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1. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
John Joslin May 11, 2009 1:35 AM (in response to sfjedi)No.
Why do you want to do this?
I'm sure there are ways in Photoshop to achieve the results you are looking for.
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2. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
Mylenium May 11, 2009 1:39 AM (in response to sfjedi)Scripts are run from the file menu or via palettes. Any script that registers its name correctly on startup in theory can be assigned a shortcut and a menu item, but it is rarely done. A lot of stuff is done via actions, so familiarize yourself with the conceptual differences. Menu layouts can be changed, but you can just hide stuff or make it visible, not move it around.
Mylenium
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3. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 1:57 AM (in response to John Joslin)John Joslin wrote:
No.
Why do you want to do this?
I want to do this because I come from a Corel PHOTO-PAINT background and find it very difficult to transition into Photoshop because I am used to using certain menu bar commands that are either:
- Not available in Photoshop, period.
- Available, but arranged in a different menu list.
- Available, but not able to be mapped to the same keyboard shortcut because of restrictions built into PS.
I'm sure there are ways in Photoshop to achieve the results you are looking for.
I really don't think there are, but I appreciate your optimism.
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4. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 1:59 AM (in response to Mylenium)I'm aware of all the features you mentioned, but unfortunately all of them fall short of what I'm trying to do, which is, essentially, trying to create a workspace within Photoshop that mimicks Corel PHOTO-PAINT exactly. All the menus in the same place, all the keyboard shortcuts the same, etc.
If I had this workspace my life would be so much easier and I might actually consider using Photoshop over Corel PHOTO-PAINT in my day-to-day use.
As it stands today though, it's just not intuitive enough for my needs.
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5. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
John Joslin May 11, 2009 2:04 AM (in response to sfjedi)sfjedi wrote:
I'm aware of all the features you mentioned, but unfortunately all of them fall short of what I'm trying to do, which is, essentially, trying to create a workspace within Photoshop that mimicks Corel PHOTO-PAINT exactly. All the menus in the same place, all the keyboard shortcuts the same, etc.
I know how you feel – I had a helluva job getting my Ferrari to look and drive like a Ford.
(Well, I'm used to Fords.)
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6. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 3:02 AM (in response to John Joslin)John Joslin wrote:
I know how you feel – I had a helluva job getting my Ferrari to look and drive like a Ford.
I appreciate the sarcasm, but it's not a great analogy. For example, imagine, instead, that your Ferrari had no seat adjustment at all! Or maybe it has a seat adjustment, but you have to open your trunk to access the control.
Let me ask you a question: What makes more sense, logically, to merge a layer with the background?
The Photoshop method?
- Layer >> Arrange >> Send to Back (Shift+Ctrl+[)
- If the background doesn't exist, Layer >> New >> Background From Layer, or if it does exist, Layer >> Merge Down (Ctrl+E).
Or the Corel PHOTO-PAINT method?
- Object >> Combine >> Combine Objects With Background (Ctrl+DnArrow)
As you can see, the PHOTO-PAINT method requires only one command. Furthermore, it doesn't require any logic at all. You don't have to check to see if the background already exists and use a completely different command if it does!
You just went into your trunk to adjust your seat control.
Now, understand this. I'm in the process now of creating an Action within Photoshop that does this for me and I can't program logic into the Action so I'm currently trying to figure out how to do it in a script. Even if I figure out a way to do it though, I still can't bind it to the keyboard shortcut to which I want to bind it.
- Layer >> Arrange >> Send to Back (Shift+Ctrl+[)
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7. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
John Joslin May 11, 2009 3:33 AM (in response to sfjedi)Select both layers then merge visible.
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8. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 4:22 AM (in response to John Joslin)John Joslin wrote:
Select both layers then merge visible.
But that only merges the visible layers, not the selected layers. And it still can't be mapped to Ctrl+DnArrow.
