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    [locked] A Different Perspective On The Point System

    S.D.A. Community Member

      I was reading Joel on Software today and he was talking about "Stack Overflow" which is a very successful Q&A forum for programmers by programmers.  Joel makes the point that the Stack Overflow board (which is similar to these forums in that it's a technical support forum) uses a point system. Joel goes on to write;

       

      "It’s not much of a secret, but Stack Overflow is already a great place to find good programmers, because you can see how good people really are by reading the answers that they post. I’ve noticed a lot of people putting their Stack Overflow reputations on their resumes, and we’re starting to hear stories of people who got jobs through the site. Jeff and I are committed to building features to make this easier in the next “six to eight” weeks. For example, I’ve always hated traditional resumes, which just don’t give the right kind of information about a candidate. If you wanted to hire an iPhone developer, would you rather know that person’s Stack Overflow stats in the iPhone tag and read their answers to technical questions? Or would you rather know where they went to college?

      If we pull this off, getting jobs in the tech industry will be a lot saner."


      I'm not sure at this point where I sit in this debate; but I thought you all might be interested in a reasoned opinion on the pro side.

        • 1. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
          Phillip Jones Community Member

          S.D.A. wrote:

           

          I was reading Joel on Software today and he was talking about "Stack Overflow" which is a very successful Q&A forum for programmers by programmers.  Joel makes the point that the Stack Overflow board (which is similar to these forums in that it's a technical support forum) uses a point system. Joel goes on to write;

           

          "It’s not much of a secret, but Stack Overflow is already a great place to find good programmers, because you can see how good people really are by reading the answers that they post. I’ve noticed a lot of people putting their Stack Overflow reputations on their resumes, and we’re starting to hear stories of people who got jobs through the site. Jeff and I are committed to building features to make this easier in the next “six to eight” weeks. For example, I’ve always hated traditional resumes, which just don’t give the right kind of information about a candidate. If you wanted to hire an iPhone developer, would you rather know that person’s Stack Overflow stats in the iPhone tag and read their answers to technical questions? Or would you rather know where they went to college?

          If we pull this off, getting jobs in the tech industry will be a lot saner."


          I'm not sure at this point where I sit in this debate; but I thought you all might be interested in a reasoned opinion on the pro side.

          personally it doesn't affect me one way or the other I don't give points and I don't answer question for points. Frankly the only time I notice them all is if I happen to mousover my avatar.

           

          But I get the impression from most of the people Fussing about the points. Have the opinion anyone other than them have the brain of a Turnip. So people asking legimate questions, with their Turnip Brains don't know enough to decide whether an answer, solves their problem. They think that only a 100 page disertation on the subject is the only correct answer to the question.

           

          The object of answering questions is to solve problems. Whether the answer is a 5 liner, or ten page disertation; if  fixes the problem is all that matters.

          • 2. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
            Claudio González CommunityMVP

            PjonesCET wrote:

             

            The object of answering questions is to solve problems. Whether the answer is a 5 liner, or ten page disertation; if  fixes the problem is all that matters.

            We have been over this several times in other threads. Do I need to ask again if this includes solutions of the type "hit the Esc key times three times in rapid succession, then knock three times on your table, then hit Esc another three times", which may miraculously work once for the poster, and never again for anyone else? Even if a hundred other persons with the same problem try this "solution" unsuccessfully and became unnecessarily frustrated because nobody in the know bothered to read the thread already marked as "Answered", and so none of the true solutions to the problem got to be posted?

             

            Pity you find this so difficult to understand. Although, on second thoughts, perhaps it's really my fault because I have not explained myself sufficiently clearly because of my poor knowledge of your language?

            • 3. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
              dave milbut Community Member
              personally it doesn't affect me one way or the other

              then why would you bother to clutter up this thread with not only a full quote of a long topic starter, but a long post about something that "doesn't affect me [you] one way or the other"?

              • 4. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                dave milbut Community Member
                The object of answering questions is to solve problems. Whether the answer is a 5 liner, or ten page disertation; if  fixes the problem is all that matters.

                 

                if that's the purpose of this forum, then yes, yes it is.

