36 Replies Latest reply: Aug 14, 2008 3:09 AM by Neil Wilkes RSS

    how do you do surround sound audio then?

      Ok heres the basic outline.

      Using Audition (was made in v1.5, now I have v2.0) I created a 5.1 mix of a music track.
      I also have a video file with no sound (an .avi file at 720x576 and 25fps)

      I would like to tie them together and end up with a DVD-Video that plays the video with the sound track in 5.1.

      Is it possible? and are there ANY tutorials on this? Encore (v2.0) boasts that you can do this, but I can't find any documentation on how to do it.

      Please help a beginner!

      Thank you in advance
        • 1. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
          Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
          Hello Dave.

          Let's see if we can get you happening in glorious surround then!

          You mention that you are using Adobe's Audition - in this case, you should be able to get 6 mono WAV files of your mix with little difficulty. This is what you need to have.

          Your first problem is that although Multichannel PCM Audio is actually catered for in the DVD-Video specs, there has never been a player built that can deal with this, so you need to get your files encoded into another format.
          You have 3 options.
          1 - Dolby Digital
          2 - Dolby Pro Logic II
          3 - DTS
          All these options require you to use an encoder, and these are not supplied with Audition - Audition is not a video application, and has no provision for Dolby Digital, DTS or DPL II.
          Do you have a copy of Premiere Pro? If so, there is an extremely high quality professional grade 5.1 Dolby Digital encoder built right into it - the "gotcha" is that because this is licensed technology, you need to buy it as you will only get 3 test encodes - and unless you get seriously lucky, you'll use these up getting the encoding right as this is not a simple process.
          It's actually very cheap when you think about what you get - Adobe have done a deal with Minnetonka Audio, and Premiere Pro owners can get this unlocked for only $295. The full, standalone version is $599, so you can see it''s a good deal!
          Once you have this file - AC3 will be the extension - you can import this right into Encore with no trouble.
          DO NOT use the freeware tools like BeSweet, as they are reverse engineered. This cannot use the Dolby Logos, and most importantly is not guaranteed to produce a properly compliant stream.

          Dolby ProLogic II is again an encoded file, but this one is matrixed - it wraps the 5.1 channels into a stereo Lt/Rt type file, which will play in Stereo on Stereo systems, and in 5.1 on surround systems.
          The downsides are space - it takes up the same room as a PCM stereo file, and cost - the encoders are around $500.

          DTS is again an addon - but this is an optional format, which means players are not required to support it - and a DVD with DTS audio must also have either Dolby Digital stereo or PCM included as a minimum requirement. DTS is the best sounding option IMHO.

          If you need to know more, please ask.
          • 2. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
            Community Member
            For me, too, this was useful information. It would be nice if Adobe simply mentioned in the manual and on their product pages that you need an additional license for a surround encoder. Now it looks like they are actually trying to hide it. It took me hours of trying with different options, especially since Encore once did accept a (very short) 5.1 wav file for a little test project and transcoded it without complaining about too many channels or mentioning any trials for the Minnetonka encoder.
            • 3. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
              Harm Millaard CommunityMVP
              Be aware that Encore does not need the Surcode plug-in, but can only encode WAV files to AC3 in the 2.0 format, so if you import a 5.1 WAV file into Encore, your end result will be simple stereo.

              The only sensible way to get 5.1 sound into Encore is to buy the Surcode plug-in and encode the timeline with AME to MPEG and 5.1 AC3. No transcoding necessary in Encore.
              • 4. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                >Now it looks like they are actually trying to hide it.

                Er, no. It clearly says in the manual that 5.1 files are not handled internally by the built-in Dolby Digital Encoder.
                • 5. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                  Hi.Does Encore DVD2 handles Dolby 5.1 in a different way from EncoreDVD1.5?
                  Because I created an AC3 Dolby 5.1 with Sonic Foundry (Uh,discontinued but good...) and I tried to import it in Encore DVD 1.5 (well,I posted something like this in 1.5 forum but is a desert...)and Encore gave me his answer: Could not import file"xxxx".More than two audio channel for this type of encoding is not supported.
                  I ever thought EncoreDVD was a "Professional Movie Maker" oriented SW...Would I be a "Professional" only buying Minnetonka?
                  I'm so sorry : more I use it and less I love it,but this is only my opinion and maybe I'm too much dummy to be able to use it...
                  • 6. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                    Harm Millaard CommunityMVP
                    In my experience Encore has no problems with AC3 5.1 encoded files using Minnetonka Surcode. If you have problems, it likely is Sonic Foundry not adhering to rather strict encoding rules of Encore.
                    • 7. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                      Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                      Fabrizio.

