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1. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
John Joslin May 14, 2009 4:58 AM (in response to sfjedi)You are under the delusion that they stole the idea from Corel I presume.
I'm sure there are forums where people can discuss the history of different graphics programs but this isn't one of them.
Take your childish avatar and go and play on the street.
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2. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
sfjedi May 14, 2009 5:05 AM (in response to John Joslin)See, that's the problem with people like you (and you're not alone). You just ASSUME that Photoshop invented everything, but it's so far from the truth.
All you can do is accuse me of being dillusional with no evidence whatsoever.
Tell me then, what is the purpose of this forum, if not to discuss Adobe Photoshop for Windows?
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3. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Q Photo May 14, 2009 5:19 AM (in response to sfjedi)What is the purpose of this forum? The answer is to find the best, most efficient ways to use Photoshop. And we don't care what Adobe "invented". It has no bearing on how we use the program. And John is correct, your avatar is not cool in any way.
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4. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
John Joslin May 14, 2009 5:25 AM (in response to sfjedi)sfjedi wrote:
See, that's the problem with people like you (and you're not alone). You just ASSUME that Photoshop invented everything, but it's so far from the truth.
All you can do is accuse me of being dillusional with no evidence whatsoever.
Tell me then, what is the purpose of this forum, if not to discuss Adobe Photoshop for Windows?
Not worth composing a reply.
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5. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
sfjedi May 14, 2009 5:26 AM (in response to Q Photo)You guys are funny. Are you even Americans? Why can't you accept the fact that other people aren't in love with the same software as you? It's like telling someone who's Christian to stop wearing a cross.
And where is the description of this forum that defines what can and cannot be discussed, as long as it's concerning Adobe Photoshop? I don't care about your personal opinion as to the scope of the forum so much as what Adobe's intention of the forum was.
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6. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
John Joslin May 14, 2009 5:27 AM (in response to sfjedi)sfjedi wrote:
You guys are funny. Are you even Americans? Why can't you accept the fact that other people aren't in love with the same software as you? It's like telling someone who's Christian to stop wearing a cross.
And where is the description of this forum that defines what can and cannot be discussed, as long as it's concerning Adobe Photoshop? I don't care about your personal opinion as to the scope of the forum so much as what Adobe's intention of the forum was.
Not worth composing a reply.
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7. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
sfjedi May 14, 2009 5:36 AM (in response to John Joslin)John Joslin wrote:
Not worth composing a reply.
I do apologize for my misspellation of the word delusional, but let me tell you what events led me to this forum.
I actually started on the feature request forum, naming features that Corel PHOTO-PAINT had that Adobe Photoshop didn't, but they stomped all over me and said I should get a history lesson about Photoshop or something.
So I've been researching the history of Adobe Photoshop to find some really interesting things! But the results are by no means acceptable in the feature request forum, which leads me here, only to get stomped on again by Photoshop apologists who have zero interest in Photoshop's history.
I just don't get it. It's like... you guys aren't even interested in a better product or something.
My ultimate goal was to prove that PS stole features from PP; thus, why not keep stealing and take my feature requests seriously? I mean, they've been doing it for years already. Why stop now?
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8. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
shoot me now-d3u3se May 14, 2009 5:56 AM (in response to sfjedi)Jed,
It doesn't matter who had layers or anything else first, what matter is who does it best. FWIW, Photoshop has had layers since ~1994, or about version 3.
As a former user of Photo Paint (version 6 came with my HP 4c scanner and I used it extensively through version 8), I can tell you that, compared to Photoshop,it is an unwieldy kludge. PS is so much more refined than PP, it's memory management so vastly superior with so many more options available during the editing process, that it makes PP look like a very poor imitation of the original. It is a child's toy.
For me, the transition from PP to PS was not painless and I preferred to use PP for quite awhile after I got PS. Once I got up to speed with PS, that was that. Maybe you should come to grips with the notion that just because you are used to something doesn't mean that there aren't better options.
PP sucks. Seriously. Corel admitted as much when they bought Paint Shop Pro (PP is no longer offered, is it?)
EDIT: I can't believe I was provoked into posting in this miserable excuse for a forum...
