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40. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
greenjumpyone Apr 10, 2009 1:58 PM (in response to John Joslin) -
41. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
greenjumpyone Apr 10, 2009 2:00 PM (in response to greenjumpyone)and I might add, trying to upload that image into the previous post was downright annoying.
First it errored, saying an unknown error occured, then it wouldn't take the html for the image ... what a pain
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42. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Kat Woman Apr 11, 2009 11:36 AM (in response to dave milbut) -
43. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Captiv8r Apr 11, 2009 12:55 PM (in response to Kat Woman)Hi Jolie
Adobe operates the user forums. The user forums are where most of the average users head if they need help. Now the average user will care less whether the forums run on NNTP, Java, Flash, Ajax, SPAM or Turkey as long as they can see where to post and get help with their issues. Agree?
Most of the dissatisfaction expressed in this thread has been voiced by an elite minority of the overall user base. Thinking about the atypical 80/20 rule that seems to be predominant in many discussions, let's say 20% of the users are answering 80% of the questions. (Personally, I think that ratio is skewed, and possibly closer to 97/3, but just for the sake of discussion here we will assume it's totally accurate.) So let's further assume that those same 20% worked exclusively via NNTP.
What you seem to be suggesting is that everyone that operated via NNTP (that elite 20%) all move on over to the freebie NNTP service you found. And that's fine if that's where you and others feel more comfortable.
I would suggest there is a fundamental flaw in your thinking. Assuming I've stated the issue properly, this would mean that the 20% user base (those answering 80% of the questions) would simply vanish from the Adobe forums. And I'm sure everyone that is angry about the loss of NNTP would probably be thinking something like: (darn straight! How Dare you take away our NNTP! You get what you deserve if we all leave in droves!).
Sure, you and others are totally free to abandon these forums and move on elsewhere. I might even suggest that on Adobe's side that they might be thinking something like (Fine! Move on if you like. After all, we are tired of hearing your complaints. If you will be happier elsewhere, that's where you should go. So please go, and be well in your pursuits.)
Let's assume you are 100% successful in coaxing the entire 20% of the expert user base to abandon ship here and move to the freebie NNTP. What would that really accomplish? I'm thinking you would find the new NNTP home eerily quiet, because you would end up with nothing but a group of Experts. The average users would be heading here to these forums and asking questions and looking for help. But the experts would be in their own quiet community with nobody to talk to but one another.
To me, there is a much larger question here that remains unanswered: Do you participate and answer questions only because in your workflow NNTP makes it easy? Or do you participate because you enjoy helping your fellow humans with software you are passionate about? Based on the outcry, I'm sensing the former applies to those most peeved about it.
Cheers... Rick
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44. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Mark A. Boyd Apr 11, 2009 2:34 PM (in response to Captiv8r)Captiv8r wrote:
To me, there is a much larger question here that remains unanswered: Do you participate and answer questions only because in your workflow NNTP makes it easy? Or do you participate because you enjoy helping your fellow humans with software you are passionate about? Based on the outcry, I'm sensing the former applies to those most peeved about it.
Speaking for myself, I participate(d) because (in no particular order):
- I learn quite a lot while helping others
- NNTP makes it easy
- I enjoy helping others
NNTP makes it easy to "Lurk" in newsgroups where I don't contribute, too. I learn quite a bit by reading messages every day in newsgroups - even when I don't have a particular question in mind.
I was going to abandon this forum, but I am seeing some real effort going toward improving the email system (THANKS JC!). If they can get that up to par, I may be able to find an acceptable compromise between NNTP and this Web interface. If they can't get the email system up to par - and they don't add the NNTP service that Jive supports, then I can't see myself spending much time here.
There is a gargantuan difference between NNTP and Jive Forums in the time required to read/post to 100s of messages.
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45. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Christopher Glaeser Apr 11, 2009 2:36 PM (in response to Kat Woman)> and have re-joined alt.graphics.photoshop
I just went there to look. It's cluttered with spam. Air Jordans on sale for cheap.