                 

                if the purpose of this forum is to TEACH adobe's users how to use [an adobe app] photoshop (the way the pros here taught me when i started back in '02 or so) then the points system is destroying this forum.

                 

                so maybe adobe needs to clear up the purpose of this forum. is it to be just questions and answers from now on? in effect, a radical shift in direction and departure from its roots? or is it to remain THE resource on the web to go to learn from real professionals how to use adobe's products?

                • 5. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                  Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP
                  if the purpose of this forum is to TEACH adobe's users how to use [an adobe app] photoshop (the way the pros here taught me when i started back in '02 or so) then the points system is destroying this forum.

                  i never did understand this sort of thinking. If those pros that you're referring to don't care about the points then how exactly are they destroying the forum? The purpose of the points is "primarily to encourage greater participation from those users who care about them." (apparently they are very well received on the programing sections)

                   

                  On one hand, you guys say that the points are destroying the forums (based on ....) and on the other hand there are those in charge of the Community Help who say that they have solid data indicating that points have helped increase the overall value of the comments posted there. Gee, i wonder who i'll believe....

                  • 6. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                    S.D.A. Community Member

                    You've lost me, what's your point ? You don't understand why I would want to

                    offer a reasoned opinion on a topic that seems to be of interest to you old

                    Web Xers ? You're freaking incredible Dave.

                    • 7. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                      S.D.A. Community Member

                      Claudio Su Inglés es mucho mejor que mi español!


                      Nevertheless none of the arguments I've heard on the "CON" side have convinced me of their validity. That's the bottom line.


                      Actually I lied previously ; after having slept on it I'm probably leaning more to the side of favouring the point system. Nothing personal. Everyone's concern for the individual asking the question is admirable -- I'm just not convinced that is the real reasoning behind the arguments.

                      • 8. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                        S.D.A. Community Member

                        dave milbut wrote:

                        then why would you bother to clutter up this thread with not only a full quote of a long topic starter, but a long post about something that "doesn't affect me [you] one way or the other"?

                        Actually that was a *partial* quote.

                        • 9. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                          Harbs. CommunityMVP

                          I posted this some hours ago, but it looks like my email didn't quite make it...

                           

                          I think Dave hit the nail on the head.

                           

                          Whoever implemented the point system obviously considers the forums a place where users should be encouraged to give free tech support to newbies for Adobe's products (and save Adobe money on tech support...), while traditionally it's been a place where users can learn from each other (pros and newbies alike) to get a greater depth of understanding of the programs.

                           

                          If the intent was to change the flavor of the forums, they are being very successful! A lot of the old friendly banter is gone, and answers are given to try to satisfy the OPs question and no more. I feel it's a big shame.

                           

                          What's getting all of us worked up is this shift in focus. If the entire purpose of posting is to increase ones point status, the forum has become a very shallow experience. While it is true that people might answer questions for points, the answers will likely be shallower answers.

                           

                          I am personally not against a point system per se, but I am opposed to the way it is implemented. If ALL users could give points (or kudos, or what-have-you) for a useful answer (and not just the OP), with no limit to just three per thread, people would be encouraged to give more complete and universally useful answers. I believe that such an implementation would promote the joint learning atmosphere instead of stunting it...

                           

                          Harbs

                          • 10. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                            John Joslin Community Member

                            All good points. (Sorry!)


                            The word "shallow" is very apt related to the new atmosphere in the forums now.


                            People are posting in haste and giving incomplete answers in their quest for points.


                            I am pretty sure the Adobe grey suits have no idea of the havoc they have created, and probably wouldn't understand, even if it were spelled out to them in words of one syllable.

                            • 11. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                              Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP
                              Whoever implemented the point system obviously considers the forums a place where users should be encouraged to give free tech support to newbies for Adobe's products (and save Adobe money on tech support...), while traditionally it's been a place where users can learn from each other (pros and newbies alike) to get a greater depth of understanding of the programs.

                              wrong, the points were introduced because they wanted to offer an incentive to those users who care about these sort of things. If i'm not mistaken, they were first introduced when the help system for Lightroom 2.0 went online. The reason why they introduced them to the forums is because they considered the points to be a success on Community Help.

