the logo will be completed in 3 weeks, and you will have three concept proofs. If we go beyond three, we will have to charge you $250 for the next set of three proofs.

                      The point of the above paragraph is to suggest that you MUST get client buy in. They have to work with you, and if they go over their agreed upon endpoint, it will cost them money.

                      So many times I've seen people take on business for the cash, but in the end it isn't worth it. Charge enough so that you will provide every client with your absolute best work at every stage of the game.

                      Ever get a job that looked good but after they started trying to cheat you or had "this little extra" to add on, that the job became not worth it at some level? Make sure that doesn't happen.

                      If you charge too little, you are under selling yourself period. But there are compelling reasons to do it - like starting out. But if you DO charge on the low end, don't do it to be competative. Do it with the intention of asking the client for more business if they use your work.

                      Something like: Logos in this arena cost between $600 and $750 - for good ones. I will charge you $500 for this job if you folks are willing to provide another job within the next couple of months - provided of course, that you like my work.

                      All of the above is a bit of free association to inspire you to think more creatively about selling yourself, little more.

                      I hope it helps some.

                      Peace,
                      Tony

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                      Robert Blackwell - 03:19pm Feb 17, 2003 Pacific (#93 of 113)

                      It would be cool to archive some of the good threads here before they get expunged. This is one and it's getting close to the edge. Maybe I can copy these posts to a text file or put em in my dbase and then have it on my website.

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                      Lindas Graphics - 03:41pm Feb 17, 2003 Pacific (#94 of 113) Edited: 17-Feb-2003 at 03:43pm PST

                      Tony: That is a very well written and excellent piece of advice. Very nice of you!!!

                      Why is it getting close Robert? If we keep it active it should keep going, no? I sometimes copy and paste a thread into Word, delete the junk, and print the good stuff.

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                      dave milbut - 03:50pm Feb 17, 2003 Pacific (#95 of 113)

                      OOOO! A Lounge FAQ!!! or COOL THREAD folder. Only admin accessable. Only tangently ps, photg, business or design related posts need apply.

                      Tony, you are wise beyond your years my friend.