Best,
Christopher
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46. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
HerbVB Apr 11, 2009 3:05 PM (in response to Captiv8r)Captiv8r -
I think it's both more complicated and more of a problem than you posit.
I agree that almost 100% of the questions from people who need
assistance have come in, and will continue to come in, via the
website; and it doesn't really matter how well or poorly designed the
forum website is for the purpose of asking questions, as long as
someone unfamiliar with it can figure out how to get their question
asked.
The world at large does not use usenet newsgroups except occasionally
via google groups, and I think you're also correct in guessing that
usenet based NNTP-only alt. or comp. groups would end up being a bunch
of experts talking to each other - when they can get past the spam.
DEDICATED news servers, such as those run by Corel and Microsoft, and
once upon a time by Adobe, can and do get heavy traffic by all people,
because they're pointed to by the sponsers along with usually decent
instructions how to access them. See
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx
for an example.
Of course, MS ALSO has a web-based newsreader that's far superior to
the POS that Adobe has selected, and the MS groups are very easily
accessed - no registration or Logon is required. The MS newsgroups are
propagated to Usenet, Corel's are not. There are advantages and
disadvantages either way.
ANSWERING questions and providing support requires a completely
different approach than is needed for ASKING questions. The support
community, including both Adobe personnel and outsiders like myself,
shouldn't have to root around like pigs in slop to find topics that
are appropriate to our individual expertises. With NNTP access, all I
need to do is glance at my newsreader/email application, which is
always open, to see which forums of the limited list I support have
activity. A single click then lists all the new messages by subject,
and another click reads the message, with a reply being easy to make.
The email 'system' (which I'm using right now) is better than the
website for responders, but is awkward to set up and use. Because it's
email, separating out the adobe material just adds to more folders to
whateve personal email folders exist - whether all Adobe forum mail
goes into the same folder or a set of separate sub-folders.
- Herb
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47. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
JayJhabrix Apr 11, 2009 10:14 PM (in response to Captiv8r)Captiv8r...
You're getting the wrong end of the stick.... It's not about ego, it's about productivity.
Most of the experts who reply to Adobe forums are professionals involved in their own work and with their own workflows. NNTP is much faster and much clearer. (If you've ever used NNTP, you'ld realise that yourself.)
So, in effect, with the web forums only approach, they're having the same time to post less answers, plus they're having to break their workflow just to check for new topics plus the whole thing is taking much longer plus...
I know the difference very well because i basically frequest two forums:
1/ Dreamweaver - used to access by NNTP. A lot of activity. Web access very slow and unwieldy.
2/ Illustrator - used to access by Web. Much less activity and so not a problem
The Dreamweaver forum has far more activity than the Illustrator - accessing it by web is much slower... and more inefficient for a host of reasons. You can't mark threads you're interested in, you can't mark thread as read if you're not interested in them... etc., etc., etc.
So, when these guys say that they won't be here unless they can access by NNTP, they have a very valid reason.
Cheers...
JJ
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48. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
JayJhabrix Apr 11, 2009 10:18 PM (in response to Kat Woman)Jolie...
Do you have to register to post?
TIA,
JJ
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49. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
JayJhabrix Apr 11, 2009 10:36 PM (in response to JayJhabrix)Mmmm... seems not,,,, just posted a test there...
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50. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Captiv8r Apr 12, 2009 6:11 AM (in response to JayJhabrix)Hi JJ
I totally understand there is a perceived loss of productivity. I really don't feel I've got the wrong end of the stick.
I have used NNTP before. All of you will probably laugh when I say that my use of it was from inside Microsoft Outlook Express. I used to view the Microsoft Newsgroups there. And I've used my Thunderbird to view some of my Adobe forums that way. In both cases, I was having essentially the same viewing experience as I had with E-Mail. So long ago I switched to a method of working very similar to what the forums are now offering.