                               

                              What's getting all of us worked up is this shift in focus. If the entire purpose of posting is to increase ones point status, the forum has become a very shallow experience. While it is true that people might answer questions for points, the answers will likely be shallower answers.

                              the focus of the forums hasn't shifted, all that happened was that they added points, don't blow this out of proportion.

                               

                              I am personally not against a point system per se, but I am opposed to the way it is implemented.

                              And i agree with you, and so do the higher ups. Let me quote one of those evil suits that plan to destroy the forums and all life as we know it (hope i won't get into hot watter over this )

                              We recognize that there's some understandable frustration with the point system, particularly in the forums, where the Jive-based implementation limits our customization options. However, we want you guys to know that we're working with Jive to see if they can improve their points workflow.

                              • 12. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                Harbs. CommunityMVP

                                Zeno,

                                 

                                Thanks for that!

                                 

                                Perhaps I was a bit quick to point blame that this shift in focus was intentional. However, this shift in focus is very real. It's been felt by a lot of us.

                                 

                                If what you are saying is correct that there was no intent to create this shift in focus, then I'm very encouraged! I think I can deal with the bad implementation if there's hope for improvement. With a better implementation, the old flavor of the forums has a good chance of returning...

                                 

                                Harbs

                                • 13. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                  D Fosse-QDEaQ1 Community Member

                                  Zeno Bokor wrote:


                                  the focus of the forums hasn't shifted

                                  Harbs wrote:

                                  However, this shift in focus is very real. It's been felt by a lot of us.

                                  I agree 100% with Harbs on this, and if you don't see that, Zeno, it must be because you don't want to see it. No offense, but you came in during the very last gasp of WebX, and you didn't actively post there for very long.

                                   

                                  As for me, I find I'm gradually losing interest in the forums. I pop in from time to time, but it's just not as exciting and interesting as it used to be. It's become, yes, shallow. Fast-moving, but shallow.

                                  • 14. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                    dave milbut Community Member
                                    If those pros that you're referring to don't care about the points then how exactly are they destroying the forum?

                                    many of them are insulted by them and have left. the format of the forums have changed becasue the new system discourages long teaching discourses with lots of back and forth an examples coming from the teachers and the students. this format encourages quick, dirty answers (as pj says, paraphrasing: who needs a discourse when ESC ESC UP UP DOWN LEFT RIGHT START works, and others add: even if that trashes your image!).

                                     

                                    and on the other hand there are those in charge of the Community Help who say that they have solid data indicating that points have helped increase the overall value of the comments posted there

                                     

                                    no offense to any but i don't believe that for a second. change that to maybe those who have some vested interest in the new forums or are in some way beholden to adobve mgmt are pushing the corporate line, then yes, you've got a point.

                                     

                                    and who the $@** are "community help"? i haven't seen ANY "community help" in the last 7ish years except that provided by myself and other dedicated users to the adobe user "community".

                                    Gee, i wonder who i'll believe....

                                    hmm, maybe the guy who cares enough about adobe and it's products to spend the last 7 years donating his time helping people use adobe's programs? Gee, f*&k off with your snide "Gees" bish. thanks.

                                     

                                    You're freaking incredible Dave.

                                    um, sorry steve, you did notice that i was responding to pj who said he doesn't care, right?

                                     

                                     

                                    If the intent was to change the flavor of the forums, they are being very successful! A lot of the old friendly banter is gone, and answers are given to try to satisfy the OPs question and no more. I feel it's a big shame.

                                    exactly... that's all i was saying.and i feel that if that's the intent, adobe should come out and SAY so. then those of us who care about the programs and helping people make best use of them can move on and those who care about racking up meatballs can provide the free tech support for a change.

                                     

                                    I am personally not against a point system per se, but I am opposed to the way it is implemented. If ALL users could give points (or kudos, or what-have-you) for a useful answer (and not just the OP), with no limit to just three per thread, people would be encouraged to give more complete and universally useful answers. I believe that such an implementation would promote the joint learning atmosphere instead of stunting it...

