20 Replies Latest reply: Mar 7, 2008 2:18 AM by Neil Wilkes RSS

    Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound

    x34 Community Member
      I am trying to add a DTS surround track to a sample DVD I am preparing for a client so that we can evaulate the effects that DTS might add to the final piece. The video and the DTS audio track are being brought together in Encore CS3.

      I do not have a PCM track on DVD just a DTS track and not aware that one is necessary just for this evaluation. The DVD is being played back on a system that plays studio releases encoded in DTS with no issues. I realise there are some difference in the two types of DVD but this verifies that the playback equipment is workihng normally. The settings in Encore are standard default settings for DTS audio.

      The DTS audio track in Encore is hashed which I assume is due to the fact that Encore is simply passing it through. I would like to know if this is a proper assumption or is Encore telling me that something is in error with the track.

      At this point I have no audio in the burned DVD but since there is no way to verify that the DTS is in tack (since Encore will not decode or perview it) is in fact properly encoded but I have no reason to believe it is not. I used Minnentonk's DTS for DVD to encode the audio track.

      Does anyone have a suggestion for me to at least test or monitor the encoded the DTS track to seee if it is OK?

      Thanks in advance for any assistance.
        • 1. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
          Joe Bowden Adobe Employee
          Normally, a DTS clip will not appear with hash marks in the timeline.

          There's something wrong with your DTS file. Where was it encoded?
          • 2. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
            Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
            kb242,

            You might want to place a PCM on the first Audio Track, and then, via Menu, allow selection of DTS. In NTSC DVD, I do not believe that DTS is part of the core specs., and is supported on equipment, such as you cite as an additional format. You can still do your test, but the Audio will need to be selected from a Menu.

            Hunt
            • 3. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
              x34 Community Member
              Minnekonta DTS DVD, is the source DTS encoder. Wave files are imported for each channel and the encoder takes care of the rest with a single DTS file extension for the audio track. This encoder is made especially for DVD authoring. Since my post, I did include the PCM audio track as track one with DTS on track two. Two buttons on the opening menu play the time video but are mapped to the two audio tracks, track 1 PCM, track 2 is DTS.

              When played back, the DVD the surround sound test receiver indicates that the input source is Digital 2/0 via the coaxial input. The same message is indicated regardless of which button mapped track I select.

              For that reason, I feel that perhaps the DTS track 2 is not being seen, I just cannot determine what I need to do.

              So the hash markings on the DTS track indicate an error for certain? Why would Encore even attempt to process it in that case?

              Studio movies used as a test play fine and play in 3/2/1 full DTS playback.

              I am running out of time and any suggestions would be much appreciated.

              Thanks
              • 4. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                Have you used the correct settings in the DTS Encoder?
                Can you please post exactly what you used?
                Also - what were your source files, what resolution, and how were they created?
                You cannot play the stream through Encore - it will not play it & will usually drop to stream #1. I am also wondering if you scrapped the entire project when you added the LPCM track, or just rejigged things?
                Try rebuilding from scratch - sometimes I have found the AL gets confused, and does not let go properly.

                The SurCode encoder is a very old one these days - and it also does DTS-CD which will result in something that looks like a stereo WAV file (it was *not* "made especially for DVD", but at the time it was new handled all 3 types of DTS encoding then available. It is dated, and the algorithm is now much enhanced since the DTS-PSE (now also obsolete) added DTS-ES and DTS 96/24 capabilities for DVD and the even better DTS-HD SAS/MAS encoders are now current. The quality is audibly better with these encoders.

                Bill is totally correct in his statement that you cannot - period - use DTS as Audio stream #1. This will fail replication as it will be out of spec. DTS is an optional stream, and Audio #1 must be either LPCM or AC3.

                As far as monitoring the DTS track, you would be able to do this if you have access to any of the following:
                1 - DTS Streamplayer as bundled with DTS-HD MAS. This also allows sync check with a quicktime video.
                2 - VLC Media Player should also play this back - it is a free download from http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ and again should be okay for sync check. The DTS decoding is hacked though - so be aware of this.
                3 - WinDVD
                4 - PowerDVD

                Needless to say, you must have a properly set up & configured Multichannel Audio card running under WDM drivers - MME will not give you what you need, and only the DTS Streamplayer will read from an ASIO only card.

                A final option would be to send me the file & I will decode it manually & check it here. I can attest to the fact Encore will correctly compile DTS streams - we have done it many, many times.
                • 5. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                  x34 Community Member
                  Neil,

                  Your information is very much appreciated and I can see some obvious mistakes from the very good and much appreciated comments from you and others.