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                      • 8. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                        Community Member
                        John Levine - 09:09pm Feb 17, 2003 Pacific (#96 of 113) Edited: 17-Feb-2003 at 09:09pm PST <br /><br />I agree. Tony's advice is pretty much how I operated for 10 years freelancing, and it was good, alas... <br /><br />working for a small, personable company that shares your ideals can be just as satisfying. <br />I have found that to be true. After those 10 years of freelancing, 3 years ago I began to realize that I really hadn't thought about retirement, Medical insurance was killing me, and the whole "feast or famine" thing wasn't going to work for the rest of my career. I landed a full-time job, rather easily. at a small company where I actually like everbody (and they seem to like me!) with great benefits: Full retirement, Tax-deferred annuities, great medical coverage, etc. I have to say my life has gotten much calmer, but hey, I'm gonna be 40 this year, and this is just about where I saw myself being at 40 when I was 25 or so. Freelancing in your 20's and 30's can be a most valuable education, and I wouldn't trade those years for anything! Good luck, Emma!  <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Tim Lookingbill - 10:17pm Feb 17, 2003 Pacific (#97 of 113) <br /><br />To save threads in IE just hit ADD in Scrapbook after you hit "Show All Messages" in Adobe forum. <br /><br />BAM! You got it all! <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />YrbkMgr - 10:32pm Feb 17, 2003 Pacific (#98 of 113) Edited: 17-Feb-2003 at 10:33pm PST <br /><br />Thanks to all who found my commentary positive. I respect the folks here so it is especially meaningful for me <blush>. <br /><br />In regards to saving threads, since I have Acrobat, I usually capture the web pages in that and then I can search, index, etc.... fwiw. <br /><br />And John (Levine), <br /><br />I went the opposite route. Went through corporate America danced with kings, queens, lords, and ladies so-to-speak; I got fed up with mediocrity. I'm so tired of people avoiding doing what's right for the business, for the company, and for the customer for fear of upsetting someone's ego. <br /><br />" A committee is a creature with six or more legs and no brain" <br /><br />---Robert A. Heinlein <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Robert Blackwell - 09:23am Feb 18, 2003 Pacific (#99 of 113) Edited: 18-Feb-2003 at 09:25am PST <br /><br />Yeah, but will the scrap book actually save the thread when it gets bumped?? let's try..I'll add the last one in the list and then make a new thread to bump it. um...actually, I just tried but I'm not seeing a scrap book button...did you just mean to show all messages and then save out the entire web page for the thread? <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />John Levine - 09:56am Feb 18, 2003 Pacific (#100 of 113) Edited: 18-Feb-2003 at 09:57am PST <br /><br />I went the opposite route. Went through corporate America danced with kings, queens, lords, and ladies so-to-speak; I got fed up with mediocrity. I'm so tired of people avoiding doing what's right for the business, for the company, and for the customer for fear of upsetting someone's ego. <br />Ah, yes Tony. I got burned out in the corporate thing too! I worked for 5 years in Manhattan, and got fed up with it for all the reasons you cited. That's when I went to freelancing. I have been lucky to land in a company where I am pretty much left to my own devices. I sometimes get stuck in a "design by committee' situation, but those 10 years of freelancing gave me the confidence and ability to sell them on my designs without much of a hassle. It all depends on the company and situation... There is no perfect situation, though, as all of us know!  <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />bonniej - 01:05pm Feb 18, 2003 Pacific (#101 of 113) <br /><br />Tony-- <br /><br />Excellent comments!! <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Emma d'Anise - 08:02am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#102 of 113) <br /><br />Thank you all and Tony especially! That is really good advice. <br /><br />On the other hand, I'm now in a very relevent, but completely different place than when I first posted this. I accepted a full-time graphic designer position with a smallish ISP in my area. Though I like the place alright (yesterday was my first day so it's a bit too soon to really tell), I can't shake the feeling that I could do and be more. I feel like I'm heading in the opposite direction of where I wanted to be. It's funny, all of my life I have dreamed (dreamt?) of having a full-time GD position and now I feel like I want more. But I suppose, as you've said, that I should stay where I am since it is a guaranteed monthly salary in a job market that's taking a nose-dive. Or maybe I should keep looking...hm... <br /><br />But I'm definately printing this thread for future reference, I intend to continue my freelancing on the side, though I think that may kill me stress-wise. <br /><br />~Em <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />bonniej - 08:05am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#103 of 113) <br /><br />Emma-- <br /><br />There is nothing to prevent you from still freelancing in addition to your full time job. Taking on those really creative jobs that you really want. <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Lindas Graphics - 08:24am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#104 of 113) Edited: 19-Feb-2003 at 08:25am PST <br /><br />Emma: Bonnie is right. Also you must realize that some things take time and patience. You are still young. I believe that you should focus on striving for excellence in everything you do -- right where you are -- with a grateful attitude combined with personal integrity. Be dependable at your current job and the future will be more promising. <br /><br />Sometimes success comes little by little, inch by inch. <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />bashibazouk - 08:28am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#105 of 113) <br /><br />It would be cool to archive some of the good threads here before they get expunged. This is one and it's getting close to the edge. Maybe I can copy these posts to a text file or put em in my dbase and then have it on my website. <br /><br />Have you tried Acrobat? It does a good job of turning a website in to a pdf with however much depth you need and all the links work. <br /><br />With that level of duplication, you would probably need adobe's permission to post it on the internet though. <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />John Levine - 08:39am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#106 of 113) <br /><br />There is nothing to prevent you from still freelancing in addition to your full time job. Taking on those really creative jobs that you really want. <br />Oh, Absolutely! I still do freelance work... I guess I should have mentioned that. It's just that it's nice to have the option to take a job or not, knowing you will still be able to pay the bills!  <br /><br />Post Reply
