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1. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Chris Cox Jun 21, 2009 11:22 PM (in response to Miguel Curto)Yeah, I wrote Smart Objects so you could do that.
Or work on the parent document at a different resolution, or mix child documents with multiple colorspaces, modes and bit depths....
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2. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Miguel Curto Jun 21, 2009 11:29 PM (in response to Chris Cox)I never really gave much credit to Smart Objects until now... I used it mainly to keep primary resolution of objects and trasnformations cause they stick with the object.
One other cool thing I noticed is if you have several copies of the same smart object on a file, if you change one it apllies to every single other copie.Can be a real time saver,but just in case: how do you turn that behaviour off?
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3. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Chris Cox Jun 21, 2009 11:37 PM (in response to Miguel Curto)"New Smart Object via Copy" -- tears off an independent copy of the child document.
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4. Smart Objects: render intent
c.pfaffenbichler Jun 22, 2009 2:01 AM (in response to Chris Cox)Mr. Cox, I’m not sure if I have asked You that before, so please excuse me if You already answered that, but is the conversion Intent for SOs of a different color-space than the containing document always Relative Colorimetric or can that be determined individually?
Anyway, thanks for the Smart Objects!
I find them enormously useful and the possibility to perspectively transform them was one of the great new, but little remarked upon features in CS4.
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5. Re: Smart Objects: render intent
Reynolds (Mark) Jun 22, 2009 2:10 PM (in response to c.pfaffenbichler)is the conversion Intent for SOs of a different color-space than the containing document always Relative Colorimetric or can that be determined individually?
That depends on what you have set in your Preferences as the default. No it can't be determined individually yet.
Great to see people getting the value Smart Objects, finally! I sometimes think Adobe's main deficiency is that they just don't provide proper guidance when genuinely new functions are introduced. Perhaps providing diverse examples of their use would be sufficient. Smart Objects were introduced in CS2, with all the reviewers pointing to resolution alone, with no mention of all their other uses, some of which looks like a user like Miguel has just woken up to!
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6. Re: Smart Objects: render intent
Chris Cox Jun 22, 2009 4:56 PM (in response to c.pfaffenbichler)Mark got it right.
The intent comes from preferences, and you can't set it on a per-layer/SO basis at this time.
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7. Re: Smart Objects: render intent
c.pfaffenbichler Jun 22, 2009 10:41 PM (in response to Reynolds (Mark))Thanks for the replies.
It is indeed amazing how few people, judging from my professional surroundings at least, utilize Smart Objects.
But then again around these parts only a minority of users/companies seem to have made the move to CS4 so far, so I suppose a lot of people aren’t really into new or improved features anyway … though admittedly time- and (now more than even just last year) monetary concerns probably play a significant role in such decisions.
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8. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Doug Katz Jun 23, 2009 7:56 AM (in response to Miguel Curto)This is an important discussion. Do any of you know if there is a document or site somewhere that concisely describes these many uses of Smart Objects? I, for one, would be interested in any and every use beyond resolution preservation, the oldest and most well known.
I have remained abreast of the steady improvements and enhanced capabilities of Smart objects (linked masks, transformation possibilities, and so forth). But these are different from the "many other uses" that are alluded to in this thread.
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9. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
eRychu Jun 23, 2009 8:43 AM (in response to Doug Katz)Hi Doug
I'm not aware about any websites. But I was involved with creation of multiple pictures (about 300) used as a backgrounds for packaging. On each side of the box we had a "flavour" picture. Which I converted to smart object and duplicate, scale, etc as many times as package required. Then I prepared a Flavour pictures in exact size as my base smart object and saved them as psb. After this menu Layer > Smart Objects > Replace Contents and all flavours objects was replaced in the position, scaled etc. It saved me dozens of hours.
eRychu
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10. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Miguel Curto Jun 24, 2009 6:03 AM (in response to Doug Katz)Other uses I can think off are for instance the use of clipping masks to groups,only possible you u convert the group to a smart object.
Unsharp Mask is a must if you wanna cover ur ***..u can always go back and the file doesnt get almost any bigger.You can even do a mask on the Unsharp Mask layer without having a duplicate layer.
Heck,u can even start with a RAW file all the way to the finnal image,leaving the RAW embbeded.Problem is file sizes tend to grow...a lot.Unless your using duplicated objects.