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10. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 5:08 AM (in response to John Joslin)Yeah? And what if there's no existing background? Your solution woudn't work.
Any solution you give me will be more than 1 step, which means it will be more inefficient than "that other program."
I realize you're just trying to help, but at the end of the day, the answer is that Photoshop can't do it. That's why I'm going to post in the feature request forum again and be more specific about this request.
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11. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
D Fosse-QDEaQ1 May 11, 2009 6:48 AM (in response to sfjedi)What's your point, Jed? You don't want to merge a layer with the background, not unless you've thought about it long and hard. It's destructive; you're losing information. You can't go back. If you want to treat them as one layer, group them.
The emphasis in Photoshop development these days is non-destructive / re-editable. So this is one feature request that is not going to get top priority.
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12. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
harry teasley May 11, 2009 8:09 AM (in response to sfjedi)Select all the layers including the background, and hit ctrl-shift-e: all your selected layers will get merged into the background, with the original layers deleted.
Or ctrl-alt-shift-e will make a new layer that is a merge of all your selected layers, with the originals being retained.
The flexibility, the power,... it's... it's overwhelming.
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13. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
Mylenium May 11, 2009 10:08 AM (in response to harry teasley)Jed, just get used to how PS handles stuff. If you want, there are some combos for selecting layers (I never use them, so look them up in the online help) and then all that merging/ flattening may be more accessible to you. I know this sounds weird from your point of view, but actually Photo Paint's way of dealing with that part strikes me even as dangerous. From your description it sounds way too easy to accidentally merge something...
Mylenium
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14. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 12:31 PM (in response to D Fosse-QDEaQ1)D Fosse wrote:
What's your point, Jed? You don't want to merge a layer with the background, not unless you've thought about it long and hard. It's destructive; you're losing information. You can't go back. If you want to treat them as one layer, group them.
This is a ridiculous argument! By that logic, PS should FORCE us to group them and nothing more!
Absolutely ridiculous!
Of course I've thought about it long and hard. I realize it's destructive. That's exactly what I want! I don't want 281 layers, because that's exactly what I would have if I was as ridiculous as you.
The emphasis in Photoshop development these days is non-destructive / re-editable. So this is one feature request that is not going to get top priority.
I honestly don't care if it gets "top priority." I just want some acknowledgement that it would be given ANY priority. I would be happy with that.
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15. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
Gyno-jiz May 11, 2009 12:37 PM (in response to sfjedi)Jed:
You should get your feedback in now. CS5 will suppoosedly come with a layer management overhaul:
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16. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 12:40 PM (in response to harry teasley)harry teasley wrote:
Select all the layers including the background, and hit ctrl-shift-e: all your selected layers will get merged into the background, with the original layers deleted.
Ctrl+Shift+E merges "visible" layers, not "selected" layers. I tried what you said just now and my entire document was flattened, even though I only had two of the layers, along with the background, selected.
Or ctrl-alt-shift-e will make a new layer that is a merge of all your selected layers, with the originals being retained.
Once again, a workaround that doesn't actually accomplish the goal. After doing this step I would still have to reselect all of the layers that I previously had selected and delete them.
The flexibility, the power,... it's... it's overwhelming.
The constraint, the resistance, the weakness,... it's... nauseating.
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17. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
Zeno Bokor May 11, 2009 12:41 PM (in response to sfjedi)its Ctrl+E to merge the selected layers
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18. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
harry teasley May 11, 2009 12:42 PM (in response to sfjedi)sfjedi wrote:
I honestly don't care if it gets "top priority." I just want some acknowledgement that it would be given ANY priority. I would be happy with that.
How about acknowledgement that you can already do what you want?
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19. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 12:52 PM (in response to harry teasley)harry teasley wrote:
How about acknowledgement that you can already do what you want?
If I could then I wouldn't be causing a fuss about it. Even Ctrl+E falls short because what if there is no background? How then would I merge the selected layers with the background if the background didn't exist? Layer >> New >> Background From Layer doesn't even work when you have multiple objects selected.