                        • 9. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                          Community Member
                          YrbkMgr - 08:42am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#107 of 113) <br /><br />Emma, <br /><br />I can't shake the feeling that I could do and be more. I feel like I'm heading in the opposite direction of where I wanted to be. <br />Pep talk time - I hope you don't mind. <br /><br />The more experience you gain, the more you have to talk about - don't ever forget that. Approach all of your work with passion and excellence and don't let emotion get in the way of your pocketbook. <br /><br />Since you are relatively young I will share this story with you... <br /><br />There was an old bull and a young bull at the top of a hill. The young bull looked down into the valley and saw that there were hundreds of hefers. The young bull started jumping up and down and said to the old bull "Man do you see all those hefers down there? Let's run down there and "do" one of them!" <br /><br />The old bull replied, "No. Lets WALK down, and "do" them all... <br /><br />The point is, patience dear. Look, listen, observe; improvise, adapt, overcome. You will probably find that what you get at the end of the journey is not nearly as valuable to you as what you become by being on the journey. <br /><br />Finally, remember that you are not your job. You are more - you are faster, better, smarter than most of the people you know (I can tell Emma). Walk down the hill with confidence and "do" them all <grin>. <br /><br />Peace, <br />Tony <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Lindas Graphics - 08:51am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#108 of 113) Edited: 19-Feb-2003 at 08:51am PST <br /><br /><< You will probably find that what you get at the end of the journey is not nearly as valuable to you as what you become by being on the journey. >> <br /><br />I really like that Tony. It's so very true! <br /><br />Whereas what you do matters to an extent, who you are is far more valuable than what you do. <br /><br />I love studying to improve my skills, but I also love studying to improve my character. I try to read something every day that will help me grow as a person. <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Emma d'Anise - 08:59am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#109 of 113) <br /><br />LOL, Tony! That's a great little story and I'm sure I will remember it. Thank you for the pep talk. And I see your point, Linda and John. I really should just enjoy and experience this job to its fullest while I can. I don't think, in graphic-related business, I have ever put any less than my best foot forward and I will strive to continue that. Maybe this is just a stepping stone. The company did, in the past, offer web and graphic design to their clients. Since they no longer provide this service, they said they will just refer the numerous requests they get for such work to me. Perhaps this will be a way for me to build up my freelance client-base. I will try to focus on this and do my best at my new job. I don't know if I'm faster, better, or smarter than anyone, but I do know I'm not too shabby for an artist and designer. I need to work on my confidence, don't I? <br /><br />Again, thank you all. I love you people! I told my new boss yesterday, that I need to be able to visit these forums throughout the day. I said it was a requirement of mine.  He agreed so I can still participate in this wonderful forum! Yey! <br /><br />~Em <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Zeb - 09:03am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#110 of 113) <br /><br />These bulls, what were their names? <br /><br />He's making it up as he goes along?  <br /><br />The longest journey begins with the first step. <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />DS Nelson - 09:27am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#111 of 113) <br /><br />Emma, <br /><br />Glad to hear you're gainfully employed again. Been wondering about your job situation. Does this mean steak and lobster for dinner now instead of noodles?  <br /><br />Dan <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Lindas Graphics - 09:34am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#112 of 113) Edited: 19-Feb-2003 at 09:34am PST <br /><br />Good girl! You're on the right track Emma. <br /><br /><< Since they no longer provide this service, they said they will just refer the numerous requests they get for such work to me. >> <br /><br />This could prove to be very good for you Emma. Sounds like you may have found a nice place to work. <br /><br />Post Reply <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Emma d'Anise - 09:48am Feb 19, 2003 Pacific (#113 of 113) <br /><br />Not for a couple months, Dan. First I pay off my bills, then it's lobster time! Actually, probably shoe time. I intend to blow a smallish chunk of cash on a random shopping spree, just because I can and haven't been able to do that ever. Then it's back to a modest life for me. Maybe not Ramen, but I'm going to attempt to live like I'm still poorish. That way I can hopefully save money and, for once, be ahead of the game. So it will be like now except that the ATM machine won't laugh at me anymore.
                          • 10. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                            Community Member