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9. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Zeno Bokor May 14, 2009 5:43 AM (in response to sfjedi)the reason why i don't take you seriously is because you started requesting features and stuff before knowing the program. A menu item for "New from clipboard"? don't much care for it as it doesn't save that many steps but where you blundered with that is when you suggested the shortcut for it because you didn't even know that Ctrl+Shift+N is already taken. Also, just because a feature could help out doesn't mean that it's worth implementing, it's not like the engineers behind Photoshop can just wish new features into existence. Between a "wineglass tool" or whatever and getting a better Displace filter that can work from alpha channels and has a preview i'll pick the latter all the time
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10. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
sfjedi May 14, 2009 6:13 AM (in response to Zeno Bokor)Zeno Bokor wrote:
the reason why i don't take you seriously is because you started requesting features and stuff before knowing the program.
That's not true at all! All of my feature requests still remain 100% valid feature requests.
A menu item for "New from clipboard"? don't much care for it as it doesn't save that many steps
And you are entitled to your own opinion. I don't see why you spend so much energy bashing on others' feature requests when it would take practically no time at all to implement it and OTHER people have made the exact same request. The fact that you admit it saves more steps is the very admittance that New from clipboard is a more efficient means of accomplishing that goal. Why bash on efficiency?
but where you blundered with that is when you suggested the shortcut for it because you didn't even know that Ctrl+Shift+N is already taken.
Oooh! HUGE mistake! I apologize! Thing is, it doesn't matter because you can remap all your keyboard shortcuts anyway! You say that as if it's a huge blunder or something. LOL man! Do you seriously know every keyboard shortcut by heart? Dude, I've been using PP for 15 years every day practically and I don't know all the shortcuts by heart! I should totally repent for this sin I have committed.
Also, just because a feature could help out doesn't mean that it's worth implementing, it's not like the engineers behind Photoshop can just wish new features into existence.
And I'll let Adobe decide if it's worth implementing, but the whole point of me posting the feature request was for my voice to be heard. Whether they do something about it is of no consequence to me, as long as I know I did my part.
Between a "wineglass tool" or whatever and getting a better Displace filter that can work from alpha channels and has a preview i'll pick the latter all the time
To each their own. I won't stoop down to your level by bashing on your feature request. If that's going to help out your workflow, by all means. Go for it!
To me, every feature request that isn't already implemented and doesn't hurt the efficiency of PS should be implemented eventually. The priority is a different story, but it should EVENTUALLY be added.
Thing is, if I don't speak up about it, it will NEVER be added. So maybe in 10 years they will implement New From Clipboard and in 10 years I will rejoice! Until then, enjoy my posts.
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11. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
John Joslin May 14, 2009 6:30 AM (in response to sfjedi)Not worth composing a reply.
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12. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Zeno Bokor May 14, 2009 6:38 AM (in response to sfjedi)All of my feature requests still remain 100% valid feature requests.
good for you, just don't expect us to agree with them, especially the way you present them. There's a difference between saying that you want feature X because you think that it would help the workflow of a lot of people in the following ways and saying that you want that feature because you don't want to change your own workflow when going from one program to another.
LOL man! Do you seriously know every keyboard shortcut by heart? Dude, I've been using PP for 15 years every day practically and I don't know all the shortcuts by heart! I should totally repent for this sin I have committed.
every keyboard shortcut? no, of course i don't, but if you work with a lot of layers then you have to know about Ctrl+Shift+N and Ctrl+Alt+Shift+N
To me, every feature request that isn't already implemented and doesn't hurt the efficiency of PS should be implemented eventually.
i don't even want to think about how many feature requests are being made/month
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13. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Marian Driscoll May 14, 2009 6:49 AM (in response to sfjedi)Jed Hunsaker wrote:
My ultimate goal was to prove that PS stole features from PP
So, what of it? You cannot really try to determine the origin of a software feature that attempts to mimic a functionality artists have used long before the advent of computers and software. What software developer gets credit for a paintbrush?
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14. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
sfjedi May 14, 2009 6:52 AM (in response to Marian Driscoll)Marian Driscoll wrote:
So, what of it? You cannot really try to determine the origin of a software feature that attempts to mimic a functionality artists have used long before the advent of computers and software. What software developer gets credit for a paintbrush?