                  As an update, I have taking your comments and carefully re-constructed the project accordingly and found that the hashed imported DTS tracks was in fact a signal there was an error. It turns out that the compiled DTS tracks must be in the CPT format not DTS format. When making this adjustment in the encoder then importing to the timeline the hash marks are gone and the disk does provide a properly prepared interface to the playback system.

                  Unfortunately, I seems to have run into a very odd situation that seems unrelated to the DTS issues previously reported. This has to do with multiple clips on the time line and a very odd condition of requiring a separate audio track for every clip that is so placed. Even though the audio tracks are encoded the same and are of the same type (PCM or CPT, respectively) they must be on a completely separate audio track or during final preparation, I consistently receive error 12004 unknown error.

                  In the past, I have placed many video and audio clips along the time line using only two tracks, one audio and one video and never had any issues but now for some very strange reason, I must place each audio track on a completely unoccupied track regardless if the track contains any audio for any chapter in the time line.

                  So, with two video clips on the timeline, using a single pcm audio track with each, the audio of chapter 1 video would be on audio track 1 but the audio of chapter 2 video MUST be on audio track 3!

                  I could not believe what I was seeing but I did this at least 5 times and each time the build process would fail just after the point where the status showed re building audio files was displayed whenever two audio clips occupied the same audio track EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE SEPARATED IN TIME BY THE CHAPTER LOCATIONS.

                  I am building one project now to see how this forced track arrangement will affect the DVD.

                  I have also encountered another error stating " a PGC error in untitled timeline" has occured at xx:xx:xx;x as the data rate is too high for the project. This has nothing to do with being low on project space to fit on a single layer DVD, as it has happened when I am using files that I have previously burned with Encore with NO errors on one that is only 50 minutes prepared for NTSC DVD.

                  It almost seems that Encore may need to be re-installed with all of this strange behavior. These problems began after I had successfully completed one DVD where the DTS and PCM files played perfectly in proper way and I was attempting to finally complete the project with all the final clips added.

                  Have you or anyone ever heard of such erratic performance with Encore. I have never experienced anythign like this.

                  Please let me know if this sound the least bit familiar.on the last three files attempts due to the data rate of the rate that is too high for the project
                  • 6. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                    Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                    VERY odd on the padded (.dts) streams not importing properly - that is well odd, and I will attempt to repro this today as I have used .dts before. The Compact format (.cpt) is the usual one used by Apple's DVDSP. It is also now the sole format handled by the DTS-HD MAS encoder type as well.
                    Odd.

                    The stacked clips issue.
                    This used to produce a sync error when transcoding to AC3.
                    I am going to hazard a guess (and again will try to repro) that the problem is caused by the stacking of the DTS streams in a timeline, and Encore is going to attempt to transcode that timeline & will fail.
                    This - if I can confirm it - is a nasty bug indeed.
                    Separate timelines are looking like the sole answer here. It's the best solution with DTS anyway, as having multiple clips on a timeline will cause a lodss of lock when playing back on any set top player, followed by clicks/pops and an almost certain loss of the first 2 seconds of audio playback whilst the player relocks on the stream.

                    Your solution will fail on playback - a player will be looking for the same audio content, and differing audio content will effectively make Encore encode each chapter to a separate VTS anyway.
                    • 7. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                      Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                      jkb242,

                      Thanks for the H/U on your problems. I just added the DTS CODEC plug-in, so have not done anything with it yet - but I have plans. I've had three Audio Tracks in some Projects, but no DTS, so I am following your trials and tribulations closely. In past instances, the Tracks were A1 - A3, with no glitches, though I usually do separate Timelines for my Chapters/Sequences, so I might not have run into it yet.

                      I appreciate your comments, as I am certain to learn from your experiences with DTS.

                      Also Neil,

                      I'll follow your suggestions, when you post back, as I always do, and will attempt to get the errors also, as soon as I have the DTS up and running on my system. Because of this thread, I had checked the Minnetonka site and saw that the DTS module was "on sale." I did pick up in your earlier post "why" it was likely on sale, but it should still work fine (fingers crossed), for what I plan on doing with it.

                      Hunt, following this thread closely...
                      • 8. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                        Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                        Bill.