Apparently, it can't be done in Photoshop, so stop apologizing for its weaknesses and accept the facts.
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20. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 12:54 PM (in response to Gyno-jiz)J Maloney wrote:
You should get your feedback in now. CS5 will suppoosedly come with a layer management overhaul:
Thanks. I just submitted my comment. There are some great ideas on that link.
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21. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
Zeno Bokor May 11, 2009 12:54 PM (in response to sfjedi)why do you need a background layer in the first place?
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22. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
harry teasley May 11, 2009 12:59 PM (in response to sfjedi)There are all manner of combining layers options. There is a "Background from Layer" command, if there is no background to the image. So an action that does "ctrl-alt-shift-e, layer > new > background from layer" would do the trick, for those images where a background doesn't exist.
For those where it does exist, ctrl-shift-e works right away.
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23. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 1:11 PM (in response to Zeno Bokor)Zeno Bokor wrote:
why do you need a background layer in the first place?
For this very reason. So I can merge selected layers with it in one step and create layers from it just as easily.
And it's not a Background layer, it's a Background... period. They don't call it a layer for a reason; though, it's in the layers panel.
If you don't think the Background is important and should be removed for some reason, please... I'm all ears. But PS has a Background, so they've obviously seen an important reason for it as well; though, I don't know why THEY use it, seeing as you can't do these types of things with it in an easy way.
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24. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 1:15 PM (in response to harry teasley)harry teasley wrote:
There are all manner of combining layers options. There is a "Background from Layer" command, if there is no background to the image. So an action that does "ctrl-alt-shift-e, layer > new > background from layer" would do the trick, for those images where a background doesn't exist.
For those where it does exist, ctrl-shift-e works right away.
Do you actually TRY these steps before polluting the forum with garbage? Because it's totall and utter BS! It doesn't work! Try creating that action and performing it with no Background in your document. It's not going to work. Trust me, unlike you, I've tried it, even before posting this discussion.
Furthermore, your method leaves the original layers in the document, which then need to be deleted, JUST like I said previously. Nothing new here.
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25. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 1:19 PM (in response to Mylenium)Mylenium wrote:
Jed, just get used to how PS handles stuff.
If Adobe took this attitude, then they would never implement new features.
I know this sounds weird from your point of view, but actually Photo Paint's way of dealing with that part strikes me even as dangerous. From your description it sounds way too easy to accidentally merge something...
Yes it *is* too easy! That's why I love it!
I don't know why you guys are always so concerned with "accidentally" doing this or "accidentally" doing that. Did you know there was an Undo command? That's what it's for! Accidents!
That's not the only thing it's for, but you get the idea.
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26. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
John Joslin May 11, 2009 1:25 PM (in response to sfjedi)sfjedi wrote:
I don't know why you guys are always so concerned with "accidentally" doing this or "accidentally" doing that. Did you know there was an Undo command? That's what it's for! Accidents!
Sometimes it's too late. You'll learn!
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27. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 1:27 PM (in response to John Joslin)Are you saying that PS sometimes doesn't let you Undo? Because that would be embarrassing!
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28. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
Ozzwoman9 May 11, 2009 1:27 PM (in response to sfjedi)I don't know why you guys are always so concerned with "accidentally" doing this or "accidentally" doing that. Did you know there was an Undo command? That's what it's for! Accidents!
I take it you haven't been using PS for too long? I mean seriously you flatten all your images, then what...save as a jpg or something? Then your client comes to you and asks you to change something, you realize how much of a pain in the *** that's going to be with everything flattened? Why don't you try your command + Z then and let us know how that works for you.
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29. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
Gyno-jiz May 11, 2009 1:28 PM (in response to sfjedi)I don't know why you guys are always so concerned with "accidentally" doing this or "accidentally" doing that. Did you know there was an Undo command? That's what it's for! Accidents!