                            Phosphor - 09:05am Mar 3, 2003 Pacific (#114 of 132)    <br /><br /><Float»before it gets expunged, because I think Patty Clarke will want to read and participate here> <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Lindas Graphics - 02:42pm Mar 5, 2003 Pacific (#115 of 132)   Edited: 05-Mar-2003 at 01:42pm PST  <br /><br />I have a PC based code-geek friend who I found out today charges only $20 per hour and $10 for the half hour. He has more work than he knows what to do with. I think he should be making more than that. What do code geeks usually make? This guy is very very geeky, I mean smart. <br /><br />The reason I ask is because I want to encourage him to charge what he's worth. <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />YrbkMgr - 03:05pm Mar 5, 2003 Pacific (#116 of 132)    <br /><br />Professional computer consultants get between $75/hour and $225/hour. - our average, two years ago was about $150, but we priced differently than others (see my post earlier in the thread). Technicians that I've contracted with get between $50 and $70. If he can live on $20, <shrug> bless him. <br /><br />One of the things one does sometimes is raise prices so that your projects are more manageable. Having a lot of business is only good if you can do it all. <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Lindas Graphics - 07:01pm Mar 5, 2003 Pacific (#117 of 132)    <br /><br />Thanks Tony. Not sure if I should tell him before I need his services or after. : ) <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />dave milbut - 07:56pm Mar 5, 2003 Pacific (#118 of 132)    <br /><br />Friends I help for free. First time. I've told them I'll charge them if they screw something up once I've fixed it, and have never had to help with the same thing twice since. Friends of friends get $45 bux an hour and 20 per half hour, depending on the relationship to the friend of friend. Aquaintences and others get the "comp usa" rate of 90 bux and hour, but as it's usually in their house, they don't mind paying that. Most I ever got (I don't do this except on VERY rare occasions) was 120/hr for restoring my lawyer's database that had crashed. I figured if he was charging me full rate, I could return the favor. :) <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Lindas Graphics - 06:46am Mar 6, 2003 Pacific (#119 of 132)    <br /><br />Sounds like you've got it down Dave. Your philosophy is sensible. Do you keep pretty busy? <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />dave milbut - 02:05pm Mar 6, 2003 Pacific (#120 of 132)    <br /><br />Used to before the kids... now I only do friends in emergencies. And I usually have them drop their system off here. That's a good test of an emergency or not! :) If they're willing to hump it over to my place tonight, it must be serious. Otherwise it waits til the next time I see them. <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />YrbkMgr - 05:37pm Mar 8, 2003 Pacific (#121 of 132)    <br /><br />I tried that Dave. My moron brother in law brings the box, but no monitor, keyboard, or mouse. I hate that. I have to then get a keyboard, and a mouse, and a monitor, and hope that the problem isn't related to his mouse or whatever.... <br /><br />He's poster boy for an idiot who can't find his butt with both hands and a map. <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />dave milbut - 07:53pm Mar 8, 2003 Pacific (#122 of 132)    <br /><br />brings the box, but no monitor, keyboard, or mouse <br />Ahh! I keep an old 14"er handy for just such an occasion. And being an ex-tech support-er It's NEVER a problem for me to find a mouse and a keyboard! In fact if I'm not careful, I occasionally trip over them! :) I prefer not to have all their crap laying around cluttering up my space. <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />John Levine - 01:36pm Mar 12, 2003 Pacific (#123 of 132)    <br /><br />He's poster boy for an idiot who can't find his butt with both hands and a map. <br />Really like your B-I-L, eh, Tony!? ;-) <br /><br />I thought I was the only one with a B-I-L like that! ;-) <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />YrbkMgr - 01:43pm Mar 12, 2003 Pacific (#124 of 132)    <br /><br />John, <br /><br />He's the eldest son who can do no wrong. Barely graduated high school... <br /><br />He's a nice human being, I mean, I've seen mean people and he's not one of them, but the way he draws conclusions is amazing. <br /><br />I like to say this about him: <br /><br />When he hears hoofbeats, he thinks "zebras" not horses. <br /><br />This should be in the pet peeves section because he speaks as if he's an authority on subjects he has absolutely no knowledge about, and cannot form the words "I don't know". <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />John Levine - 01:53pm Mar 12, 2003 Pacific (#125 of 132)    <br /><br />This should be in the pet peeves section because he speaks as if he's an authority on subjects he has absolutely no knowledge about, and cannot form the words "I don't know". <br />OMG! Are you sure we're not related? That's my B-I-L in a nushell! ;-) <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />DS Nelson - 01:56pm Mar 12, 2003 Pacific (#126 of 132)    <br /><br />he speaks as if he's an authority on subjects he has absolutely no knowledge about, and cannot form the words "I don't know". <br />I've often hypothesized that there are four types of people: <br /><br />1. People who are smart and know it. (self-explanatory) <br /><br />2. People who are dumb and know it. (ditto) <br /><br />3. People who are smart but think they're dumb. (harmless but a wasted resource) <br /><br />and, 4. People who are dumb but think they're smart. (the most common and most dangerous) <br /><br />Sorry about the lack of formatting, but I'm in a hurry and I know I'm dumb when it comes to HTML. ;-) <br /><br />Dan <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />emencz - 02:02pm Mar 12, 2003 Pacific (#127 of 132)    <br /><br />People who are dumb and know it. <br />Never met one like that. <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />YrbkMgr - 02:05pm Mar 12, 2003 Pacific (#128 of 132)    <br /><br />John, <br /><br />Are you sure we're not related? <br />Uhm... is your real name Barry? Maybe you ARE my B-I-L and you think the same thing of me!!!! <br /><br />Man! Wouldn't that be a disaster? <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />John Levine - 06:54am Mar 13, 2003 Pacific (#129 of 132)    <br /><br />LMAO! ;-) <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Robert Blackwell - 10:35am Apr 2, 2003 Pacific (#130 of 132)    <br /><br />bump <br /> <br />Post Reply     <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Emma d'Anise - 04:09pm Apr 7, 2003 Pacific (#131 of 132)    <br /><br />bump again <br /><br />Ok, I sort of have an update to add: <br /><br />I'm getting a lot more confident in pricing these days. Since the official start of my business and the full-time GD job I took on as I lost my State job, I'm a lot more aware of how precious time really is. I have very little of it and if I'm going to spend it doing graphic design after an eight hour day of the same, it needs to be worth it. <br /><br />I used to be so scared when it came time to name prices or estimates, but now I'm quickly getting comfortable putting
                            • 11. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                              Community Member
                              dave milbut - 04:23pm Apr 7, 2003 Pacific (#132 of 132)

