20 Replies Latest reply: May 9, 2009 11:18 AM by Dov Isaacs RSS

    Text with Effects and Outlines

    malsup

      For some reason effects are not staying with text when I convert them to outlines in CS4. Can someone help?

        • 1. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
          P Spier CommunityMVP

          That's the way it works. To preserve the effects and create outlines, you need to do the conversion during transparency flattening. Create a custom flattener setting that includes convert text to outlines, then be sure there is some sort of transparent object on every page.

           

          BUT, I have to ask why you want to destroy the text by converting to outlines instead of embedding the font in a PDF?

           

          Peter

          • 2. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
            malsup Community Member

            When I embed the fonts sometimes the people on the other end still do not see the correct fonts. I'm not quite sure I understand you when you say transparency flattening. Can you explain that? Thanks

            • 3. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
              P Spier CommunityMVP

              If people on the other end don't see the correct fonts it means that they either aren't properly embedded, perhaps due to permissions issues (in which case you should be using a different font), or they are doing something really bad with your PDF, like putting it into Quark for imposition. If you have a full version of Acrobat (and maybe even in reader) you can look at the document properties and click on the fonts tab to view the fonts. If they are embedded, they will be labeled that way.

               

              All distilled PDFs and exported PDFs with Acrobat 4 compatibility "flatten" transparency. Transparency includes most effects as well as objects for which you have set the opacity to less than 100%, as well as many layered image files and imported graphics with transparent backgrounds. During the flattening process the interaction of the objects and the colors that are produced is analyzed and the object is broken into pieces to be treated in different ways depending on how complex the objects are and what needs to be done to produce the colors needed to simulate the transparent effect. Most of the time the goal is to maintain type as type, but it is possible to force InDesign to convert type to outlines during the flattening process.

               

              Edit > Transparency Flattener Presets... and click the "New" button, and I think it will be fairly self-explanatory.

               

              Peter

              • 4. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                Marvin Sable Community Member

                Select the text you want to convert with the text tool (Do Not Select the Text FRAME).

                Then, with text selected  TYPE>CreateOutlines

                 

                There are some things that will disappear, but paragraph rules, frame stroke, automatic bullets and numbering, drop shadow - to name a few - will survive the process. (I'm assuming your working with a small amount of type as opposed to a multipage document as I would never covert  a document of that kind to outlines, although as long as you select with the text tool this should even work for that..)

                 

                Try it and let me know which effects you're using and if it works for you.

                 

                Marvin

                • 5. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                  Bernie X Community Member

                  Use the PDF/x-1a export option.  It works well and flattens transparencies (uses PDF 1.3).  PDF 1.4 supports live transparencies, which doesn't work on PS printers.

                  • 6. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                    P Spier CommunityMVP

                    Bernie,

                     

                    Why do you insist on spreading such nonsense? Perhaps your own Postscript printer is out of date and can't properly flatten transparency, but that's hardly true in general, particularly with newer devices and RIP driven printers.

                     

                    There are some printers that use so-called dual-layer processing that rasterizes bitmap information differently from vector, and that can, indeed, show flattening artifacts such as color shifts in vector backgrounds around transparent objects, but this technology is rapidly losing favor.

                     

                    I would never advocate flattening a PDF before absolutely necessary. Unforunately, preserving effects like underline, bullets, and paragraph rules that disappear when converting type to outlines is one of those cases.

                     

                    Peter

                    • 7. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                      P Spier CommunityMVP

                      Marvin,

                       

                      The only reason bullets and rules survive using your technique is they are not selectable as part of the text. This might work, but the odds are good, I think, that if the printer can't handle live text he's going to have trouble with bullets and numbering, too. The custom flattener has been the method of choice for some time now when converting to outlines is required.

                       

                      Peter

                      • 8. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                        Bernie X Community Member

                        Check it out!

                         

                        http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/creativesuite/articles/cs3ip_transp_16.html -- "transparency must be flattened for PostScript print output".  Plus, I've got plenty personal experience to back this up.