                                     

                                     

                                    again, yes. and this was brought up in this specific forum when we were asked for feedback.

                                     

                                    the focus of the forums hasn't shifted, all that happened was that they added points, don't blow this out of proportion.

                                    you're wrong zeno! not only are you wrong, but you're speaking as if you're some sort of authority on it and if you have any pull with adobe (and it seems you do) then you're providing them with your wrong, skewed view of how things were vs. how they are.

                                     

                                    how the heck would you know? where did you come from? how did you get authority? WHERE THE H&LL WERE YOU FOR THE LAST DECADE that you can compare the way the old forum works with the vapid eye candy we're being forced to use now? you sure as heck weren't providing adobe photoshop windows support...

                                     

                                    GEE, "A customer is the most important visitor on our premises. he is not dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an interruption in our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an outsider in our business. He is part of it. We are not doing him a favor by serving him. He is doing us a favor by giving us an opportunity to do so."

                                    • 15. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                      dave milbut Community Member
                                      many of them are insulted by them and have left. the format of the forums have changed becasue the new system discourages long teaching discourses with lots of back and forth an examples coming from the teachers and the students. this format encourages quick, dirty answers (as pj says, paraphrasing: who needs a discourse when ESC ESC UP UP DOWN LEFT RIGHT START works, and others add: even if that trashes your image!).

                                      so DON'T say you've never been given any good reasons. say you don't BELIEVE any of the reasons fine, but what i've said ISN'T NEW. it's what the volunteers have been saying since WE WERE ASKED for our opinion.

                                      • 16. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                        dave milbut Community Member

                                        Claudio Su Inglés es mucho mejor que mi español!


                                        Nevertheless none of the arguments I've heard on the "CON" side have convinced me of their validity. That's the bottom line.

                                        and again steve, you seem to have missed that claudio was responding to PJ, not to you? is that stuff not visible in whatever client you're using?

                                        • 17. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                          Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

                                          when i said "forum focus" i was responding Harbs, specifically his comment that the focus of the forums has changed from helping users to that of obtaining points, i thought i made that clear by quoting that portion of his post

                                           

                                          dave milbut wrote:

                                           

                                          and who the $@** are "community help"? i haven't seen ANY "community help" in the last 7ish years except that provided by myself and other dedicated users to the adobe user "community".

                                          http://blogs.adobe.com/communityhelp/2009/01/adobe_community_help_the_movie.html

                                          Where has it been? nowhere, it's a new thing

                                           

                                          the focus of the forums hasn't shifted, all that happened was that they added points, don't blow this out of proportion.

                                          you're wrong zeno! not only are you wrong, but you're speaking as if you're some sort of authority on it and if you have any pull with adobe (and it seems you do) then you're providing them with your wrong, skewed view of how things were vs. how they are.

                                          please read what i was responding to before going nuclear on me, thanks

                                          • 18. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                            dave milbut Community Member
                                            when i said "forum focus" i was responding Harbs, specifically his comment that the focus of the forums has changed from helping users to that of obtaining points, i thought i made that clear by quoting that portion of his post

                                            sorry. i was also speaking of focus so i thought you were responding to me.

                                             

                                            Where has it been? nowhere, it's a new thing

                                            exaclty. so why would you come out with a "gee who to believe" comment when you have something totally new with no context and no history vs. someone who's PROVEN he cares by the time and dedication i've (among many) shown over these many many years?

                                             

                                            please read what i was responding to before going nuclear on me, thanks

                                            fair enough. but that wasn't nuclear, that was tactical conventional.

                                            • 19. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                              Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

                                              i was responding to both of you but i didn't want to make two posts for essentially the same thing, that's why i replied and responded to D Fosse and then quoted you and responded to your post.

                                               

                                              exaclty. so why would you come out with a "gee who to believe" comment when you have something totally new with no context and no history vs. someone who's PROVEN he cares by the time and dedication i've (among many) shown over these many many years?

                                              well, the points have been around for about a year now (i think) so i'd say that they had enough time to gather some feedback and statistical data about them.

