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Jim, I've heard it rumoured.. and don't take this as support or confirmation of that rumour - the Adobe is currently working on a Bluray solution.
At any rate, it is likely that Adobe will develop a solution, but very doubtful that we will hear anything about it until a day before it is released!
I recently got an email advertisement from Sonic and their newest version of Scenarist supports HD and Blu-Ray DVDs.
For those who are interested.
Good news, Craig. I hope it's true, but I agree we really won't know until we can actually buy or upgrade.
>their newest version of Scenarist supports HD and Blu-Ray DVDs.
Great! Let me get my wallet. And yours...and his...and hers...and that guy over there's...and my neighbor's...and...and...and...never mind, it's still not enough.
For the bundle, including BRD, HD DVD & SD DVD, you need to spring a whopping $150,000.
Better go rob a bank or something!
Plus it's still vapourware & not actually shipping yet.
Premiere Pro can support up to 1080 resolution footage, and if you edit & master at this res then dump down to MPEG-2 for SD DVD, you will still get a noticeable improvement in quality.
HD DVD needs a 50" (some say 60"+) to really see any benefits, and even then it is all down to your actual display, which may or may not be true HD capable. Most are not.
>HD DVD needs a 50" (some say 60"+) to really see any benefits
I don't agree. Even on a 36" 1/2 resolution (1 million of the total 2 million possible pixels) CRT, the picture is VASTLY superior to SD.
First review of a $1,000 BluRay burner
Holy crap!!! $1,000? That's a far cry from the $50 or so today's best dual-layer burners will cost you. And what's up with using an IDE interface? You'd think this kind of "tomorrow's technology" would include nothing less than a SATA II connection.
> Holy crap!!!
Sums the whole format up, when you get right down to basics.
The cheapest way to do this is to wait for at least 6 to 12 months, then set up an XP Media Centre equipped system, or even a Vista equivalent (assuming Microsoft can get the dreadful bugs out of it) and then install an HD DVD drive & a BRD drive.
That will save the £1,000+ per player to get both.
(Vista right now uses a whopping 800Mb of RAM just to load, and the instant you do anything at all, like open the built-in email client, it tips well over 1Gb.
It's all that nonsensical graphics frippery. The PC's get more & more powerful - but that simply just about keeps up with the OS requirements.
I remember my first SX66 486 class CPU (Pre Pentium days here) with it's massive 4Mb of RAM. And who can forget the comment from Big Bill "640K of memory is more than enough for anyone".
Funny how we still take exactly the same amount of time to actually
And meanwhile in the Netherlands hobbyist programmers are making 3d animations (with music) with only 64k of very very clever code.
2 articles in PC Magazine
1 - feature comparison
2 - review of Toshiba HD-A1 player
The Toshiba HD-A1 is basically a 2.6GHz Pentuim 4 running a modified Linux OS.
And it won't play existing DVD-A format discs either.
Bad news when anything more than a RISC makes it into consumer electronics devices. People kind of like the fact that CE gear just works, myself included. In fact, this idea is exactly backwards. The computer industry ought to be working diligently to mimic the CE industry. For example, you plug any brand of CD player into your receiver, and you get music. Period. No rebooting, no downloading updates and patches from the Internet, no missing or conflicting codecs. You plug in all the wires, you hit play, you get music.
Simple, workable. That's what folks want.
>Simple, workable. That's what folks want.
Which is exactly why I believe HD to be doomed from the start.
The chance was there to do it
and was not taken. Too many compromises to protect vested interests.
And BRD is even worse.
I actually think Blu-ray is the superior format, from a consumer viewpoint. Only big companies benefit from the HD-DVD format, and even those benefits (reduced manufacturing and initial startup costs) have been questioned. The DVD forum chose to back the wrong group this time, and the consumer will pay the price.
I thought blueray player wouldn't play standard dvds, whicxh I assume would be a big deal for a lot of movie buffs.
No, Blu-ray does support standard DVD playback.
> I actually think Blu-ray is the superior format, from a consumer viewpoint. Only big companies benefit from the HD-DVD format, and even those benefits (reduced manufacturing and initial startup costs) have been questioned. The DVD forum chose to back the wrong group this time, and the consumer will pay the price.
Sorry Jim, I could not disagree more here.
BRD uses 0.1mm focus point, which is totally contrary to every other optical disc format using 0.6mm away from the surface of the disc.
This means the following problems are going to happen:
1 - Multiple lasers for playback of other formats.
2 - Completely new replication plant in every replication facility in the world. (HD DVD uses 0.6mm, and existing plant can be modified)
3 - SERIOUS reliability issues. Even a fingerprint will throw off the ficus of the laser here, and renatl copies will not survive more than a few weeks at best. It's almost as if obsolescence is built right in.