I find in my own work, and life, that it's much easier to rationalize a bad choice if it takes some undoing.
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30. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
Zeno Bokor May 11, 2009 1:45 PM (in response to sfjedi)you can use any layer as a background for your artwork, just put it at the bottom of the stack and optionally lock it and you're done. Why do you care why they call it that? you use the tools available the way you want to, not the way Adobe intended them to work so tell me, why do you have to have a Background layer? just because there's a Sharpening Tool available that has been made so that you can selectively "sharpen" your image doesn't mean that you have to use that crappy tool
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31. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
PeterK.. May 11, 2009 2:19 PM (in response to sfjedi)If I could then I wouldn't be causing a fuss about it. Even Ctrl+E falls short because what if there is no background? How then would I merge the selected layers with the background if the background didn't exist? Layer >> New >> Background From Layer doesn't even work when you have multiple objects selected.
Apparently, it can't be done in Photoshop, so stop apologizing for its weaknesses and accept the facts.
What is it you are trying to accomplish and what is your definition of a "background?" Any selected layers, background or not, can be merged together with ctrl-e. If there's no background, meaning nothing underneath your selected layers, what is it you want there to be when you do your merge? If there is no background of any sort, I would assume it's that way for a reason, so why do you need to introduce a background where none exists when you merge selected layers?
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32. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
harry teasley May 11, 2009 2:30 PM (in response to sfjedi)sfjedi wrote:
Do you actually TRY these steps before polluting the forum with garbage? Because it's totall and utter BS! It doesn't work! Try creating that action and performing it with no Background in your document. It's not going to work. Trust me, unlike you, I've tried it, even before posting this discussion.
Furthermore, your method leaves the original layers in the document, which then need to be deleted, JUST like I said previously. Nothing new here.
I just did it just now: you're right, ctrl-alt-shift-e is the wrong thing for the general case, that does all visible layers. You want just ctrl-e for just the selected layers: my most abased, abject apologies for scripting off the top of my head, and getting my key combo wrong. With that change, the action works beautifully. I can send it to you, if you wish.
I think the thrust here is that PS is a different app than Corel Paint, and you probably need to put up with some differences.
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33. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 4:49 PM (in response to PeterK..)PeterK.. wrote:
What is it you are trying to accomplish and what is your definition of a "background?" Any selected layers, background or not, can be merged together with ctrl-e. If there's no background, meaning nothing underneath your selected layers, what is it you want there to be when you do your merge? If there is no background of any sort, I would assume it's that way for a reason, so why do you need to introduce a background where none exists when you merge selected layers?
I didn't make this up! Photoshop calls it a Background, folks. Not me. I don't care what they call it either. The only thing I care about is that I can merge layers and send them to the back, which can't be done if the background already exists, because the background is always behind any layers that were sent to the back.
For the umpteenth time, this is what I'm "trying to accomplish," a simple, single command that would merge the layer or layers that I have selected with the background! If the background exists already, merge it with the background, but if it doesn't already exist make a new background out of the selected layers.
A background is "different" from traditional layers in the respect that it is ALWAYS in the background. It can't be moved in front of other layers, which is the intended purpose of the background. This is how Adobe built it! This is how it's INTENDED to be used. It's INTENDED that sending any layers "to the back" will STILL be in front of the background.
Every time you open a jpg or create a new file you have a Background in the layers panel. I don't understand why you guys have never seen this before. If you rename the background, it becomes a layer just like the rest of them.
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34. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 5:05 PM (in response to harry teasley)harry teasley wrote:
I just did it just now: you're right, ctrl-alt-shift-e is the wrong thing for the general case, that does all visible layers. You want just ctrl-e for just the selected layers: my most abased, abject apologies for scripting off the top of my head, and getting my key combo wrong. With that change, the action works beautifully. I can send it to you, if you wish.
It's not just your key combo that's wrong.