I suppose I could say that you have the wrong end of the stick because you seem to be under the belief that the only way participation may occur now is by the web.
jhabrix wrote:
So, in effect, with the web forums only approach...
I've subscribed to my forums of choice by E-Mail. I'm sure many of you disagree with me on this point. But to me a message is a message. If I'm reading newsgroups or E-Mail messages they look about the same. Sure there is that "loss of threading" bit that everyone is talking about. But I have to tell you that I personally don't see that as a real hardship. My messages flow into my E-Mail client. They are sorted into folders I've created to match the forum categories I am choosing to follow. I've worked that way for years. So immediately upon glancing at my E-Mail (which I'm already doing like 5 billion times a day anyway) I can tell if a post arrived and which forum category it was in. I glance at the message and can pretty much tell immediately whether it's a new post or a reply.
I know that there are a couple of hickeys to be worked out with replying by E-Mail. But once those are resolved there is no reason a person couldn't totally participate via E-Mail messages and never have to visit the web forums other than to initially set it all up.
Cheers... Rick
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51. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
JayJhabrix Apr 12, 2009 8:55 AM (in response to Captiv8r)Rick...
Some of what you say makes sense... but not all...
Using NGs (NNTP) is a completely different scene to using email. In the former, all subjects come down and you can select the ones you want to follow or browse through. Everything is compact and in one place...
Additionally, your mail box doesn't get clogged nor is your email id compromised.
There are a lot of other issues as well... BTW, i too use(d) OE
JJ
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52. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Christopher Glaeser Apr 12, 2009 10:47 AM (in response to Captiv8r)I have used NNTP before. All of you will probably laugh when I say that
my use of it was from inside Microsoft Outlook Express.
Why would anyone laugh? OE is a fine choice for reading NNTP user forums.
Best,
Christopher
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53. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Mark A. Boyd Apr 12, 2009 12:05 PM (in response to Christopher Glaeser)Christopher Glaeser wrote:
I have used NNTP before. All of you will probably laugh when I say that
my use of it was from inside Microsoft Outlook Express.
Why would anyone laugh? OE is a fine choice for reading NNTP user forums.
HAH!
Oops. That was supposed to go to alt.flames. Sorry about that.
Follow ups set...wait...where...how...
--
Mark A. Boyd
Keep-On-Learnin' :-) -
54. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Captiv8r Apr 12, 2009 5:35 PM (in response to JayJhabrix)Hi JJ
I'm not understanding some of what you said.
jhabrix wrote:
In the former, all subjects come down and you can select the ones you want to follow or browse through. Everything is compact and in one place...
Okay, but after Thunderbird does its sorting, all my posts are in one place. The folders I created for them to sort into. The messages aren't part of my general mail messages.
jhabrix wrote:
Additionally, your mail box doesn't get clogged nor is your email id compromised.
There are a lot of other issues as well... BTW, i too use(d) OE
JJ
I'm not sure why you feel mail is "clogged". Are you possibly really tight on disk space or something? I also have defined rules for each of these folders so they only retain a specific amount of data and don't eventually grow beyond capacity.
And the really confusing part here is how my E-Mail ID would be compromised. To my knowledge it isn't listed or known anywhere other than the Adobe server that sent it, no?
Cheers... Rick
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55. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Christopher Glaeser Apr 12, 2009 6:27 PM (in response to Captiv8r)I'm not sure why you feel mail is "clogged". Are you possibly really
tight on disk space or something? I also have defined rules for each of
these folders so they only retain a specific amount of data and don't
eventually grow beyond capacity.
I have six terabytes and space is not a problem. However, I monitor approximately 120 forums. I typically only skim through the headers and click on the ones that look interesting. Does using email require downloading the entire message? That seems like a lot of bandwidth just to read the headers.