                      I'll be looking in the 1.5 forums later on and will answer you there.
                      However, from personal experience, all versions of Encore are fine with Dolby Digital 5.1 audio.
                      • 8. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                        <DTS is again an addon...and a DVD with DTS audio must also have either Dolby Digital stereo or PCM included as a minimum requirement. DTS is the best sounding option IMHO.><br /><br />    Can you give out any more details about this? Addon?? how to I get a DTS addon for Premiere Pro? I know it is available as a standalone but how is it available as an addon? Also, I need more info on the restrictions that you mentioned involving needing PCM as a minimum requirement.<br /><br />Thanks, <br />Peter
                        • 9. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                          Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                          >Addon?? how to I get a DTS addon for Premiere Pro?

                          Sorry about the wrong word there - by "addon" I meant that Encore does not have any built-in DTS encoders, and neither does Premiere Pro.
                          There are 3 companies selling DTS encoders that I know of:
                          1 - Minnetonka Audio, specifically the SurCode section. see http://www.surcode.com/ and look for the SurCode DTS-DVD encoder. This is at the moment half-price at $500. Expensive, when you consider the following options but still the cheapest way to get DTS Audio.
                          2 - Steinberg - they sell a plug-in DTS encoder for their Nuendo & Cubase systems. NOT cheap, currently around $1500.
                          3 - DTS themselves, or their licensed dealers. Current shipping encoder is the DTS-PSE, which can handle not only core DTS, but also the DTS-ES (both discrete & Matrixed for 6.1) as well as DTS 96/24. All these streams are DVD Legal.
                          The new series of encoders is due out any time now. I have been using one for a frew months, and it is even better - the DTS-HD SAS will give you every possible stream except DTS-HD MAS (Lossless and High Resolution - more in a minute) for all types of disc including DVD, HD DVD and Blu Ray. It's around $800.
                          The flagship encoder, DTS-HD MAS will be around $1500 or so, and will be complete including decoders & stream players as well as tools to stitch up the new streams. DTS-HD MAS is lossless, with nothing thrown away. DTS-HD High Resolution will still be up to 24/96, in 7.1, but at up to double the current highest bitrate permissible in DVD-Video of 1509Kb/sec.
                          Downside is these newer extensions are not supported in DVD-Video at all, and only the top of the range Authoring systems for Blu Ray & HD DVD will support this. The Noddy & Big Ears edition of DVDit has no DTS support at all despite it being the only high quality Multichannel format actually mandated across both HD DVD & Blu Ray. Go figure.

                          Legality.
                          In SD DVD, DTS is considered an "optional" format. This means in the real world that no DVD player is actually required to be capable of handling a DTS stream. In reality, some will but most still won't. In those that will there are 2 possibilities:
                          1 - Internal decoding
                          2 - "Passthrough" mode (IE outputting the unprocessed bitstream for external decoding in an amplifier).
                          The latter is the best option. If decoding internally, chances are high you must then use a 6 channel analogue output from the back of the player, or else it will decode to a stereo stream by employing internal downmixing.
                          When a player can output the raw bitstream, this is better as it allows the amp to decode, which it will always do at the best possible quality it can. This is important, as it gets to the er, "core" of the DTS system (Joke there for those who understand DTS!)
                          DTS uses a 24/48 Core stream, with everything else as extensions to the core. So, if the stream is a 24/96 resolution 6.1 DTS-ES, this is allowable as the extended frequency response & the extra channels are in the extensions, leaving the original core alone. This allows legacy equipment to still decode, and ensures that all amps/decoders use the best they can.

                          Trouble with being optional is this:
                          i you cannot legally create a DVD-Video disc with just DTS audio. It will be out of spec.
                          Discs MUST contain either LPCM or Dolby Digital as Audio Stream 1.
                          • 10. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                            Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                            Neil,

                            This is a followup question to your excellent and inclusive reply. I do not wish to hi-jack a thread, but you have provided so much info, that I also am seeking, that I ask for additional info. I'm working with the Adobe Production Studio, so I have all of their programs.