                                               

                                               

                                              This is a thread about the points and i personally believe that they're not the reason why you guys say that the forum activity/quality has gone down, i'd say that it's linked mostly to the loss of NNTP combined with the new look and all the problems that came with the launch of the new forums. And yes, i know that i'm not fit to gauge the difference between how the forums are now compared to how they were before.

                                               

                                              I'm not trying to tell you guys what to think about the points, just trying to help shed some light on them. If my help isn't wanted then fine by me, i've got better things to do.

                                              • 20. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                Harbs. CommunityMVP

                                                Zeno Bokor wrote:

                                                 

                                                when i said "forum focus" i was responding Harbs, specifically his comment that the focus of the forums has changed from helping users to that of obtaining points...

                                                 


                                                Zeno,

                                                 

                                                I think you might have missed the point. There's no question that a lot of people are still helping users (myself included). The question is what kind of help, and what's the motivation.

                                                 

                                                The motivation used to be a shared one where there was a sense of camaraderie, where we could help each other as well as make personal and business contacts. This air lent itself to discussions with a lot of depth which covered many different angles.

                                                 

                                                The motivation has switched to a sort of competition over who gets the points (yes, most people do care about points --  as stupid as it is...) with a feeling of bitterness when the points were not correctly awarded.

                                                 

                                                This changes the feeling from one of community to one of competition. Besides the fact that both words start with "c" and they help (new) users, they have very little to do with each other!

                                                 

                                                Leaving the motivation of the points while removing some of the competition would do a lot to help return the old flavor...

                                                 

                                                I am speaking from my experience on the InDesign forums, but I'm quite confident that this is universal.

                                                 

                                                Harbs

                                                 

                                                Message was edited by: Harbs. (bad typo)

                                                • 21. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                  Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP
                                                  The motivation has switched to a sort of competition over who gets the points (yes, most people do care about points --  as stupid as it is...) with a feeling of bitterness when the points were not correctly awarded.

                                                  yes, i also cared a bit about them back when i got my first points (that was on CH, the new forums weren't live back then) though it was more along the lines of "what the heck are they?", "why did i get points?" and "what do i get if i have x amount of points?" After a couple of days i was already ignoring them so i'd say that after the novelty of having points wears off things will go back to normal.

                                                   

                                                  As for my points on the forums, i barely get any compared to how many times i post so i don't see how the competition factor would work, or at least that's my experience with them. I could maybe see a race to get the second blob but i highly doubt that there will be a lot of people that will still care about the points by the time they get the third one at 2k points

                                                  • 22. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                    D Fosse-QDEaQ1 Community Member

                                                    You're still missing it, Zeno.

                                                     

                                                    It's an insult to our intelligence.

                                                    • 23. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                      Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

                                                      what does that even mean? and how are points any different from the post count and join date in that regard? and don't tell me that those aren't important because i've seen my fair share of posts that go along the lines of "you don't know squat because you only joined this forum today" and "i'm not even going to consider your opinion because i didn't see you post around here" and yes i've seen these even on the old webx forum and on every forum that i've ever visited. If one can ignore post count and join date then i don't see why someone couldn't also ignore the points.

                                                      • 24. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                        dave milbut Community Member
                                                        i personally believe that they're not the reason why you guys say that the forum activity/quality has gone down, i'd say that it's linked mostly to the loss of NNTP combined with the new look and all the problems that came with the launch of the new forums.

                                                        yes. that's a very fair stmt. i don't think anyone of us thinks that it's SOLELY the points. of course it's a combination of all these things. death from multiple small stabs. but as you say, this thread is about points so that's what i (we?) were addressing.

                                                         

                                                        If my help isn't wanted then fine by me, i've got better things to do.

                                                        I think lots of us are feeling that way zeno. sorry for my shortness.

                                                        • 25. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                          S.D.A. Community Member

                                                          dave milbut wrote:

                                                           

                                                          Claudio Su Inglés es mucho mejor que mi español!


                                                          Nevertheless none of the arguments I've heard on the "CON" side have convinced me of their validity. That's the bottom line.

                                                          and again steve, you seem to have missed that claudio was responding to PJ, not to you? is that stuff not visible in whatever client you're using?