Additionally, we have these issues too:
4 - Attempting to use ANY handset hacks to bypass region coding etc will result in a dead player. It will need to be reset at the service centre.
5 - Internet connection will be mandatory. (This
be removed but don't hold your breath)
Oh - and the much touted PS3 Blu Ray support?
No HDMI output on the PS3. So that's about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. There will apparently be 2 versions, a cheap one (no HDMI) and one at 50% more money with HDMI. Great. Thanks again, Sony.
And there are a lot more issues as well, not just with BRD but HD DVD as well.
And prepare to be very surrised at just how limited these are. I still do not think either will survive, but if one has to then I sincerely hope it is NOT the ghastly BRD.
Issues 1 and 2 I was aware of, which are the manufacturing benefits the HD-DVD format was touting. But as I said, I have read opinions disagreeing with those benefits. Certainly it's somewhat moot now, as there are currently Blu-ray plants up and running.
As for the fingerprint issue, I have also read reports about a new process of coating the disk which makes them even more resistant to misreads from fingerprints and scratches than standard DVDs.
I've no problem with number 4. People shouldn't be trying to illegally modify their hardware in the first place.
The Internet connection will actually NOT be required for standard playback of movies, only for extras and things.
As for game consoles, I'm definitely a PC gamer, so I couldn't care less.
Given the higher storage and transfer rates of Blu-ray, I still feel it is definitely the superior format from a consumer standpoint.
>I've no problem with number 4. People shouldn't be trying to illegally modify their hardware in the first place.
So it's okay to be told that "Thou shalt not buy a movie whilst on Holiday, as thou shalt not be able to play it when thou gettest it home"?
In these days of "Globalization", region coding is an outdated way to restrict the sale of goods. I agree that Copy Protection methods need to be in place and have said so on more than one occasion. But region coding is like telling me that I cannot buy a Pair of shoes in Germany, or that I cannot buy any electrical goods outside my own country? Get real, Jim. How would
like it if you bought a CD in the UK, took it to the USA only to find that it would not play?
>Given the higher storage and transfer rates of Blu-ray, I still feel it is definitely the superior format from a consumer standpoint.
And just what content actually
50 to 75Gb of data storage then? (The specs still being discussed) Why is this such a benefit? I have yet to see an SD DVD that actually fills up the maximum allowable space.
Transfer rates? That is not going to be any different. The required transfer rate depends on the streams. DTS-HD Lossless will be the same regardless of the format it is on, as will VC-1 video, H.264 Video or MPEG-4 video. It's all the same.
(HD DVD has a maximum transfer rate of 36.55Mbps.
BRD actually has a maximum rate of 36, so in matter of fact HD DVD has a slightly better transfer rate. See
for the details on BRD, and
for the details on HD DVD)
This is plenty. Even allowing for 25Mbps for the video, which almost certainly won't be used by either camp.)
says HD DVD is the better format, and that is a consumer driven site.
There are many more like this.
But, as I keep saying, we shall have to wait & see.
>So it's okay to be told that "Thou shalt not buy a movie whilst on Holiday, as thou shalt not be able to play it when thou gettest it home"?
I don't have a problem with that.
>In these days of "Globalization", region coding is an outdated way to restrict the sale of goods.
I am currently unaware of any other way.
>region coding is like telling me that I cannot buy a Pair of shoes in Germany
That's more than a bit overstated.
>How would you like it if you bought a CD in the UK, took it to the USA only to find that it would not play?
Whether or like it or not isn't the issue. Hollywood has a distribution scheme. Region Coding is the only way I know of to enforce that scheme. I don't have a problem with this.
>And just what content actually requires 50 to 75Gb of data storage then?
Some of my projects might well take up that much space (including the DV footage). I think it would be nice to record onto portable HD (no tape), transfer that to my editing workstation, and when finished archive all that footage onto a single Blu-ray.
>I have yet to see an SD DVD that actually fills up the maximum allowable space.
Try the extended versions of the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy. Each movie is split into two dual-layers disks to make them fit. You actually have to get up and switch disks in the middle of the movie, ala the early days of Laser Disc.
>BRD actually has a maximum rate of 36,
The following quote comes from the Blu-ray Disk Association's web site.
"With High Definition video with a resolution of up to 1920x1080 and up to a 54 Mbit/sec bandwidth (roughly double that of a normal HDTV broadcast), no other format can match Blu-ray Disc's video quality. Furthermore, due to the overwhelming capacity of a Blu-ray Disc, no tight compression algorithms that may alter the picture quality are required, as with other formats that offer less recording space."
>HD DVD is the better format, and that is a consumer driven site.
I question that. One of the Pros listed for HD-DVD is, and I quote "enabling use of the same manufacturing infrastructure as current DVD, which minimizes disc production costs." That is CLEARLY a manufacturer benefit, and has no value whatsoever to the consumer. Unless you live in fairly land and are gullible enough to believe this will affect the consumer's cost of movies.