                            I, too, am interested in outputting audio (in these cases, all original and electronically created via various SW) in 5.1 and an optional DTS version. I'm still trying to find all threads in the fora (Audition, EncoreDVD, PP2, etc.) to fill in all of my blanks.

                            I've got the SurCode Dolby CODEC for PP2 and usually have 6 mono WAV files from my other SW, which Encore accepts. I am interested in adding on the SurCode DTS module, but cannot get much, in the way of details, from their site. Is this ALL that I will need? If I read your last paragraph correctly, I will need MORE than the US$500 SurCode DTS package, is this correct?

                            To date, I can set up an APP2 project with 5.1 Dolby, but cannot get my 6 mono files into the 5.1 (Audio 4, in this case) track. There is no provision for mixing to anything but the Master, and the 5.1 track remains blank. I've imported the project into Encore with various versions of the audio file(s), WMA (which shows 5.1), as well as the six mono files in WAV. I get a mixed stereo output, with the rear channels silent, so I am obviously missing something. What?

                            Lastly, I've spent months doing searches in these fora, plus Googling for every possible text string, that I can think of. About all I get are the basic definitions for 5.1, how to set up a home theater, etc. Can you, or anyone else, point me to a good resource, book, forum, Usenet NG, etc.? I'm not interested in recording live 5.1, only outputting it to CD/DVD. The AA2 forum has helped some, but they are so far above my understanding, that I have only "translated" about 15% of my post there.

                            Thanks for any direction, info, suggestions and thoughts.

                            Hunt
                            • 11. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                              Harm Millaard CommunityMVP
                              Bill,

                              Maybe I did not understand correctly, in which case please disregard my suggestions. If I did understand correctly, maybe my suggestions will help.

                              You have 6 mono tracks. You have a master 5.1 track, which does not show a waveform, btw. Track 1 should be left front, track 2 center, track 3 right front, track 4 left rear, track 5 right rear and track 6 LFE.

                              Why not use the audio mixer (the 5.1 panner) to position them accordingly?
                              • 12. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                Hunt.

                                To get a DTS stream onto your DVD-Video disc, you do not
                                i need
                                anything more than the DTS-Pro, or DTS-DVD encoder available on the SurCode website for around $500. That is really all you will need to create the required streams, and this will allow you to create the basic DTS Core stream at a maximum bitrate/resolution of 24/48 in 5.1 from the 6 mono WAV files your mix outputs. It will also allow the creation of a valid stream for a DTS-CD.
                                The final paragraph in the other post don't
                                i seem
                                to say anything different to me....so I am confused slightly. I was talking about one of 2 things (depending on what you consider to be the final paragraph) - one was the legality, where to create a spewc DVD the Audio Stream 1 must be either LPCM or Dolby Digital and DTS must be stream 2 or more, or else I was talking about all the extensions to the DTS streams, which is all very nice, but also not required for a DVD.

                                Premiere Pro - I have never yet run a 5.1 from PPro, so will have to go take a look at it and get back to you, as I create all my Audio streams using Nuendo - I have a plugin for the Dolby Digital & DTS encoding for rushes, and find it more convenient.
                                However, I do know that PPro will happily accept a 5.1 interleaved stream and encode this to 5.1 Dolby Digital with no problem at all. I have not, as yet, tried adding 6 mono WAV files and outputting to a DD file, but I will do this over the next couple of days & post back.

                                Hope this helps, if not - please post back.
                                • 13. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                  Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                                  Neil & Haarm,

                                  Thank you for your information and solutions. It appears that I just need to budget $500 for the SurCode DTS plug-in. I was hoping to hear that THAT is all that I need, and it appears so. I'd hate to plunk down the $, only to find that I also need a... and it'll cost $1500!

                                  To Haarm, yes, I did, as you suggest, and on the Timeline had nine, IIRC, Audio Tracks. 1 was empty (for audio attatched to the video clip, I suppose, but didn't have any, so it was blank), 2 & 3 were LF & RF, 4 was shown as 5.1 and also blank, 5 - 8 were LR, RR, C and LFE, (plus 9 Master) all allowed to be set in the "panning" function of the Audio Mixer. It is/was the #4 Track (5.1) that was empty and could not be mixed to. My guess is that this track could have contained a WMA, or already mixed 5.1 track, which I did not yet have. I did output the mix (in Audition) as a WMA and it did locate to track #4.