Unless you can create conditionals within actions, which I've tried researching to find only that ImageReady can handle this for Actions, then there's no way this particular command can be performed. You NEED conditionals.Here's why – this is the logical path it would have to take (pseudocode):
if the background exists then
Ctrl+select the background
Merge Layers
else
if selected layers > 1 then
Merge Layers
Layer >> New >> Background From Layer
I think the thrust here is that PS is a different app than Corel Paint, and you probably need to put up with some differences.
I do put up with many of its differences. The only time I cause a fuss is when the "difference" is less efficient in Photoshop. By all means, if you can think of a way to do what I'm trying to do in fewer steps, I'd be more than happy to follow your path, but nothing you have here is more efficient than what I propose.
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35. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
Gyno-jiz May 11, 2009 5:33 PM (in response to sfjedi)I do put up with many of its differences. The only time I cause a fuss is when the "difference" is less efficient in Photoshop. By all means, if you can think of a way to do what I'm trying to do in fewer steps, I'd be more than happy to follow your path, but nothing you have here is more efficient than what I propose.
Jed
You've got your answer: ctrl-e, then crtl-shift-[.
Everything can be couched in terms of efficiency. It's like money.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to include the background in your merge, which is what a lot of us are wondering. If you'd like to make this actionable then take a simple quick step on the image. You (the efficient one) make a decision as to whether a background exists, and if it does, make it a layer. Or get someone to code you an script.
I'm with you when it comes to the background layer being a logical decision PS has to make. I've built my share of actions that created a new layer before flattening just in case the processed doc has nothing to flatten.
Good luck.
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36. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
harry teasley May 11, 2009 5:36 PM (in response to sfjedi)Jed, please read my original post. The action can cover the situation when a background does not exist. When one does exist, select it along with the layers you want to merge, and ctrl-shift-e will do what you want.
Of all the requests you've made, most are passionately made, about what amount, to my eyes, to be really specific, really inconsequential features. When have I been desperate to merge a bunch of layers to the background? Never. Never in my many years of using PS.
Does that mean much? Not a ton. But I do a lot of stuff with PS, and I do a lot of layer merging, just not with an obsessive need for that merging to be done to the background layer. Ctrl-e, ctrl-shift-e, and ctrl-alt-shift-e have always sufficed. I can readily see that of all the things that can and should be done to improve layer management, that this "merge selected to background, and make a background if one isn't there" request is, well, not something that the user base is burning to have.
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37. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 5:40 PM (in response to Gyno-jiz)You can't possibly understand how productive this can be unless you have relied on it for so long (myself, 15 years). I literally use this command ALL the freakin' TIME!
It seems trivial, but PS's 7 logical steps (conditionals, etc.) vs. PP's 1 logical step is a huge difference!
I can write the script myself, but I can't bind it to Ctrl+dnArrow, so it doesn't really matter, does it?
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38. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
sfjedi May 11, 2009 5:43 PM (in response to harry teasley)Harry, can I look at your action and try it out? Jed dot hunsaker at gmail dot com.
Thanks.
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39. Re: Menu Bar Command Customization
harry teasley May 11, 2009 5:51 PM (in response to sfjedi)sfjedi wrote:
I can write the script myself, but I can't bind it to Ctrl+dnArrow, so it doesn't really matter, does it?
This further indicates to me that all you are really after is the Corel Paint UI in Photoshop. It's not about greater efficiency, it's about habituation to one app. What you think is amazingly inefficient, is something that I do with some key commands that is so instinctive that I can barely articulate what the process is: it's no longer in my brain. I think the palmar digital nerves of the median nerve have set up their own Photoshop knowledge base within my wrist, and they make my hands do things.
I'm not saying one UI is superior. I'm saying I'm sure I would be very frustrated with many aspects of the Corel Paint UI, and would find it inefficient. So: be a mensch. Learn the PS shortcuts.