                        It will work just fine. To be frank, unless you have access to the other 3 main encoders (not counting the Sonic & Sony ones in CineVision & Blu Print respectively) and can compare encodes side-by-side, you will never know the difference. It is subtle - although definitely audible - and is still a great improvement over Dolby Digital.
                        Main difference is that DD goes non directional at over 14KHz in 448kbps encodes, and at around 10 or 11KHz at 384kbps. In short, the 5 main channels are not all that discrete above these frequencies. I will try to find the actual spec reference here (may have terminology wrong - the gist is that you lose discreteness in the top end which is where all the detail is. Hence why DD often sounds muddy compared to DTS)
                        The main thing with DTS encoding is to remember the trick to getting best quality - always feed it with 24-bit source files. You don't need to dither down to 16 bits as
                        A - you are doing further processing, and
                        B - the encoders all accept 24-bit files for the greater dynamic range available. A 24-bit source will be much better than 16-bit.

                        The Minnetonka Boys make some great surround tools.
                        • 9. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                          Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                          Neil,

                          Thanks for the info. I appreciate the tip about 24-bit files too. I'll have to check my source files' settings for my first DTS project, and may have to go back a few mixes, as I think I did scale them down to 16-bit, but cannot recall.

                          Yes, I have noticed a "muddiness" to the AC3 5.1 files, and now understand what I was hearing, but did not have the right words to describe it. In my test Project, I am not dealing with live sound, but electronically/software created music. I was also being a bit heavy-handed with my mix, to try and separate it more, than I was getting. Probably have to go back to some original files and not be ham-fisted with my mix now, or it will sound like the early attempts at Quadraphonic mixing, that I still recall - some very bad stuff, but their hearts were in the right place...

                          Also, since this is a personal project, and not a commercial one, I have plenty of time to do it wrong a few times, just to learn. I really appreciate all of the hand-holding.

                          Cheers,
                          Hunt
                          • 10. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                            x34 Community Member
                            Neil and Bill,

                            Here is a bit of an update:

                            Removed and reinstalled Encore, then begin a new project using the same assets. It seems that all issues have been address but see below for a short report of each.

                            My ultimate goal was to produce a build that would include automatic recognition of the DTS track and play it where the playback equipment was DTS ready. I was unable to achieve that goal even with the other errors set aside. I think this issue is driven by some restriction in the compilation of the disk.

                            First, a studio movie with DTS track was inserted into the test DVD player to confirm that the digital encoder in the receiver, to which it is connected would indeed properly decode and prefer the DTS signal over the standard PCM signal. Confirmation of the 3/2/1 playback and decoding was observed.

                            When combinations of my original assets were burned to a RW test disk, where either cpt or dts audio tracks were always directly beneath the PCM track, my test decoder never pick up or played the DTS encoded signal. Each and every test resulted in playback of the PCM track and indicated same on the receiver.

                            Using the same assets again BUT with a menu as first play on which two buttons were placed, each pointing to chapter 1 with specific links to the appropriate audio, the decoder was then able to properly decode the DTS stream when the DTS button was selected.

                            This was the only way I was able to achieve DTS playback. There is apparently one step I may have missed in preparing the non-menu DVD in order for the DTS encoded track to be automatically picked up and played as opposed to the PCM track.

                            As for the annoying errors I reported, before removing and re-installing Encore, here is what was discovered:

                            The importing of dts audio files into the audio track no longer contained the hash marks in spite of the fact that cts files looked normal.

                            The excessive data rate error that consistently appeared during build stage has not appeared again.

                            The rogue 12004 error that occured when two audio clips occupied the same track, at different chapter location obviously, did not appear with two PCM tracks occupying the same track but DID occur when two adjacent cpt or dts clips shared the same track.

                            Moving one of the cpt or dts clips to separate track did not produce the error again. What that error actually was is still unknown and was apparently never flagged by Adobe as to root cause--other than "unknown"

                            In order to achieve my end goal of a disk that would cause automatic selection of the DTS track, without a menu, still eludes me. It seems that the only way to insure repeatable selection and playback of the DTS track, is via a menu to force audio track recognition.

                            I am anxious to hear from you and Bill regarding some comment as to a disk build process that may address this issue so that compilations will perform the way in which many have come to expect from the studio releases.

                            Thanks indeed for all comments and please provide input in the above areas as possible.
                            • 11. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                              Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                              jkb242,

                              Due to the specs. of NTSC DVD, I do not believe that one can burn a DTS "first" from Encore, i.e. you will have to have PCM as the main audio, and then, via Menu, selection of other Audio Tracks. Maybe Neil, or Jeff, can tell you a workaround to this situation. I do not feel that it is a limitation of Encore, but of the NTSC DVD spec.

                              I'm just glad that, via Menu, you are getting close to your intended DVD.

                              As for my test of DTS, I'm asking the folk in the Audition forum for direction on the "manufacture" of my Assets, and await the DTS plug-in. I will gladly report all of the suggested steps, and, hopefully, any success, that I have. In my case, I will have the Audio Track selection on the first Menu, but I have slightly different needs, than you do.