                              Awesome Em! The risks we take in life pay off the biggest.

                              Post Reply
                              • 12. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                Thanks Pat ,
                                Long time no see.
                                You doing well?
                                • 13. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                  dave milbut Community Member
                                  >There was an old bull and a young bull at the top of a hill.<br /><br /><snicker!><br /><br />Thanks Paz. Hope you're feeling well!<br /><br />dave
                                  • 14. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                    Community Member
                                    Hi Barry,<br /><br />You're welcome.<br /><br />>Doing well?<br /><br />Ha!<br /><br />I've been down with pneumonia since finishing chemo a couple of months ago.  Medicines that help combat the cough bring on new attacks of thrush in my mouth.<br /><br />I still have pins and needles sensation in my feet which I hope will soon reverse itself.  If the nerves have not been damaged, it should get better when enough time has passed for the protective sheath to grow again.  It's too soon to tell.  My lower legs and feet <i>have</i> stopped swelling, for which I am thankful.  I no longer need to wear orthopedic stockings!!! :o)<br /><br />My hair is coming back,lots of grey now.  That's disappointing, but I will dye it if I don't like it.  <br /><br />I still have more surgery ahead of me.  The reconstruction process has been splitting my chest wall muscle (yes, it hurts) and it is still uncertain if the surgical procedure I wanted to do will work.  My plastic surgeon wants to take my abdominal muscles to make new boobs.  I'm not going there.  Either way, the expanders I have now have to be removed.  Sophia Loren or Audry Hepburn? Too soon to tell that too! <vbg><br /><br />I still feel woozy, alternate between chills and clammy sweats and then I can still smell the chemo drugs which makes me nauseated. All the same, I'm no longer losing weight.  I'm back up to 125 and have a much healthier looking appearance than when I was down to 110.  (I'm just under 5' 8".)<br /><br />Worst of all, I have developed lymphedema, a condition in which my right arm will swell to a huge size if I use it.  Quite unfortunate for me since I have been accustomed to using it to paint portraits for the past few decades.  It has already been double normal size twice now and each time it will never get as small as it used to be.  Sometimes my hand is so swollen I can't hold a pencil or make a fist.  So far manual lymph massage and orthopedic glove and sleeve have helped regain a 'normal' size hand.<br /><br />That last one sort of contributes to a general sense of depression.  Knowing that the numbers indicate that I have maybe 5 to 10% chance of surviving past 5 years isn't so cheerful either. I've been given information for signs to look for when/if it comes back.<br /><br />I had a new lump under my left arm biopsied about a week or so ago.  It turned out to be benign this time.<br /><br />Oh, the awful taste in my mouth is MUCH less!!! Woo Hoo!  Things are looking up!<br /><br />Now.... aren't you sorry you asked? <laughing>
                                    • 15. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                      Community Member
                                      Hi Dave,