                        • 9. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                          P Spier CommunityMVP

                          Perhaps I mis-spoke slightly, but the essence of what I said is correct. Flattening must occur at some point inthe print stream, but in general it is desirable to leave it to the last possible moment, for example in the RIP if possible (and the article you mention is quite clear that "most often your print service provider handles flattening."

                           

                          For devices that cannot do the flattening themselves, Acrobat is quite happy to do it at print time, just as InDesign will flatten at output.

                          • 10. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                            Bernie X Community Member

                            PS printers do not rip PDFs with live transparency correctly.  A particular effect are white fills on transparent images.  The doc states only certain versions of PDF will flatten.  Be certain that your jobs will print accurately, regardless of any printer.  My suggestions are correct.

                            • 11. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                              Marvin Sable Community Member

                              Peter,

                              I see your point on the bullets or numbers, but that would also apply to the "effects" the original poster was losing. None of the effects is selectable but they do survive the conversion.

                               

                              I just created a text frame with a 3 point black rule and a fill of 60% cyan, inner shadow and drop shadow, text with rule above and below and numbered list (No it isn't pretty) but it all survives when converting to outlines and is also visible in the exported PDF. I have always assumed the necessary  flattening occurs when exporting to PDF.

                               

                              Initially I had assumed (hoped) that an entire document wasn't being converted to outlines but rather an isolated section with effects.

                               

                              The technique is particularly useful (and the only way I know) when there are one or a few words in a text block that you want to convert to outlines to apply an effect to without applying it to the rest of the paragraph.

                              • 12. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                                Bernie X Community Member

                                Outer glow wont keep with outlines.

                                • 13. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                                  Eugene Tyson CommunityMVP

                                  Am I missing something?

                                   

                                  If I apply Effects>Text and convert to outlines it loses the effect.

                                   

                                  But if I apply Effects>Object and convert to outlines the effects stay. (you're going to get some loss or effect looking slightly different in outlines though)

                                   

                                  I don't have a problem with it. Forget about flattening and busting the printers and talk about postscript.

                                   

                                  Check out this post on how to export to pdf and convert outlines for your text while keeping bullets and underlines

                                   

                                  http://indesignsecrets.com/converting-text-to-outlines-the-right-way.php

                                  • 14. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                                    P Spier CommunityMVP

                                    Eugene,

                                     

                                    That's the flattening technique this all started with.

                                    • 15. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                                      Eugene Tyson CommunityMVP

                                      Sounds way too over-complicated for my liking

                                      • 16. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                                        Dov Isaacs Employee Hosts

                                        Mr. X.,

                                         

                                        It is true that PostScript as a language does not support transparency. On the other hand, PDF is never directly sent to a PostScript printer. Typically, it is sent to PostScript printers either by Adobe Acrobat (or Adobe Reader), both of which fully support flattening of transparency into PostScript's opaque imaging model. Alternatively, there are PDF workflow systems still based on PostScript that convert PDF to PostScript and also support flattening in the process. Of course, devices that directly render PDF, such as those that use the Adobe PDF Print Engine, should never be fed pre-flattened PDF!!!

                                         

                                        Unless one is utilizing a print service provider with either ancient versions of Acrobat (earlier than Acrobat 5.0) or PDF workflow systems that do not support PDF 1.4 or greater, there is no good reason for a print service provider to not accept PDF files with live transparency. (If your print service provider actually is using such outdated technology or is so uninformed, you should seriously reconsider who prints your jobs!)

                                         

                                        Note that there are many hazards in pre-flattening transparent content. Flattening assumes that you know the exact device resolution for the device on which your job will be printed as well as the final color space. Using the wrong flattening settings can easily lead to print artifacts such as stitching problems, pixelation, over-bolded text, etc.

                                         

                                                  - Dov

                                        • 17. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                                          Bernie X Community Member

                                          Here are some media kit that debunk your "theory".  They all prefer PDF/X files (two of the three specify PDF/X1-A, which is PDF 1.3). So, I guess that makes four of us doing something wrong...?  Here's what 10 years of print advertising has taught me -- abide by thy printer.  If PDF/X1-A works across the board, regardless of what your employer, Adobe, has published, then you go with some old wisdom...If it ain't broke then don't fix it.  Experience, evidence and common sense...'Nuff said.