                              More to come, when the Project goes to DVD, which should be within the week.

                              Hunt
                              • 12. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                                Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                >My ultimate goal was to produce a build that would include automatic recognition of the DTS track and play it where the playback equipment was DTS ready. I was unable to achieve that goal even with the other errors set aside. I think this issue is driven by some restriction in the compilation of the disk

                                This is not possible.
                                DTS is an optional codec, and as such cannot be set to the main stream.
                                What you can try - but I would never recommend doing this - is to set up an autoplay option, where the default action of a hidden button set to Auto Activate plays stream #2 of the primary timeline. That is the best you can do. You cannot even tell a player to "prefer" 5.1 AC3 over stereo - regardless of format at all - unless the stereo is included in the 5.1 as a downmix. Example:
                                Stream #1 = LPCM Stereo
                                Stream #2 = AC3 5.1
                                Stream #3 = DTS 5.1
                                You can set a hidden button to go to whatever stream you like, but if you "force" stream 3 in an unsupported player, this will result in white noise at a reduced level. Reason being that DTS decoding is not required in any DVD player at all, and as such you have serious problems when trying to play in an unsupported player. What is it supposed to do?

                                Studio releases are always done in the same way - I know what I am talking about as I do this on a very regular basis. You cannot, repeat cannot force DTS.
                                >First, a studio movie with DTS track was inserted into the test DVD player to confirm that the digital encoder in the receiver, to which it is connected would indeed properly decode and prefer the DTS signal over the standard PCM signal. Confirmation of the 3/2/1 playback and decoding was observed.

                                I think you are mistaken. I would wager the 3/2.1 decoding you are observing here is in fact Dolby Digital, not DTS. The sole way to set an autoplay is either
                                A - Via use of GPRM/SPRM programming where certain conditions are checked, and if found to be true (or false) a certain action will follow. As it is not possible for a player to ever know if it can decode DTS or not, and it is further not possible for a disc to tell a player to look for a DTS decoder chip, or a DTS passthrough mode (a very commonly supported way where the stream is simply output as a bitstream to a suitable amplifier/decoder) this will certainly result in an illegal disc that cannot be replicated, or else you will fail & the player will - as is usual - default to Audio #1.
                                B - You must use Dolby Digital. This can be set as stream #1, and also as stream #2 and will decode in every player. It is a spec requirement.
                                I have never - in all my years - heard of any studio disc that autoplays a DTS stream.
                                Name that movie please - I believe you are mistaking a default AC3 5.1 stream for DTS.
                                • 13. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                                  Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                                  Neil,

                                  I have a few questions about DTS encoding, but they would be about steps prior to Encore, so they are not relevant here. The encoded files will eventually end up in Encore, but this is more about Exporting out of Audition, then bringing into Premiere to use both SurCode CODECs for 5.1 & DTS (Audio Tracks 2 & 3 in Encore). Where would be the best forum to post these? I'm thinking PP2, but would like your advice, before I mis-post.

                                  Thanks,
                                  Hunt
                                  • 14. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                                    x34 Community Member
                                    Neil,

                                    Thanks for the very good summary of the DVD restrictions. I think you are correct on the movie default to the Dolby AC3 3/2/1. I made an assumption that was indeed incorrect after reading your explanation.

                                    This is not the place for me to ask you this question but it has to do with our discussion previously in this little project I have volunteered to take on what I thought was to be a fairly easy task and even though I have learned in the process, I am still not there even with a menu solution to select the DTS or the LPCM track.

                                    I've done about 30 DVD projects in Encore, this of course being the first one that involved multiple audio tracks, with the others being fairly straight forward. I do not want to give up on this effort but I am really stuck and this did not appear to be that difficult.

                                    It's an first play menu with two buttons. Selecting one button plays the DTS audio track and the other button selects the LPCM audio track. The video is common to both at chapter 2 but there is a very short 20 second video with DTS audio at chapter 1. There is only one timeline for all tracks. The DTS track has two clips, a very short one followed by the full video.

                                    From my previous findings, I am unable to place two DTS clips on the same track. I get the 12004 error which I still do not understand. Therefore, my project with one time line has chapter 1 with DTS on track 2. Chapter 1 video is played only with the DTS audio so it is not played if the LPCM button is selected. At chapter 2, I have the LPCM on track 1 and the DTS audio of the full length video on track 3. Remember, track 2 has the chapter 1 DTS audio on track 2 which I cannot use for DTS at chapter 2.

                                    The link for the LPCM button has been specified as chapter 2. It plays fine.