Okay, well that was just one example! Here's more:
- PP had unlimited multiple levels of undo while PS only had 1 undo.
- PP had lenses before PS had styles (these were both based on methods to incorporate non-destructive alterations to objects/layers and to the image) .
- PP had clip masks before PS had layer masks (again, same thing)
- PP had a Paint on Mask Mode before PS had Quick Mask
- PP had unlimited multiple levels of undo while PS only had 1 undo.
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15. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
sfjedi May 14, 2009 7:08 AM (in response to Zeno Bokor)Zeno Bokor wrote:
good for you, just don't expect us to agree with them, especially the way you present them.
I don't remember saying I expected anyone to agree with them.
especially the way you present them. There's a difference between saying that you want feature X because you think that it would help the workflow of a lot of people in the following ways and saying that you want that feature because you don't want to change your own workflow when going from one program to another.
You're right! And saying it the way you suggest would quickly get it swept under the rug with boredom. The way it's presented is very important, as you say. See, I didn't think anyone would take me seriously in the first place, no matter how it was presented. My strategy was to hit a nerve and get some excitement about the topic, especially comparing PP to PS so, mayhap, Adobe would respond with the attitude of, "Oh no he didn't! Corel will NOT be better than us in even ONE feature!" That's the response I would hope Adobe has. And that's the strategy I take, lest my request be swept underneath the rug. And that's exactly what happened, as my feature requests have sparked quite a bit of discussion!
if you work with a lot of layers then you have to know about Ctrl+Shift+N and Ctrl+Alt+Shift+N
Unless, of course, you come from a PP background, where by default no keyboard shortcuts are mapped to creating a new layer. Instead, they have very intuitively "guessed" when you intend to make a new layer and I have found myself very rarely reaching for the new layer icon in the layers panel. Once again, an opportunity to express a very cool feature within PP, IMO. Though, other functions with layers are VERY intuitive: Ctrl+Up,Down,PgUp,PgDown... which I definitely remember.
Point is, once I transitioned over into Photoshop I found that I had to reach for that new layer button a lot when I wasn't used to with PP. Another extra step I have to deal with.
i don't even want to think about how many feature requests are being made/month
Neither do I, but is that a reason to not express one's self? Is that a reason to automatically assume that a lesser feature request should be ignored?
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16. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Marian Driscoll May 14, 2009 7:08 AM (in response to sfjedi)What features did PS have before PP?
I'm not dumb enought to waste my time or your time making up such a list. I don't care to waste anyone's time imagining who invented the wheel even though I require it to get to work everyday.
I (and I suspect others here) use many graphic apps (Adobe, Corel, Quark, Autodesk, Newtek) because we are professional. We use what works. Competition of features benefits us all.
Jed wrote:
You guys are funny. Are you even Americans? Why can't you accept the fact that other people aren't in love with the same software as you? It's like telling someone who's Christian to stop wearing a cross.
ummm... you are on the internet, a global network of users. Why would it matter where any of us are from? You are clearly insane. Find something better to do with the limited time we are all given on this planet.
Jed wrote:
You just ASSUME that Photoshop invented everything, but it's so far from the truth.
All you can do is accuse me of being dillusional with no evidence whatsoever.
I don't see where anyone assumed anything. And I don't see where such an assumption would ever matter. We're just using software here. So I guess that is the evidence that we all have that you are delusional. Let's move on to more productive discussion.
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17. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
shoot me now-d3u3se May 14, 2009 7:09 AM (in response to sfjedi)READ MY PREVIOUS POST!
It's not the feature, it's the implementation of the feature. So what if Corel invented the wheel first? Theirs is square and Adobe's is round.
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18. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Phos±four dots May 14, 2009 7:13 AM (in response to sfjedi)Q: "Where did Photoshop get the idea of layers?"
A: "From 100-year-old darkroom tricks."
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19. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
John Joslin May 14, 2009 7:18 AM (in response to Phos±four dots)Phos±four dots wrote:
Q: "Where did Photoshop get the idea of layers?"
A: "From 100-year-old darkroom tricks."
You forgot overhead projectors Phos!