                                  Problem that I have is in the playback. L&R Front play great (solo), as does C. LFE is down by ~ -12db, but L&R Rear are down by ~ -30db, regardless of the levels set in the Audio Mixer, when solo. The sound card handles other 5.1 content perfectly, and the WMA file played all channels, just from the Audio Mixer control with the individual files, did I have the level problem. I'll work on that, and see where the atenuation comes from.

                                  I'll also go warm up the credit card and contact SurCode for the DTS module.

                                  Thanks for the thoughts and insights. Much appreciated. Dang, so very much to learn - hope I live long enough!

                                  Hunt
                                  • 14. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                    Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                                    One last (or I hope so) question, regarding the creation of the final DVD. I have the video as an Asset and a Timeline in Project panel. I would like to give the viewer the option of selecting the audio version, Dolby 5.1, Stereo composite, or DTS, that they will use upon playback. I've found a lot of Menu articles on multi-language selection at the start of playback, and would like a pointer or two, on the best setup for the multi-audio. Should I do a separate Timeline for each different Audio version, with how ever many Tracks are necessary, then do a Timeline Playlist for each version, with, say the no audio on the video Timeline and just link my Audio Menu to the different Timeline Playlists (Audio only), or is there a better setup for this? Or, do I need the Video on EACH of the different Audio Timelines? In this case, it's no big deal, as the Video is short, so three versions of it, plus applicable Audio should still easily fit on a DVD. Any advice from the wise ones?

                                    Thanks,
                                    Hunt
                                    • 15. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                      Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                      Bill.

                                      Your best option is a single timeline for each component, with multiple audio streams to allow for the different types.
                                      As an example, we shall assume the following scenario:
                                      Video Assets = 1 Movie, 3 different Audio streams.
                                      This should be turned into a timeline, and the audio tracks added as you prefer - with your preferred default audio as Audio 1.
                                      Convention is generally to place the stereo stream first, then the Dolby Digital 5.1, then the DTS 5.1 - unless your stereo is actually a downmix of the 5.1 and not a dedicated stream, in which case you only need 2 streams. IMHO, the more elegant option is a dedicated stereo stream as it is only 192Kb/sec after all.
                                      My reasoning here is that more users will have a stereo setup than a surround one.

                                      When linking the buttons, the way I always do this is to use the "specify link" option from the properties.
                                      For the stereo, point to the main video, Chapter 1 and specify the audio stream at the bottom left of the dialogue.
                                      It's all in the printed manual too - page 220-222 (I am away from Encore right now), but essentially you won't need to mess with playlists, or Chapter Playlists as you can easily create an "Audio Setup" menu, with all 3 streams as options, and set the link as above. I hope this makes sense to you. If not, drop me a line & ask me to explain myself! :)
                                      The DTS stream should be the third one as DTS is an optional format, whereas Dobly Dirgital is a mandated one.
                                      • 16. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                        Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                                        Neil,

                                        Thank you for the informative reply. I have to admit that your prose reads much more easily than does the manual. It is more Faulkneresque, than Hemingwayesque. I poured over the referenced section, but could not get a handle on what was required, exactly. Maybe spending all of my airline time with manuals for the entire Production Studio, plus several CIAB's has led to much confusion on my part. I have yet to get the new CIAB for Encore, but will soon. Too much data, too many questions! I realize that most of this is standard practice for most here, but I get lost, especially when the text assumes that one knows every convention, or when they only define a few terms, and assume that the users know what to do from there.

                                        One request for Adobe would be to have PDF's of the Help Files available from their Web site. I'll often find that I am on my laptop for hours, while a render, or burn, is taking place, and I'd love to do more research within the Help Files, but that machine is tied up.

                                        Again, thanks, and I'm sure that I'll have more "simple," or "simple-minded" questions.
                                        Hunt
                                        • 17. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                          Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                          Bill.
                                          ECIAB is available already, and so is Jeff Bellune's excellent tome:
                                          http://www.amazon.com/Focal-Easy-Guide-Adobe-Encore/dp/0240520041/sr=1-1/qid=1169650287/re f=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6174065-8080151?ie=UTF8&s=books
                                          for the latter, and
                                          http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Encore-DVD-Classroom-Book/dp/0321267958/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/1 02-6174065-8080151
                                          for the ECIB.