Best,
Christopher
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56. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
JayJhabrix Apr 12, 2009 11:39 PM (in response to Captiv8r)Hi Rick...
Actually, what i meant were two aspects...
1/ In the email client (OE) you don't have to worry about folders, etc., unless you want to save certain messages for posterity. Each newsgroup has it's own folder. Watched mesages get highlighted and don't get deleted when the messages get compacted, cleaned up, etc. And, you can set it to get x number of headers and mark all or just the ones that interest you to download later.... etc., etc...
2/ In email mode, you could end up with hundreds, if not thousands of messages on your mail server... And there's no facility to mark threads for 'watched'. You'd have to go through them all...
Generally, while you can monitor these news forums by email, it's nowhere near as fast or hassle-free as monitoring via NNTP.
Cheers...
JJ
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57. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Mark A. Boyd Apr 13, 2009 10:12 AM (in response to JayJhabrix)jhabrix wrote:
2/ In email mode, you could end up with hundreds, if not thousands of messages on your mail server... And there's no facility to mark threads for 'watched'. You'd have to go through them all...
Generally, while you can monitor these news forums by email, it's nowhere near as fast or hassle-free as monitoring via NNTP.
I am starting to re-explore Opera. I hadn't set it up since retiring a computer years ago with the paid version of Opera on it.
Its email system takes some getting used to, but it does have a method to flag threads as follow/ignore. Of course, I can't test that with the Jive emails yet, but it seems to work well in some minor tests I've done so far.
BTW, Opera also has built-in newsreader, but I prefer a different program for that. Actually, I prefer using separate programs each for NNTP, email, and WWW, but I am exploring anyway.
Generally, while you can monitor these news forums by email, it's nowhere near as fast or hassle-free as monitoring via NNTP.
Agreed. I suspect that once/if they get the emails hammered into compliance, it will be easier, but still not hassle-free since you do have to create filters/folders, etc...
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58. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Christopher Glaeser Apr 13, 2009 12:36 PM (in response to Mark A. Boyd)but still not hassle-free since you do
have to create filters/folders, etc...
NNTP is much too fast and much too easy. Hassles are great. We all have way too much time on our hands and we need tedious tasks to fill our free time and give us a reason for living. I look forward to spending my time creating folders and filters, and when everything is working, I hope Adobe releases yet another forum so I can start over again.
Best,
Christopher
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59. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
D. McCahill Apr 13, 2009 1:17 PM (in response to Christopher Glaeser)Christopher Glaeser wrote:
I look forward to spending my time creating folders and filters, and when everything is working, I hope Adobe releases yet another forum so I can start over again.
Haven't you heard? Adobe is planning to upgrade the forums every 18 months, on the regular update schedule. Enjoy these until October 2010.
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60. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
ChivertonT Apr 15, 2009 1:56 AM (in response to Mark A. Boyd)email system takes some getting used to, but it does have a method to flag threads as follow/ignore. Of course, I can't test that with the Jive emails yet
It wont work, the headers needed to do this are missing, and in any case the message body has several pointless lines before the main content which make it a pain to use.
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61. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Mark A. Boyd Apr 15, 2009 11:32 AM (in response to ChivertonT)ChivertonT wrote:
email system takes some getting used to, but it does have a method to flag threads as follow/ignore. Of course, I can't test that with the Jive emails yet
It wont work, the headers needed to do this are missing, and in any case the message body has several pointless lines before the main content which make it a pain to use.
Yea, but they're working on that. The missing headers, I mean.
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62. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
ChivertonT Apr 16, 2009 1:18 AM (in response to Mark A. Boyd)Apperently so: http://forums.adobe.com/message/1894945#1894945
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63. Re: NO NNTP News Feed = A loss of a lot of helpful people.
Dierk Haasis Apr 16, 2009 2:02 AM (in response to ilssac)Bring back NNTP support. I don't care what loops some think I have to jump through to follow "my" boards, newsreader is the easiest way for me.