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20. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Hudechrome-sd9sPI May 14, 2009 7:18 AM (in response to sfjedi)Hey bud, you have the term wrong so far as posing the question. Electronic Layers is the accurate way since layers, though limited, existed long before any digital software.One small example: The Unsharp Mask layer, which provides for opening shadows on negs or highlights on transparencies. Masking film has been around for a long time. I learned to use it in the 70's. A variation on it actually sharpened the image, from which the unsharp mask in PS derives.
Then there is photo montage aka compositing aka combination printing. The process began 1857 or so. A serious photograppher using that process is Jerry Uelsmann.
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21. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Hudechrome-sd9sPI May 14, 2009 7:20 AM (in response to sfjedi)Beat me toit, Phos! :-)
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22. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
sfjedi May 14, 2009 7:24 AM (in response to sfjedi)And to think it took so long to answer the damn question!!!
Lot's of back and forth without actually addressing the issue. Thanks Phos! You got my points in this round!
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23. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
sfjedi May 14, 2009 7:33 AM (in response to Hudechrome-sd9sPI)Hudechrome wrote:
Hey bud, you have the term wrong so far as posing the question. Electronic Layers is the accurate way since layers, though limited, existed long before any digital software.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layers_(digital_image_editing)
Thanks Hudechrome! Your post was very insightful. I lack the years to know of the 70s as you do, so I appreciate it, really.
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24. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Hudechrome-sd9sPI May 14, 2009 7:33 AM (in response to sfjedi)Shouldn't this be transferred to the Lounge? No reason to let the Windows people have all the fun!
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25. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
sfjedi May 14, 2009 7:37 AM (in response to Hudechrome-sd9sPI)Oh? Haha! From the topics in the lounge I found that few, if any of them had anything to do with Photoshop at all!
That's why I decided to post in this forum.
Good idea though.
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26. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Hudechrome-sd9sPI May 14, 2009 7:41 AM (in response to Hudechrome-sd9sPI)"If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants."
-Issac Newton
The giants in the photo and photomechanical industries form the basis for digital photo editing, and the have learned the lessons well (well, mostly!).
BTW, the computer you are using has a PC board which is composed of....ding! LAYERS!
Which came first, the computer or the layers?
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27. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Hudechrome-sd9sPI May 14, 2009 7:42 AM (in response to Hudechrome-sd9sPI)Oh, and you are welcome, Jed.:-)
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28. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Zeno Bokor May 14, 2009 7:42 AM (in response to Hudechrome-sd9sPI)silly question, the onion came first
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29. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
sfjedi May 14, 2009 7:47 AM (in response to shoot me now-d3u3se)shoot me now wrote:
It doesn't matter who had layers or anything else first, what matter is who does it best.
I see where you're coming from and I agree with you for the most part, but it all depends on why you wanted to know in the first place. My reason? Because my PS feature requests with PP roots were being shot down and if I could establish a relationship to prior features implemented into PS from PP then it would give me some credibility in establishing viable feature requests, as they have used PP in the past as a reference, if that makes any sense to you.
As a former user of Photo Paint (version 6 came with my HP 4c scanner and I used it extensively through version 8), I can tell you that, compared to Photoshop,it is an unwieldy kludge. PS is so much more refined than PP, it's memory management so vastly superior with so many more options available during the editing process, that it makes PP look like a very poor imitation of the original. It is a child's toy.
When is it that you made the transition to PS? What year? Version?
For me, the transition from PP to PS was not painless and I preferred to use PP for quite awhile after I got PS. Once I got up to speed with PS, that was that. Maybe you should come to grips with the notion that just because you are used to something doesn't mean that there aren't better options.
I'm going on 2 years of serious PS usage now and I'm still not feelin' it.
PP sucks. Seriously. Corel admitted as much when they bought Paint Shop Pro (PP is no longer offered, is it?)
Today, PP comes with the CorelDRAW Graphics Suite only, now on version X4 (14). As a standalone product? No. It's not available. Nor is it available for Mac or Linux versions any more.
Yeah, Corel isn't really worried about PP very much, I know. It's CorelDRAW they're most worried about. I think they accepted the inevitibility of PS's success early on.
EDIT: I can't believe I was provoked into posting in this miserable excuse for a forum...