                                                          Not when I'm posting via e-mail.

                                                          • 26. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                            S.D.A. Community Member

                                                            D Fosse wrote:

                                                             

                                                            You're still missing it, Zeno.

                                                             

                                                            It's an insult to our intelligence.

                                                            I don't get this argument at all. Sorry.

                                                            • 27. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point Systemand how are points any different from the post count and join date in that regard?
                                                              dave milbut Community Member
                                                              and how are points any different from the post count and join date in that regard?

                                                              they're not. lots of people object(ed) to them too.

                                                              • 28. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                                S.D.A. Community Member

                                                                Not when I'm posting via e-mail. In the web interface, yes.

                                                                • 29. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                                  dave milbut Community Member

                                                                  S.D.A. wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  dave milbut wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  Claudio Su Inglés es mucho mejor que mi español!


                                                                  Nevertheless none of the arguments I've heard on the "CON" side have convinced me of their validity. That's the bottom line.

                                                                  and again steve, you seem to have missed that claudio was responding to PJ, not to you? is that stuff not visible in whatever client you're using?

                                                                  Not when I'm posting via e-mail.

                                                                   

                                                                  You're freaking incredible Dave.

                                                                   

                                                                  so then am i freaking credible again?

                                                                  • 30. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                                    S.D.A. Community Member

                                                                    Not when I'm posting via e-mail. In the web interface, yes.

                                                                    • 31. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                                      greenjumpyone Community Member

                                                                      Zeno Bokor wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      what does that even mean? and how are points any different from the post count and join date in that regard? and don't tell me that those aren't important because i've seen my fair share of posts that go along the lines of "you don't know squat because you only joined this forum today" and "i'm not even going to consider your opinion because i didn't see you post around here" and yes i've seen these even on the old webx forum and on every forum that i've ever visited. If one can ignore post count and join date then i don't see why someone couldn't also ignore the points.

                                                                      Zeno,

                                                                      because I don't think *any* of them are valid!  They are misleading and can lead to misunderstandings of the help provided.

                                                                       

                                                                      Again, keeping this OT, points are not an indicator of the quality of information provided in the answer.

                                                                       

                                                                      And I agree with the posters, including you, who indicate that the "joined" date and  number of posts are not necessarily an indication of how good the answers are.  It *deceives* the OP by inadvertantly leading them down a specifc path that may or may not be revelent.

                                                                      • 32. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                                        Claudio González CommunityMVP

                                                                        Steve, I was reading your opening post, and found very interesting this phrase in the text you quote:

                                                                         

                                                                        If you wanted to hire an iPhone developer, would you rather know that person’s Stack Overflow stats in the iPhone tag and read their answers to technical questions?

                                                                         

                                                                        I went to the original source and, as I understood things, the emphasis is not in a person's statistics, but in actually reading what that person has written when answering technical questions. The quality of those answers is what would really matter for me if I wanted to hire a developer. In fact, if you click on a person's avatar, you not only get several numbers that were meaningless for me, but also a list of links to that person's answers, with ratings I didn't try to discover how they are obtained.


                                                                        So, I don't see your quotation as an argument in favour of the points system. Maybe it is helpful over there (it wasn't clear for me how and by whom points are awarded), but that doesn't necessarily make it helpful here, where it is the original poster who awards them. And, in the case of newcomers, this can be done for completely wrong reasons... And I very much doubt that someone wanting to hire an expert in using, say, InDesign, would come to the InDesign forum looking for orientation...

                                                                        • 33. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point Systemand how are points any different from the post count and join date in that regard?
                                                                          Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

                                                                          like it or not, post count and join date are standard fare for forums, it's very hard to find new forums without them. This is another case of elite users complaining about features added to appease noobs. I'm not saying this as an insult, it's just how things are all over the world. Fighting against adding those two was a waste of time from the get go.

                                                                           

                                                                          Ultimately points are only a rough guide though they are a bit more precise than post count and join date because you can get high post count by posting OT stuff in the Lounge and you don't even have to bother with "increasing" your join date. On the other hand though don't insult the intelligence of the new users by saying that points are misleading them and that they can't make a decision on their own and have to rely upon points to decide which answer is correct.