Imagine the cenario youre having a final image with hundreds of similar objects flying,(for instance: apples or any other fruit you like)...you can start only with half a dozen diferent shots.Load them as smart objects and start duplicating (layer duplication) then you can aply transformations,flip them,resize,whatever..until u have 100 diferent looking ones.In the end file size will be much smaller than it used to be (tradicional layer copies with hundred diferent bitmaps) because for the record u only have there half a dozen images.
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11. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Chris Cox Jun 24, 2009 8:40 PM (in response to Miguel Curto)Why haven't we documented all the uses? Because people keep coming up with new uses faster than I can document them.
There's even a book on Smart Object workflow (which I haven't had time to read yet).
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12. Re: Smart Objects
c.pfaffenbichler Jun 25, 2009 1:05 AM (in response to Doug Katz)Another one of Smart Objects’ possible uses are kaleidoscopic montages, however seldom one may need them.
A technique I have found occasionally useful: When faking the appearance of not yet produced prints by integrating Smart Objects into photographs, Transform and Warp are not always sufficient to simulate the actual surface-bends; in these cases one can embed graphics or images in an Illustrator-file to be able to apply Illustrator’s Envelope Distort, which offers more flexibility than Photoshop’s Warp, and place that object as a Vector-Smart Object back in Photoshop.
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13. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Doug Katz Jun 25, 2009 7:47 AM (in response to Chris Cox)Wasn't complaining about the lack of documentation. In fact, isn't it a monstrous tribute that "people keep coming up with new uses faster than I can document them"?
No better testimony to the power and versatility of the innovation!
Thank you all for answering my question. Enormously informative so far.
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14. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Reynolds (Mark) Jun 25, 2009 9:13 AM (in response to Doug Katz)isn't it a monstrous tribute that "people keep coming up with new uses faster than I can document them"?
Like you say, I think its more of a tribute, that some people in the engineering team were sufficiently froward looking to push it through. Its one of those unique features that come along once in while that really change the rules. Like automation, history, and even layers themselves. With these rule-breaking features, it generally seems to take a few revisions for many people to really work them out, and what advantages there may be for them hidden away.
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15. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Chris Cox Jun 25, 2009 1:03 PM (in response to Reynolds (Mark))* Blushing *
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16. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Mike Ornellas Jun 27, 2009 9:03 AM (in response to Chris Cox)You need to scrap this current concept of Smart Objects Chris and make the entire App the parent recipenant in smart logic - not this hodge podge of a mess it's creating. And only you can sell it to management, but you have to be willing to gamble to push the envelope to its real potential.
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17. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Richard Rose2 Jun 27, 2009 11:01 AM (in response to Mike Ornellas)Mike,
I completely agree. "Hodge-podge of a mess" isn't strong enough a description of the situation.
But the problem isn't really the way SO is implemented (although I do agree with your suggestion), it's the hopeless reality that so many people with absolutely no concept whatever of the requirements of both the mechanical and electronic aspects of graphic design and the printed page have access to such powerful software.
The situation was out of control a decade ago and it has only gotten worse with each year and version of Photoshop and ID. The landscape actually started to totally explode with the introduction of color management somewhere around PS v7. I thought we were at the dawn of a Golden Age when that happened but exactly the opposite took place. You know exactly what I mean.
With each new capability, people found a way to make life absolute hell for those of us on the receiving end of the final file. It's impossible to talk to anyone "upstream" in the design process any more about the preparation of files. Concepts such as Smart Objects and color management might as well be advanced quantum physics as far as they intend to grasp the needed knowledge, and they throw things in to the "hodge podge" without any idea of what they're doing. By and large, Smart Objects has just given them one more way to put a 72 ppi 3" x 5" RGB image without any profile in a document, intended to print an 11 x 17 spread with full bleed on a web press, sheetfed press, and oh, yeah in a PDF intended for Web distribution.
Although Adobe has done some absolutely bone headed and destructive things in the last few years with each version of PS, the problem I'm describing is not Photoshop's fault. I don't think that any organization of capabilities into a more coherent workflow is ever going to improve things. In the time I wrote this message, a thousand people who have never had a minute of training in graphic arts have opened PS for maybe the 3rd or 4th time and started a 4-color brochure project for their company that will be on its way to some hapless printer in a few weeks. And they will consider themselves designers. And they will never aquire any additional training.
Hey, they give prizes for Air Guitar, right? It's the same kind of thinking. No ability, no talent, no training, no experience, but all kinds of accolades for something that passes for "performance."
But, hell, what do I know, I'm just a dumb guy with printing ink under his fingernails.