When you look at the pros and Cons listed for both formats, the only con listed for Blu-ray is the initial expense required to convert manufacturing plants, which has alreqady been done. But the site somehow missed listing the reduced capacity and bandwidth for HD-DVD as cons, which they definitely are from a consumer standpoint.
>as I keep saying, we shall have to wait & see
Now that is one thing we can agree on.
>"With High Definition video with a resolution of up to 1920x1080 and up to a 54 Mbit/sec bandwidth (roughly double that of a normal HDTV broadcast), no other format can match Blu-ray Disc's video quality. Furthermore, due to the overwhelming capacity of a Blu-ray Disc, no tight compression algorithms that may alter the picture quality are required, as with other formats that offer less recording space."
So why does the press release from Pioneer's site say something completely different then?
they claim 36Mbps. Not 54!
Seems that even the companies that are behind this mess cannot even agree on it's "capabilities".
I don't write Pioneer's press releases. I can't say why they got it wrong.
If indeed they did.
It could equally be an exaggeration on the website you quote - after all, it's not exactly unheard of.
Pioneer are one of the Blu Ray consortium, so I trust their releases over a website.
The quote came from the Blu-ray Disk Association, the group that oversees the entire Blu-ray standard. I'm afraid I have to give the accuracy nod to them.
If I upgrade from Encore 1.5.1 to Encore 2.0 will I beable to use projects created in Premiere 1.5.1 generated by a High Definition video camera to make a High Definition DVD? If my project contains about 2&1/2 hours of footage, is there a DVD disk that will display this project - say with a moving menu background and several links? (In some wedding DVD's I have made, there is actually this much total footage when all the links are added together.) If so, to what do I EXPORT my project from Premiere so I can create a high definition DVD in Encore?
I know nothing of Blue Rays - a term I picked up in the this discussion except at night when it is very late.
from out of the blue,
Encore is a Standard Definition tool, not HD DVD or Blu Ray.
What you can do, however, and this will make a difference, is to shoot & edit in HD, then after you have your final movie finished downscale to SD resolution & MPEG encode from that.
Do not try to downscale & MPEG encode at the same time.
Currently, to Author HD DVD, you need the following
Scenarist 4 HD DVD
(Total cost is around $110,000)
Boy, that was quick. I was proudly displaying my message to my wife and your answer was there. And easy - I guess I'll just charge $110,000 for my next project - tiny joke.
Sorry about this but I'm sort of a novice. Exactly how do I downscale from an HD project to SD resolution. Do I export using a certain codec in Adobe Media Encoder? If so, which one?
Then how do I get the project into MPEG? And is it MPEG or MPEG 2?
Again, please excuse my ignorance.
from the darkness before the light (I hope),
Not that well up on capturing & working in HD sad to say.
The way we have done this in the past is to capture the footage in it's source format:
HDV (The Sony High Definition format that uses a form of MPEG compression)
Do all the necessary editing in native resolution in, say, Premiere Pro (or whatever NLE you use).
Then when this is finished, export the movie out at 720x480 (for NTSC) and then encode this to MPEG-2 for DVD.
From Premiere, export as a movie and then encode the movie to MPEG-2 for DVD - the Adobe Media Encoder does a fine job.
I have found that trying to go from HD straight to DVD quality MPEG-2 is simply not as good as using the intermediate stage.
Many thanks Neil,
I doubt that I would have ever discovered that on my own. I use Premiere Pro 1.5 - ahem 1.5.1. Using your directions I believe what I am going to do is:
1] From Premiere export my footage as a movie - 720x480 NTSC.
2] Import it back into a widescreen project in Premiere.
3] Export it again using Adobe Media Encoder - MPEG-2 for DVD.
Before I commit to a test run, from what you know about Premiere, does that seem right?
In any case, again your assistance was much appreciated.
from the moments just before dawn (literally & figuratively)
If you're also running EncoreDVD I would export from Premiere Pro as a movie, 720x480 NTSC, and then bring that right into Encore & allow Encore to transcode automatically for you - it will set an optimal bitrate for you.
Plus, you'll get more control over Chapter placement.
Unless you need to encode Audio to 5.1, or want more control over the Dolby Digital process in which case you'll also want to purchase the SUrCode AC3/Dolby Digital Encoder too.
The advice above on editing your HDV and then downscaling to Standard Def is certainly correct for playing on your (or your client's) DVD player
You could offer your clients a Blu-Ray version of the same project in some months when they get a Blu-Ray player. At the moment, YOU CAN put a full HDV project on a Blu-Ray disc with bundled software included with a Blu-Ray burner. I purchased a Sony BWU-100A burner a month ago ($750) and it included "Cyberlink BD Solution". Power Producer for Blu-Ray would accept the .avi file from PremPro and burn it to Blu-Ray. My 99 minute project was an 86gig .avi and resulted in 19.3gigs on Blu-Ray 6 hours later. There is no provision as yet for Blu-Ray menus, but you can add chapter marks. The rest of the software is very rough and "capture" would not work at all on my system.