                                    The link for DTS button has been specified as chapter 1 with an end action of chapter 2 A3. Obviously, I cannot monitor DTS on the PC so chapter 1 plays the correct video but no audio---that is fine. Then it moves to chapter 2 but plays not audio 3 (should be silent) but plays the LPCM track. This in essence is where I am stuck.

                                    Looking at the flow chart panel I noticed that it is not possible to create a path for each button back to the menu. This only happens for the LPCM button which links to chapter 2, the last chapter. The DTS button path shows chapter 1 A2 then shows no other elements or instructions beyond that. Only the LPCM path shows the menu then chapter 2 A1 then back to the menu. That also seems odd. That is why the end action of chapter 1 (the DTS button)is set to chapter 2 A3 but that does not work.

                                    I cannot attach a picture of the flow chart but I am sure you understand what I am describing about the flow chart.

                                    Can you help me take the right steps to accomplish what I am trying to do?

                                    Thanks Neil!
                                    • 15. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                                      x34 Community Member
                                      Neil,

                                      I am replying to my own message to tell you that I was indeed brain locked on a particular work flow of using one time line to do what I needed to do. I simply placed the DTS short clip on a separate time line to avoid the conflict with two DTS clips on the same track which actually ended up with a really simplified project that I have managed to turn into something more than it was.

                                      Ain't intuition wonderful--when you listed to it that is.

                                      Thanks again for your input on the other areas and all comments.
                                      • 16. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                                        x34 Community Member
                                        Bill,

                                        I made this a much bigger effort than it needed to be.

                                        The solution came with two time lines, one for the first intro DTS track with an end action to the next chapter where there was only one DTS track and one LPCM track and it worked flawlessly.

                                        As to widespread compatibility, that may be another issue but the work flow solution was two time lines. I had tried to time lines initially where each complete complication LPCM and DTS were on completely separate tracks--but that resulted in a 7GB disk. I simply never thought about just placing the shorter intro DTS piece on it's on time line with an end action back to the full length video wich now only contained one LPCM and one DTS track.

                                        Thanks for all you comments and suggestions.
                                        • 17. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                                          Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                          @jkb242

                                          Putting a DTS stream as a sole stream onto any timeline is out of spec, and will trigger errors with Eclipse at verification before replication.
                                          This is because any non-DTS player will *not* be able to decode it, and will give white noise. You must use AC3 or LPCM as Audio Stream #1 on any & every timeline.
                                          Unless I am mis-reading you.

                                          Another issue you are facing here (I believe, again unless I am reading you wrong) is that in any VTS, all timelines must have the same Audio content.
                                          This means that if you have timeline #1 with LPCM/DTS, all timelines in that VTS must also have LPCM/DTS.
                                          If you add a timeline with different audio options, spec states thi has to be placed int a separate VTS. Encore will (should?) do this automatically as part of it's abstraction layer.
                                          And if you jump V^TS groups without correctly scripting the SetSTN command (this is handled by Encore's AL again) then the player will always revert to Audio #1.
                                          Likewise, it will also revert to Audio #1 if it started out playing Audio #3 and moves to a timeline via an end action or a button link to another timeline that has no Audio #3 - it cannot play the one it is set to, so will (should) revert to the first stream instead.

                                          Because of this type of behaviour I prefer to script these sort of things - and we have been asking for this for years in Encore.
                                          • 18. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                                            Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                                            jkb242,

                                            Glad that it got sorted out. Maybe between you and Neil (and any others), I can get to where you are in your Project. I'm about to embark on my own DTS Project, and have learned a lot with your thread.

                                            Thanks for being my "advance" guard,
                                            Hunt
                                            • 19. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                                              x34 Community Member
                                              Neil,

                                              I would surely like to know more about the necessary scripting to which you refer. I must admit that the last code I wrote was extended basic far too many years ago.

                                              I have tested (not exhaustively) the first demo disk on two completely different DVD players, one connected to a surround system and one not. I am not sure you remember how the final layout was created but it seems to go against the standard. Time line 1 is DTS only selectable with a button on the main menu. This layout was actually a mistake as I had intended to place an LPCM clip on track 1 and the DTS on 2. I actually discovered that after testing but decided not to address it for the first pass. Time line 2 has LPCM on track 1 with DTS on 2. It plays exactly as was intended. Granted, if mass duplication was the final step, indeed there could be an issue. Thanks for pointing that out.

                                              Remember if you get a chance to point me to a reference on your comments, I shall appreciate it.
                                              • 20. Re: Having trouble with DTS encoded Sound
                                                Neil Wilkes CommunityMVP
                                                @jbk242

                                                Check your email.