                                      Thanks!

                                      Last December they gave me 3 months without the surgery and chemo, so I took it.

                                      I'm still here!
                                      • 16. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                        DS_Nelson Community Member
                                        >I'm still here!

                                        And we are so glad you're still here, Pazzy. You can't get rid of us that easily!

                                        Got any more jokes? The joke thread is in need of a bump. I still chuckle about the monkey. I haven't eaten a grape since I read that one!

                                        Dan
                                        • 17. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                          StevieJV Community Member
                                          Good one Paz...you da wo-man!
                                          • 18. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                            dave milbut Community Member
                                            >My hair is coming back,lots of grey now.

                                            Like that sienfeld episode where they guy with the shaved head who had the best hair in high school decides to grow it back and finds out he's going bald!

                                            >I'm no longer losing weight. I'm back up to 125

                                            Excellent! God bless paz! You a one strong woman. Hang in there!

                                            dave
                                            • 19. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                              Community Member
                                              Thanks, guys.

                                              Things will either get better or worse. I'm just along for the ride!
                                              • 20. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                Community Member
                                                Good to hear from you Paz.

                                                I cannot relate to the trials you are overcoming, (since I am really a big baby and would complain over a stubbed toe) you are a better person than I am in this regards.

                                                Keep us informed. We care about your well being and I for one consider you an asset to the lounge.

                                                John
                                                • 21. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                  Community Member
                                                  John,

                                                  Thank you.

                                                  We're all big babies, it's a natural state! I've done plenty of complaining but I've tried to find a way to laugh some too. That has been the hardest part. I've lost some friends whose help I truly needed. I've also gained some new ones who have helped me through. It has made all the difference. Please e-mail me.

                                                  Paz
                                                  • 22. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                    Community Member
                                                    Dave milbut 04:23 pm Apr 7, 2003 Pacific (#132 of 151)

                                                    Awesome, Em! The risks we take in lay pay off the biggest.



                                                    Robert Blackwell 01:52pm Apr 10, 2003 Pacific (#133 of 151)

                                                    Bump

                                                    .

                                                    Ed A. Ortiz 2:05pm Apr 10, 2003 Pacific (#134 of 151)

                                                    Ive not read the thread entirely, but I do have a question that may or may not be of the subject.

                                                    What would be the average time spent on a 8.5X11 brochure cover and how much would you charge?
                                                    ..

                                                    Emma d Anise 02:55pm Apr 10, 2003 Pacific (#135 of 151)

                                                    I just had to bid on a similar project and I was curious too, but I dont know if anyone here would be comfortable posting an estimate. I know Im not. I tried a shot in the dark on mine based on other bids from the past for similar projects from this company and the Graphics Arts Guild Guidebook.

                                                    Anyone have more balls than me here?

                                                    ~Em

                                                    ..

                                                    Lindas Graphics 03:46pm Apr 10, 2003 Pacific (#136 of 151)

                                                    Ed: Just the cover or the whole brochure? What is the finished folded size? How many panels? Whats the final output? Colors?

                                                    Also it depends on the quality of work you do.

                                                    Im willing to talk about it provided I dont risk breaking some kind of law someone mentioned one time. I should think we can talk in general terms, right?

                                                    ..

                                                    Lindas Graphics 05:27pm Apr 10, 2003 Pacific (#137 of 151)

                                                    Ed and Emma: I would allow up to two days on a well-designed brochure, provided all the elements are provided at one time and the client has some idea what he/she wants. You might figure your hourly fee x hours it should take, if you are inexperienced you might want to charge according to the time it should take rather than would take.