                                          Or better still, buy both together.
                                          • 18. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                            Hello Harm,

                                            You mentioned:

                                            > Be aware that Encore does not need the Surcode plug-in, but can only encode WAV files to AC3 in the 2.0 format, so if you import a 5.1 WAV file into Encore, your end result will be simple stereo.

                                            All I need is AC3 in the 2.0 format but I can't figure out how to do it with Adobe Premiere Pro and Encore CS3. Would you mind filling in the details.

                                            Thanks,

                                            Mark
                                            • 19. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                              Harm Millaard CommunityMVP
                                              Encore will automatically transcode WAV to AC3 (2.0).
                                              • 20. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                Community Member
                                                Hello Harm,

                                                I hope you can help me with a problem I've been struggling with ever since I received CS3.

                                                What high level process should I use to create a "full" DVD5 video? In Premiere I have several export options and you would think I should select "Export to Encore". The Export to Encore settings I used are as follows:

                                                - Single Layer DVD
                                                - Author with menus
                                                - Entire Sequence
                                                - Various video settings
                                                - Audio Format = PCM (the only Dolby setting here requires a purchase)
                                                - Multiplexing = DVD

                                                The problem I have is with the overall video sizing. Premiere limits the size of the video to a DVD5. Then when I build it with Encore, the video shrinks (I assume this is due to the auto application of Dolby Digital 2.0)? So my question is what sequence and settings should I select to create a DVD with the highest bit rate possible? Should I perform the transcoding in Premiere or Encore.

                                                Thank you for any help you can offer,

                                                Mark
                                                • 21. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                  Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                                  Mark.

                                                  Export from Premiere Pro as MS DV AVI, with PCM audio at 16 bits 48KHz.
                                                  Do not attempt manual transcoding.
                                                  Import the AVI file into Encore, along with the WAV file.
                                                  Create menu system, set Chapter Points etc.
                                                  Set the Transcoding to Automatic.
                                                  In Edit/Preferences, set the total combined Audio & Video bitrate to 7Mb/sec if using Sony type players, or if you are writing discs for wide distribution.
                                                  Set to maximum if replicating from DLT tapes, or if you know your player will not choke on the bitrate.

                                                  Encore (which has
                                                  i exactly
                                                  the same transcoding engine as Premiere Pro, will automatically set things up for the highest possible quality for your project.

                                                  (Although what this has to do with Surround Sound is completely beyond my understanding.....)
                                                  • 22. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                    Community Member
                                                    Neil,

                                                    First of all thank you for the reply. Earlier today when I was working on this issue I did export the movie from Premiere in the AVI format and then imported it into Encore. When I did however, Encore would not display the video until I transcoded it. In your suggested steps you mention creating the menu and setting the chapter points before transcoding. How do you view the video to set the chapter points before transcoding? What did I overlook?

                                                    Regards,

                                                    Mark
                                                    • 23. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                      Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                                      That's odd.
                                                      What settings did you use in the export please?
                                                      • 24. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                        Community Member
                                                        Neil,

                                                        I found my problem. I attempted to replace the previous MPG video with my new AVI video and Encore apparently wasn't able to figure out the change in video format. So I started over with a new menu, imported my AVI as a timeline, and was able to follow your advice and burn a full DVD.

                                                        Thank you for your help,

                                                        Mark
                                                        • 25. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                          x34 Community Member
                                                          Niel.

                                                          I too have a very similar question after reading your reply to a post in January. I followed your steps exactly, or it seems, and during preview, the pcm or wave file which is audio 1 always plays even though I selected the DTS button which is clearly linked to the main movie but displays that the audio is mapped to audio 2 which is the DTS track in the time line under the pcm audio 1 track.

                                                          Can you offer some input as to why this maybe be happening? I realize that Encore will not support playback of a DTS audio track in the preview mode but I certainly should not be hearing the pcm track when the button associate with audio track to is selected for play in the preview mode.

                                                          Appreciate your assistance when you see this request.

                                                          Jerry
                                                          • 26. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                            Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                                            Jerry.
                                                            As Encore does not support DTS except in passthrough mode, it is sort of obvious that you will get Audio #1 when previewing. This is because when a stream cannot be accessed, the preview engine (Being based on a real player) will revert back to a stream it can understand as the alternative would be a static noise that may damage equipment.

                                                            Try writing to an RW disc - I wager it will work as designed.
                                                            • 27. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                              x34 Community Member
                                                              Neil,

                                                              I did exactly that using a RW disk. I had neither Ls or Rs tracks decoded but L R C & Lfe seemed fine.