                                          • 18. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                                            P Spier CommunityMVP

                                            Your third example is still queued, so I can't check, but the first two certainly don't require PDF/X1-a. They offer it as an acceptable option, but say that any properly prepared press-ready PDF is acceptable. The settings file offered by Penton for download does flatten your file, using their custom flattener settings, but does not adhere to any standard.

                                             

                                            Many publishers print specifications requesting PDF/X-1a files only because there are a lot of people submitting ads who don't know how to properly prepare a PDF for press, and because they still work with users of Quark Xpress which in early incarnations was notoriously bad at making a usable PDF file. Using the standard guarantees a usable file for the publication, but is not the only method, and certainly not always the best method, to do so. Whenever I've enquired, the production department at larger publications has confirmed that an unflattened PDF exported using the [Press Quality] preset is perfectly acceptable.

                                             

                                            I still often send ads as PDF/X-1a when I don't know anything about the printer and have no control -- in general the file can't get messed up any worse than it looks when it leaves my office, and it's just an ad, after all -- but I would NEVER do that with a job like a brochure or direct mail piece where I'm in control and know the printer and his capability to properly handle files with live transparency, nor would I convert text to outlines except in extremely rare cases, as for sign work produced on a cutting plotter.

                                             

                                            Peter

                                            • 19. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                                              Bernie X Community Member

                                              Pete...you're putting word in my mouth....the 3 pubs all specify PDF/X and two prefer PDF/X-1a, nothing required.  I had problems with Sleep Review with PDF 1.4, so I've stuck with 1.3 -- their recommendations (they've probably got those naughty PS printers).  I send everything as PDF/X1-a with great certainty and 100% accuracy.  For my newspaper, my printer has given me a custom PDF preset.

                                              • 20. Re: Text with Effects and Outlines
                                                Dov Isaacs Employee Hosts

                                                We do agree about use of PDF/X. The question is which PDF/X?

                                                 

                                                For highest reliability for printing from InDesign and Illustrator, PDF/X-4 is definitely the way to go.

                                                 

                                                In terms of "if it ain't broke then don't fix it," workflows in which explicit or implicit live transparency are used are definitely broken with PDF/X-1a and PDF/X-3. Why do think ISO TC130 convened to prepare and approve the PDF/X-4 standard which provides for live transparency and color management? It wasn't because there wasn't a problem. At Adobe we were hearing quite a bit from printers and designers that PDF/X-1a and any other workflow in which PDF transparency was flattened prior to the final RIP process was fundamentally unreliable.

                                                 

                                                (PDF/X-1a-based workflows worked very well for original content without any transparency and that was totally designed for a particular CMYK print condition. Most designers today use transparency implicitly - such as when using drop shadows or masked images - if not explicitly and most photography comes in as color managed RGB. Furthermore, most designers and advertisers have no idea what the final print conditions will be including color space and device resolution!)

                                                 

                                                That is why Adobe (1) initiated and participated very actively in the PDF/X-4 (and PDF/X-4p and PDFX-5) standards development, (2) provided support for the final, approved PDF/X-4 specification in InDesign 6 for PDF export, Illustrator 14 save as PDF, Photoshop 11 save as PDF, and Acrobat 9 (many functions including preflight, color management, etc.), and (3) developed the Adobe PDF Print Engine technology to replace use of "conversion to PostScript" for printing PDF.

                                                 

                                                Yes, we are aware that many publications and print service providers are still in the late 1990s in terms of technologies and standards, but we are seeing rapid change as many publications such as Hearst Magazines and large printers such as Quebecor World move towards and begin encouraging PDF/X-4 to improve workflow reliability and print quality while lowering costs.

                                                 

                                                The Luddites will continue their mantra "if it ain't broke don't fix it" while those who aren't in denial will move forward and stay in business with improved and more reliable workflows.

                                                 

                                                          - Dov