This is all very early however. The resulting disc WOULD NOT LOAD on a retailer's early version Samsung BD-1000 player. In 3 weeks I'll receive my Sony BDP-S1 player and see if an all Sony solution works better. I suspect the Samsung player was rushed to market and was "pre-standard" in where it put the folders...but we shall see.
Just keep the .avi file around! You could export .mpg back to the camera, but you will likely have to recapture and re-encode later doing that.
The way we are working now is to use Cineform AspectHD, which brings the m2t transport stream from the HDV tape into the computer as an AVI file.
There are 3 options, small, medium & large file sizes.
Medium is not much bigger than DV, and the quality is appreciably higher.
It's 1440 x 1080i, and edits beautifully.
Export goes to Cineform HD codec, at usual resolutions of 720x480 or 720 x576 in 16:9.
This can be laid back to HDV tape, or else taken to SD DVD, and the improvement in quality is clear to see.
AspectHD is $499, and almost quadruples the power of Premiere Pro.
It is unbelievable value for money, plus of course you don't need Blu Ray or HD DVD players - there are players that will play the cineform codec, by all accounts.
Looking into this - and there is also a camera coming out (or so I am informed) that will record straight to HDD in the Cineform codec.
It is well worth checking out.
Don't rush to get Aspect HD, it's not worth the price. I own it and only used it 2 times because of the hours of rendering. If you place an effect, speed change, color.. you name it and you have to render it and that's using a dual, dual core machine. Cineform will say O it's just frame blending that's why you get the red line in Premier.. but you still have to render to see the full effect. Your other options are Eduis, or Matrox... I use Eduis 3.6... I can do two streams of HDV... with pip, slow motion, old movie. I see it in real time no need to render.
Re Michael and his comments on AspectHD
This thread was about Adobe help in getting HDV onto a disc or other media our clients or relatives are likely to be able to play. In that respect Blu-Ray is here and will only be more useful as software becomes available to do menus and such. I think it is highly unlikely any mass market player will play the edit-optimized and lightly compressed Cineform .avi.
As to the utility of Cineform for editing, I am very happy with it. Many find HDV editing without it just too balky even on maxed machines. You should, of course, use the Cineform adjustment tools preferentially, but you need not immediately render everything with a red bar over it.
> Don't rush to get Aspect HD, it's not worth the price. I own it and only used it 2 times because of the hours of rendering. If you place an effect, speed change, color.. you name it and you have to render it and that's using a dual, dual core machine. Cineform will say O it's just frame blending that's why you get the red line in Premier.. but you still have to render to see the full effect. Your other options are Eduis, or Matrox... I use Eduis 3.6... I can do two streams of HDV... with pip, slow motion, old movie. I see it in real time no need to render.
Well, this is not what happened for us this week.
Captured in the HDV footage from the Sony M15-E deck to CineformHD.
Edited, added various colour corrections, effects & transitions, and not once did a red line demanding the timeline/sequence to be rendered appeared. Not once.
Export went out to Export Movie, PAL D1/DV 16:9, CineformHD codec straight to an AVI file.
This was then laid back to a DVCAM tape, and MPEG-2 encoded for DVD as well, and the quality was beautiful.
Okay - rendering to an m2t transport stream is necessary to lay back to HDV tape, but it certainly is not needed to export an edited timeline from Premiere Pro 2.
There is a camera coming that will record straight to HDD with the Cineform codec, and that will change the way a lot of things are done.
You can stuff it as far as I am concerned. If, and it is a seriously big IF, I go anywhere near a BLue Laser setup it will be when
A - the specs are actually implemented in players - right now they are not.
B - when authoring software gets a little less like the cost of an average house
C - when I see it actually starting to generate serious enquiries (right now it does not)
also it will be HD DVD, not Blu Ray.
> I think it is highly unlikely any mass market player will play the edit-optimized and lightly compressed Cineform .avi.
Once you export out to D1/DV AVI, the quality is still far superior to DV footage as traditionally captured.
So, in that respect, anything that can play an SD AVI will play the Cineform HD encoded AVI file - and CCE SP & TMPGEnc both encode them to beautifully crisp MPEG-2 files for SD DVD. The resulting image is definitely better as well.
DOn't get all hung up on Blu Ray. They are not the only player, and far from having "won" the HD war.
I wish I had the good luck with Cineform... but it didn't and still doesn't.
That a side most of what I have read most people are not happy with Blue Ray, Sony's stock dropped after a show in Europe in which almost all the Play Stations had to be re booted several times. So don't bet on Sony this time.
Don good luck with Cineform.