                                                              Not sure what is up with this. The DTS is filled with backward hash marks probably because of pass-thru mode but otherwise I am not sure why I got these results.

                                                              Thanks for any additional suggestions or pointer as to where to focus troubleshooting.
                                                              • 28. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                                Community Member
                                                                I can't believe that you have to pay so much money to use 5.1 surround sound. Other applications such as Avid Liquid 7 and Final Cut Pro provides 5.1 surround sound for FREE! The only stipulation is that you cannot advertise that the movie it Dolby Digital 5.1. Adobe you suck!
                                                                • 29. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                                  Jeff Bellune CommunityMVP
                                                                  >The only stipulation is that you cannot advertise that the movie it Dolby Digital 5.1.

                                                                  The Surcode plug-in for Premiere Pro allows such advertising, hence the price tag.

                                                                  If you can't understand why that's worth the money, then I'm sure Avid and Apple will be happy to take your money.

                                                                  And were the last 3 words of your post *really* necessary? They don't help advance your cause or add to your credibility at all.
                                                                  • 30. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                                    Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                                                    >Other applications such as Avid Liquid 7 and Final Cut Pro provides 5.1 surround sound for FREE! The only stipulation is that you cannot advertise that the movie it Dolby Digital 5.1.

                                                                    This is because the encoders they use are not certified for guaranteed stream compliance by Dolby Labs.
                                                                    Making them essentially pointless.
                                                                    The SurCode encoder for a pitifully miserable $285 in Premiere Pro is fully certified. This does also mean, if you want to use Dolby Logos, that you MUST submit the encoding in the form of a finished disc to Dolby Labs so they can be sure you have used their encoder correctly.

                                                                    I could paraphrase your final 3 words, ( not quoted here - you know the ones though) but that would be petty & childish....... :)
                                                                    • 31. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                                      Community Member
                                                                      Yes you guys are right, my last 3 words are childish, I was so excited to be able finally afford to purchase the new 17' Macbook Pro's and Production Premium to work with HDV. I have all of these tapes needing to be edited and I finally can do it and I find out that I have to pay more money that i don't have to do 5.1. Is there a way to do the 5.1 without being certified, hence not having to pay the extra money. I do not work in the professional video world nor do I sell my services. I film (video), photographer and edit strictly as an prosumer and for family and friends.

                                                                      Thanks guys for your help
                                                                      • 32. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                                        Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                                                        > Is there a way to do the 5.1 without being certified, hence not having to pay the extra money.

                                                                        Not reliably, no.
                                                                        You can always export out from Premiere as 6 mono WAV files, and use a hacked AC3 encoder.
                                                                        The stream cannot be guaranteed as DVD compliant though, so will it play on all DVD players? Unlikely in the extreme.
                                                                        Also, when mixing in 5.1 you need to learn all manner of rules.
                                                                        You also need a properly set up & calibrated monitoring system.
                                                                        What are you going to be mixing on?
                                                                        • 33. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                                          A hijacked thread that answered my questions!

                                                                          I'm trying to get my brain around the Adobe way of doing things or I can go back to Apple for about $700. Adobe's "help" menu doesn't go deep enough, so I searched here to find out if I really needed to pay another $300 to do surround DVDs like I've been doing for years. I understand the licensing thing and all, but I must admit - going back to Apple is looking better and better all the time. It was so much simpler - and my DVDs performed well. In the marketplace, this add-on cost is a bad idea, no matter what the rationale.

                                                                          I've been using old versions of Photoshop and Illustrator for years and love them, but when Adobe gets into audio and video, things start to get weird. Apple's stuff is much more streamlined.
                                                                          • 34. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                                            Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                                                                            Tim,

                                                                            As Neil points out, one can use a "hacked" version of the encoder, purchase the DD (certified) SurCode 5.1 Encoder from Minnetonka or go back to Apple. There might be other choices out there, but I have not heard them.

                                                                            I have to say that the SurCode plug-in (there DTS encoder is separate and a stand-alone app.) is worth every $. So good, in fact, that I bought another one for my laptop.

                                                                            BTW, as I mentioned, maybe here, or in another 5.1 thread, if one purchases the plug-in FROM within Premiere, it is ~ US$ 50 less, than on the Web site. Yes, it is extra, but at least there is a $50 'incentive" to buy it - just use your three (?) trial encodes, and when you do the fourth, follow the pop-up window to purchase it. Do not go directly to the Minnetonka site, or you'll pay full price.