Rich
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18. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Reynolds (Mark) Jun 27, 2009 12:18 PM (in response to Richard Rose2)Yeah …
make the entire App the parent recipenant in smart logic
…unfortunately, that doesn't mean anything, in English at least.
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19. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Miguel Curto Jun 27, 2009 2:16 PM (in response to Richard Rose2)Not that it matters much but if I remember correctly real color management began in 5.5
Never the less I do think smart objects can be really helpful to minimize the problems youre describing.Its not that seldom that you have to resize images after you having all work done not to mention the mess some costumers make with RGB/CMYK requeirements.I know they'll make my live easier and Im sure that extends to the printer my costumers will send my work to.
What your describing is something I have to deal almost every day: the lack of technical knowledge of the persons that make decisions,assign works and make budgets.And to be honest thats the kind of people that I feel smart object are covering my *** from.I can happily deliver a CMYK file in the generic CMYK (most people actually believe there is such a thing) knowing that inside theres a proper file in AdobeRGB or even ProPhoto or simply a embedded 33Mp RAW inside.
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20. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Richard Rose2 Jun 27, 2009 2:48 PM (in response to Miguel Curto)Miguel,
"a CMYK file in the generic CMYK (most people actually believe there is such a thing)"
There are very few people still in this industry who have any idea what those few words really mean or who would ever put that thought together.
Very nice to meet you.
Rich
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21. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Mike Ornellas Jun 27, 2009 7:21 PM (in response to Richard Rose2)
Mark -
There are a few gross errors in Photoshop that are seen as bugs, but go uncorrected for years due to the amount of work needed to fix them - not to mention - get it worked into the correction cycle in development. Marketing is steering the train. Go think about that oxymoron for a few weeks...;o)
One major problem is the conundrum of being able to open an untagged file, assign a color space, then look at it. That in itself is counter intuitive and basically a HUGE hole in the application with respect to color management. With the new proposed architecture of creating the entire application Smart Photoshop - You not only eliminate this issue, but also have created a new and improved workflow - integrating source color images into the working space, tagged or untagged, with consistency for all. Adobe products are now far and wide enough to have the majority rule, so why not capitalize on it and implement a global workflow. This logic works for many industries Adobe serves. From 2d, 3d to motion video, cell phone, bio medical, and who knows what's next. It's image history preservation in its simple form.
In English, whittle down 9 options to 2 for color policies and change the logic between RGB and CMYK file handling. Convert to working space. Have the working space 32 bit Pro Photo RGB. Files flow into it as well as color space conversions. Now remember, this is a choice feature and not a force fit. It's a marketing born inception that caters to the masses for best practice. If you want to work outside that environment, its your choice, but it's not advisable unless you are resurrecting trash, re-assigning really bad pictures, or it does not work for your requirement and a new additional per-dim needs to be created. I'm offering a choice. Two choices to be specific. Road or off road travel. For here now, and tomorrow. It's a creature of growth, just like the implementation of Smart Objects that has morphed more possibilities as well as options. But Smart Objects is a representation of Adobe's expanded free for all mentality to push the envelope of development for market share. My advice is to back on the whizz bang wow factor and get some damn control of the features grained in deep rooted experience from power users....
Smart Photoshop is needed because users are not getting it Gentleman and Ladies. Expecting most users to become geeks is not going to happen. It's a given from a marketing stand point, but they refuse to see how to address it for one reason or another. Maybe too busy dealing with the company merge and product integration. Im pretty sure its quite an undertaking, but its time to make the best - better....I remember Bruce Fraser talking about Chris and Thomas wanting 12 ish choices for color policies fearing too much restrain for growth. Thank you Bruce for 9, but my friend, we need even less.... Smart Photoshop gives 2 choices. Structure or Chaos. Right now we only have chaos. My vote is to have uniformity with very little user understanding and awareness. That's good implementation. The software has to become intelligent people.....
I'm game. Who has balls here?nice to see ur pair Rich.
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22. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Miguel Curto Jun 27, 2009 7:41 PM (in response to Mike Ornellas)Wouldnt ProPhotoRGB make things somewhat more dificult for newcomers?
I think I know one or two things about color spaces but even so Im not that much confortable editing in such a wide space.Im always looking over my shoulder: is this porsterization?is this too much out-of-gamut?so on,so on...
(BTW:Any idea why BruceRGB is no more an option with profiles shipped within Photoshop?)
Couldn't some of this be done with something like an adjustment layer for smart objects?Something new like "convert to working space adjustment layer"?Since today most images come from digital cameras maybe it could be adressed at Adobe Camera Raw.It wouldn't assign a RGB color space but rather leave a "smart layer" attached to convert/change the RGB values in Photoshop.