                                                    My minimum fee on any brochure (other than a favor) is one days worth of work. My hourly fee is slightly less than most designers though.

                                                    I recently received a call from someone who wanted a brochure like the one I did for a local celebrity. This was my best work with quite a bit of photo editing. I quoted the man a little over two days worth of work for the design fee. I think it was too high for him but for some reason I felt it best to leave it high. He said thankyou and hung up.

                                                    I think if he had been nicer from the get-go and not immediately asked me for the price in such a blunt way, I might have been nicer on the price. I prefer working with nice people. ;)
                                                    ..

                                                    Lindas Graphics 05:52pm Apr 10, 2003 Pacific (#138 of 151)

                                                    Emma: did you use the GAG prices? Which range? Did you get the job?

                                                    ..

                                                    DS Nelson 07:59pm Apr 10, 2003 Pacific (#139 of 151)

                                                    >anyone have more balls than me here?
                                                    >~Em

                                                    Not touching that line with a 10 foot.errr.never mind.

                                                    Computer to surf the net $750

                                                    Internet service provider..$14.95

                                                    Watching Gull commit the mother of all typos and accidentally call Emma a bad name.priceless.

                                                    Dan
                                                    .

                                                    Ed. A. Ortiz 06:55am Apr 11, 2003 Pacific (#140 of 151)

                                                    Linda,

                                                    Its just the cover for the brochure. I used two colors some text and some photos. They provided the photos and an idea of what they were looking for. The cover is 17.5x11.5 with a bleed on the top and bottom. I provided 5 different layouts for them to choose from. Im not sure what you mean by how many panels. As far as the final output, its being sent out to a service provided if thats what you mean. They have their service provider already, so I was instructed to send an RGB illustrator file.

                                                    I had no idea that this was a touchy subject, I do understand though. I appreciate the information youve provided. Its very helpful. Thank very, very much. J
                                                    ..

                                                    Phosphor 12:44pm Apr 11, 2003 Pacific (#141 of 151)
                                                    PhosPhloat and back to original topic:

                                                    I was looking for something else and found (link) this series of articles at Creative Pro that offer advice on pricing, going solo, etc.

                                                    Worth reading, or at least bookmarking for later reference.
                                                    ..

                                                    Lindas Graphics 06:44pm Apr 20, 2003 Pacific (#142 of 151)

                                                    Phosphor: Good link! Creative Pro is one of my favorite places to visit when I have the time to read the articles.

                                                    Ed: How did it go with your brochure cover? Did you get what you felt it was worth?

                                                    .

                                                    Emma dAnise 02:26pm May 8, 2003 Pacific (#143 of 151)

                                                    One last bump.


                                                    Phosphor 02:42pm May 8, 2003 Pacific (#144 of 151)

                                                    And a worthy bump it is. It deserves Viagra once in a while to keep it up.

                                                    This is a good topic, and has generated a bunch of good tangents.



                                                    Robert Blackwell 11:18 am May 22, 2003 Pacific (#145 of 151)

                                                    Bump.

                                                    ..

                                                    jay chevako 11:40am May 22, 2003 Pacific (#146 of 151)

                                                    Robert BlackwellT

                                                    >bump.

                                                    You are always bumping up the pricing!
                                                    Jay


                                                    John Leveine 12:18pm May 22, 2003 Pacific (#147 of 151)

                                                    >PhosPhloat

                                                    I like that! ;-)

                                                    .

                                                    Cheesefood 02:49pm May 22, 2003 Pacific (#148 of 151)

                                                    So heres a question:

                                                    Did I underbid myself? On the AI forum a while back, a guy was looking for someone to design a logo for his Family Reunion. It was a pretty easy gigtwo pieces of clip art and some text on a path.

                                                    I charged him $50. Its an old guy doing a silk-screen pattern for his family reunion. I spent MAYBE two hours on it.

                                                    It was the first $50 Ive made truly freelancing. A company laid me off had me soing some work for them, but I dont know if that counts. Plus they only paid me $20 an hour.
                                                    ..