You're not the only one. You people just can't help yourselves.
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30. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Marian Driscoll May 14, 2009 8:11 AM (in response to sfjedi)sfjedi wrote:
My reason? Because my PS feature requests with PP roots were being shot down and if I could establish a relationship to prior features implemented into PS from PP then it would give me some credibility in establishing viable feature requests...
There are many reasons why a feature request may be 'shot down'. Replicating something specific in Photoshop may be a patent violation. There may be other ways to accomplish the same task so there may be no need to replicate a function in the same way you wish. Adobe may have received the feature request but has not scheduled its inclusion yet. Keep in mind that software developers schedule or pace the features that are added in each release for the sake of regularly marketing a new, improved product.
If you really want a hand in developing graphic software, look to GIMP or Cinepaint. That is what open source is all about. I see some features in these apps before they appear in commercial apps.
You can also look to the Photoshop SDK forum.
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31. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Reynolds (Mark) May 14, 2009 9:38 AM (in response to Marian Driscoll)Jed, once again most of your assumptions and claims are wrong.
Where did layers come from? These were developed first of all in Photoshop. Mark Hamburg at Adobe, was I believe the first to conceptualize and experiment with digital layers. Unfortunately Mark left Adobe a few years ago to move to Microsoft. These were introduced in Photoshop 2.5 I think. Photoshop also had floating objects before layers, and those before Corel. Floating objects are not the same as layers, unless you are an idiot (obvious jokes omitted)
Most of your other assumptions about who was first on these developments are almost certainly incorrect, although I'm not going to waste time going through them one by one. I think you need to re-read and take to heart Post 8 in this thread - unwieldy kludge was the phrase. And since he's been through the same process as you, maybe you should listen.
Your view of Photoshop is like a teenagers view of the world. There is some vague hope that someone coming in from the outside could maybe spot basic things, just not so much luck so far when it come to convincing ideas of how things might improve.
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32. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
John Joslin May 14, 2009 9:41 AM (in response to Reynolds (Mark))Minor correction:
"1994 – Version 3.0 ships with the Layers capability."
From: http://www.storyphoto.com/multimedia/multimedia_photoshop.html
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33. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Reynolds (Mark) May 14, 2009 9:48 AM (in response to John Joslin)Seem to remember hearing it was 2.5 somewhere. Before my time anyway
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34. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Hudechrome-sd9sPI May 14, 2009 10:09 AM (in response to sfjedi)"You're not the only one. You people just can't help yourselves"
You people?
Never mind.
Good luck worrying your teen age zits........
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35. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
George Austin May 14, 2009 11:57 AM (in response to sfjedi)Which came first, the layer or the egg?
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36. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Bart Cross May 14, 2009 12:06 PM (in response to George Austin)The layer, where else would you lay the egg?
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37. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
George Austin May 14, 2009 1:46 PM (in response to Bart Cross)At last, the age-old question has been laid to rest !
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38. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
Gyno-jiz May 14, 2009 2:25 PM (in response to George Austin)Sounds like a layman's answer to me.
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39. Re: Where Did Photoshop Get the Idea of Layers?
sfjedi May 14, 2009 10:04 PM (in response to Reynolds (Mark))Reynolds (Mark) wrote:
Where did layers come from? These were developed first of all in Photoshop. Mark Hamburg at Adobe, was I believe the first to conceptualize and experiment with digital layers.
Thanks. I've just emailed Mark Hamburg to see his side of the story.
Unfortunately Mark left Adobe a few years ago to move to Microsoft.
Yeah, apparently he finds the Windows UI to be extremely annoying and he wants to help improve it. I'd be interested to see what happens. He probably feels like me when I use Photoshop. Instead of getting used to Windows, he wants to change it or otherwise add features to it.
Photoshop also had floating objects before layers, and those before Corel. Floating objects are not the same as layers, unless you are an idiot (obvious jokes omitted)
Tell me, what is the difference? Actually, the reason I called them floating objects is because PP still calls them objects today and not layers. The only reason I use the word layers is so you guys understand what I'm talking about.
For not wanting to investigate further, you must really be sure that Photoshop had these features before Corel!
I'm still researching...