                                                                           

                                                                          From our standpoint, points exist primarily to encourage greater participation from those users who care about them.

                                                                          That's all there is about points. Take a step back, clear your head and then look at that statement, i say that it's a reasonable standpoint. The "suits" don't want to destroy the forums, on the contrary, by adding points they are hoping that they will increase the participation in the forums.

                                                                           

                                                                          Community Help was made to get people to share their knowledge, that's why you can post comments directly on the online documentation and on the articles and videos from the adobe site; still a bit wobbly with the videos though as there's no way to post comments on Adobe TV but you can post comments on these videos: http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/cs4/articles/videoindex.html What is my point with all this? the fact that they are trying to tie all these together (one step of that being the points) so if somebody asks a question on CH and there's a thread about that already on the forums then i could just tell them to go to that thread. Sure that means that at first only beggining users would come around here but as time goes on, experienced users might also come to the forums through these links.

                                                                           

                                                                           

                                                                          Just complaining about the points probably won't get you guys anywhere and making threads about free points is completly useless (when deleting threads, the users lose the points gained in that thread). But don't let me stop you, bash away, see what you'll accomplish with that.

                                                                          • 34. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                                            Ansury Community Member

                                                                            Claudio is right, the only way a "point system" would be taken seriously is if it was a primary focus of a very popular and well known site.  Ebay might be the closest example.

                                                                            • 35. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point Systemand how are points any different from the post count and join date in that regard?
                                                                              Ansury Community Member

                                                                              Zeno Bokor wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              That's all there is about points. Take a step back, clear your head and then look at that statement, i say that it's a reasonable standpoint. The "suits" don't want to destroy the forums, on the contrary, by adding points they are hoping that they will increase the participation in the forums.

                                                                               

                                                                              But they never checked or considered (nor could they) whether the increased participation would be mostly valuable, or mostly add to forum clutter and noise.  It's just assumed that it'll be a good thing with no negative consequences.

                                                                              • 36. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                                                Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

                                                                                So, I don't see your quotation as an argument in favour of the points system. Maybe it is helpful over there (it wasn't clear for me how and by whom points are awarded), but that doesn't necessarily make it helpful here, where it is the original poster who awards them. And, in the case of newcomers, this can be done for completely wrong reasons... And I very much doubt that someone wanting to hire an expert in using, say, InDesign, would come to the InDesign forum looking for orientation...

                                                                                As i've said, they are working on changing the way the points are awarded on the forum, this isn't the final implementation. The quality of the points went down when they were introduced in the forums because on CH you have to work much harder for your points as they are awarded only by moderators (not that this changes the quality of points by a whole lot). On CH the points are awarded based on the quality of your post, you get 5 points for pointing out a typo on the documentation but if you post a mini tutorial then you can get as much as 50 points

                                                                                • 37. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point Systemand how are points any different from the post count and join date in that regard?
                                                                                  Kath-H Community Member

                                                                                  Increased participation, in itself, is not necessarily a good thing anyway. Even if more people ask questions, and I see no reason why they should, what matters is the number and above all quality of the answers. Driving out some of the most valuable contributors can hardly be an improvement. Even annoying the heck out of them so they contribute less is far more important that attracting more questioners.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  How does that work anyway? If someone needs help, they will ask - why would the eye candy make them more likely to do so? Attract more people to answer, just for the sake of points, when they don't have much useful to add? Why???

                                                                                   

                                                                                  None of this makes sense.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point System
                                                                                    Kath-H Community Member

                                                                                    @ Zeno - that might make more sense, having points awarded by people who know what they are talking about - but on this scale? Very optimistic. Not sure how many forums there are here now but it's a heck of a lot - and some of the hosts have already packed their bags and gone.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: A Different Perspective On The Point Systemand how are points any different from the post count and join date in that regard?
                                                                                      dave milbut Community Member

                                                                                      Attract more people to answer, just for the sake of points, when they don't have much useful to add? Why???

                                                                                      bingo. if they're so interested in helping, where were they before the points system? it just makes no sense.

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