                                                                            I do strongly agree that the F1, and manual, are not very helpful. The Premiere-pedia has much more helpful info on "5.1 Surround Sound," than any of the Adobe help sources, and best of all, this forum has Neil Wilkes, who knows everything you'd ever want to find out about DD 5.1 Surround Sound.

                                                                            See:
                                                                            http://www.adobe.com/ap/tips/prepsurround/page2.html
                                                                            http://premierepro.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:How_do_I_mix_surround_sound%3F
                                                                            and do a search of this and the Premiere forums. Read evey post by Neil. Last, Jeff Bellune's book, "Focal Easy Guide to Encore2," has a section on Surround Sound. I'd love to have seen Jeff expound a bit more on the subject, but coupled with the above sources, it fills in a few gaps. Though written for Encore2, all of the Surround Sound info, plus most of the rest of that book, work for CS3.

                                                                            If you think that a wonderful plug-in, like the SurCode 5.1 is a big deal, you need to purchase a copy of Pinnacle Studio. It comes complete with all sorts of extras. One catch, everything is watermarked - everything. You'll spend US$1000 turning ON all of the Effects, Transitions and Filters. Each one has to be purchased, to be used. Install Studio (don't know what ver. # it's up to now), and look at the Functional Content. You will see that nearly everything is "Locked." Also, there is tremendous overlap in each of the "extras" packages, meaning that most often when you buy a second, or third one, it will contain a bunch of Effects, or Transitions, that you have already bought. It's like getting a "Rolling Stones" album, only to find that 12 of the 15 songs appear on every other "Rolling Stones" album, that you own. You just paid $15 for 2 new songs. All the rest, well you already owned those! This is one of the reasons that music by-the-slice downloads are so popular. People got tired of being ripped-off by record companies padding every album with "crap," or material from previous releases.

                                                                            Ultimately, the choice is yours. If Apple does everything you want and you work it well, go for it. Other than to teach some Photoshop classes to the ASMP user's group, I've never touched an Apple anything. I hear that they make great computers and that a lot of their programs are wonderful. I cannot help you make your decision though, as I do not know any of their NLE programs, or their audio editing software.

                                                                            Good luck,

                                                                            Hunt
                                                                            • 35. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                                              Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                                                                              Going back, and reading all of the replies, I have one thing to add to this thread. Neil mentions prices for the DD 5.1 SurCode encoder from Minnetonka. Those prices have fallen by some $'s, obviously since Neil posted.

                                                                              Last time that I purchased a SurCode 5.1 plug-in, the regular price was US$300 (roughly half of the price, when Neil first posted), but if one purchased this plug-in from
                                                                              b WITHIN
                                                                              Premiere Pro (not going directly to the Minnetonka Web site), the price was US$249. Last one that I got was at this price, but it could have fallen a bit, since then. Note that there is no discount for multiple licenses, unlike some software. Since I was buying number 2 for my studio, I inquired about volume discounts, and was politely informed that the licensing fee from Dolby Labs was actually most of the cost of the product now, and that it was basically a "loss leader" for Minnetonka, especially if one buys through the Adobe "deal."

                                                                              Just wanted to update Neil's great recs. and comments, in case someone finds this thread years later. His advice is still good, but the prices have fallen since he first posted. Also, I wanted to make everyone aware, that to get the best price, you must follow the pop-up window from
                                                                              b WITHIN
                                                                              Premiere, and not just go to the Minnetonka site.

                                                                              Hunt
                                                                              • 36. Re: how do you do surround sound audio then?
                                                                                Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                                                                Thanks Bill.
                                                                                That's useful information.
                                                                                The cost that has dropped quite dramatically is the SurCode DTS encoder. The DTS-DVD version is now only $249 instead of the previous $499 and upwards.
                                                                                If you're tempted - and DTS is in almost every way superior in terms of sound quality compared to Dolby Digital for any music based projects (and IMHO it is better for film too) I would still recommend the SurCode DD encoder for Premiere Pro. The stand-alone Dolby Digital Encoder is a whopping $995 for the surround one, making the price for Premiere's version almost a steal.
                                                                                As far as I can tell, the price for the DD encoder is still unchanged.