                                                    Stephen mcleod 08:24am May 23, 2003 Pacific (#149 of 151)

                                                    Em,

                                                    Sorry if someone has suggested this previously (being to lazy to read the whole post again)

                                                    Why not go to a couple of local agencies and ask them to quote you a logo design job with 2 changes? That should give you a rough idea of what people in your area are charging, as well as giving you a sneaky peek at the opposition.

                                                    Good luck
                                                    Stevie
                                                    ..

                                                    Lindas Graphics 01:04pm May 23, 2003 Pacific (#150 of 151)

                                                    Cheesefood: As I see it, the more experience and artistic ability that you gain, the more money you can charge. For someone just starting out, using two pieces of clip art and text on a path, $50 was probably about right, especially since it was for a family reunion. Many pros charge more for a large company, less for a small one.

                                                    I charge from $350 to $500 for a logo, depending on the time invested and the demands of the client.

                                                    ..

                                                    Tim Lookingbill 12:26am May 25, 2003 Pacific (#151 of 151)

                                                    Watch out pricing too low on designs for big gatherings and events that appear to be nonprofit or at least nonprofessional.

                                                    I used to work at a screen printing company that did quite a bit of business with college frat houses. I cranked out a lot of six color had separated designs for these organizations as well as handle the companys retail line they marketed to malls around the country.

                                                    I thought I should start asking for a commission on some of this work, but thought the frat houses were just small local gatherings.

                                                    Boy, was I wrong!

                                                    On the invoices and workorders may $200 to $300 was only being billed. I thought that wasnt much, so I didnt make any demands on compensation.

                                                    I later found out the prices only reflected the upfront costs the company requires before they start a job with these frat houses. Later the frat houses would come back and order about 10,000 shirts to be distributed among the entire fraternity across the nation. Since I was an employee working at $7/hr, they felt I didnt need to be told this or compensated for it, either.

                                                    I felt I needed to quit and so I did.
                                                    • 23. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                      Community Member
                                                      double post
                                                      • 24. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                        dave milbut Community Member
                                                        is this gonna go again? last time i'm saving it....
                                                        • 25. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                          Community Member
                                                          Anybody want to host Original Pricing Thread (71KB), optimized for size?
                                                          • 26. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                            Dirck Community Member
                                                            I can make a folder of sticky threads, the ones that are true resources. When I wake up, anyway...

                                                            Name your candidates.
                                                            • 27. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                              Community Member
                                                              c WAKE UP!!!
                                                              • 28. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                                Dirck Community Member
                                                                Committees are being consulted, plans are being drawn, reviewed, rejected, redrawn and reconsidered.

                                                                Should be ready in time for "Must-Have Additions for OS-XIV".
                                                                • 29. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                                  Community Member
                                                                  A long night of Krispie Kreme and Katnip...

                                                                  It'd be nice to turn some into PDFs, since they're read-only anyway.

                                                                  I have backup copies of Smilies Live (with all of those cool smileys documented), my blog and John Levine is terrific for the permanent archive, in case you've misplaced your copies.
                                                                  • 30. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                                    Community Member
                                                                    The AIGA/AQUENT 2006 Survey/Calculator of Design Salaries (US-only):

                                                                    http://www2.designersalaries.com/aiga/Home.form
                                                                    • 31. Re: Emma's Pricing Thread
                                                                      Community Member
                                                                      Some advice from CreativePro about "Setting Rates for Your Small Design Firm" which takes into consideration some of the everyday expenses many might forget:
                                                                      "When you're a freelancer, setting rates is relatively simple; you fill in a few cost numbers, find a comfortable profit margin (if you can), and divide the cost of business by the number of hours you want or need to work. As a result, most freelancers have a single rate card."

                                                                      "Setting rates is a bit more complicated when you're running a small design firm or managing a team with a wide variation in compensation and skill level."

                                                                      "When you're estimating rates for your firm, you also have to take into account a wide range of overhead costs, particularly if you're paying workers as bona fide employees rather than contractors. This includes (as you may be painfully aware) the additional cost of insurance, FICA, workers comp, vacation time, and sick time.
                                                                      http://www.creativepro.com/printerfriendly/story/24506.html