But even if there was something like a Smart App Photoshop...wouldnt people (non geeks) need Smart Monitors too?
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23. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Mike Ornellas Jun 27, 2009 8:03 PM (in response to Miguel Curto)Miguel -
Wouldnt ProPhotoRGB make things somewhat more dificult for newcomers?
No because the file shall be converted from a narrow space into a wide uniform space preserving the color appearance. Editing the image shall integrate out of gamut masks for destination color space proof set up routines. The whole point is to preserve the working image as well as integrate other images into a working uniform space before the conversion as well as showing the user what is in gamut and what is out of gamut for their use. THAT IS THE KEY TO STOP THE SCREW UPS~!mo
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24. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Ramón G Castañeda Jun 27, 2009 8:51 PM (in response to Mike Ornellas)Mike Ornellas wrote:
…[snip]
One major problem is the conundrum of being able to open an untagged file, assign a color space, then look at it. That in itself is counter intuitive and basically a HUGE hole in the application with respect to color management. With the new proposed architecture of creating the entire application Smart Photoshop - You not only eliminate this issue, but also have created a new and improved workflow - integrating source color images into the working space, tagged or untagged, with consistency for all. Adobe products are now far and wide enough to have the majority rule, so why not capitalize on it and implement a global workflow. This logic works for many industries Adobe serves. From 2d, 3d to motion video, cell phone, bio medical, and who knows what's next. It's image history preservation in its simple form.
In English, whittle down 9 options to 2 for color policies and change the logic between RGB and CMYK file handling. Convert to working space. Have the working space 32 bit Pro Photo RGB. Files flow into it as well as color space conversions. Now remember, this is a choice feature and not a force fit. It's a marketing born inception that caters to the masses for best practice. If you want to work outside that environment, its your choice, but it's not advisable unless you are resurrecting trash, re-assigning really bad pictures, or it does not work for your requirement and a new additional per-dim needs to be created. I'm offering a choice. Two choices to be specific. Road or off road travel. For here now, and tomorrow. It's a creature of growth, just like the implementation of Smart Objects that has morphed more possibilities as well as options. But Smart Objects is a representation of Adobe's expanded free for all mentality to push the envelope of development for market share. My advice is to back on the whizz bang wow factor and get some damn control of the features grained in deep rooted experience from power users....
Smart Photoshop is needed because users are not getting it Gentleman and Ladies. Expecting most users to become geeks is not going to happen. It's a given from a marketing stand point, but they refuse to see how to address it for one reason or another. Maybe too busy dealing with the company merge and product integration. Im pretty sure its quite an undertaking, but its time to make the best - better....…[snip]
[empasis mine—RGC]
Most excellent post Mike. Your point gets across loud and clear here, more so than in any other post of yours on this subject in the past. [Or maybe I've gained more insight and experience to understand you better now.]
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25. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Mike Ornellas Jun 27, 2009 9:01 PM (in response to Ramón G Castañeda)Actually, I thought is was not very clear and kind of full of superficial crap. It's a complex subject from an implementation point of view. Trying to explain concepts from a very large perspective is not simple math. These kind of subjects - Adobe tends to avoid due to the breath and scope of the problems.
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26. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Ramón G Castañeda Jun 27, 2009 9:13 PM (in response to Mike Ornellas)Just to clarify, I did not intend to suggest that the post by itself made everything clear, but it does make the message clear to me on the shoulders of the cumulative impact of all your previous contributions on the issue over the years, Mike. That's probably the way I should have phrased it.
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27. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Reynolds (Mark) Jun 28, 2009 6:29 AM (in response to Miguel Curto)Im not so sure that"Smart color managed Photoshop" makes any sense at all, sorry to say. For one simple reason - the most important everything needs be customizable. Its impossible to predict what a specific user will need, or what their 'best workflow' might be, and its essential to provide all the options. Trying to force people down some kind of nailed down route, as a default, contains more problems than it would solve. One thing thats not going to change in 8 bit is that mode conversion is damaging, and using a huge gamut space like ProPhoto would be an insane thing to do to the majority of users files.
In my experience (quite broad freelancing in many different environments over the years) 80% of people using Photoshop leave the defaults set for color management! So its sRGB and American Swop Coated standard. But does this create problems? actually NO, not for most users because "color management" as a serious objective, is generally little understood and ultimately rejected as a result. And these defaults are, for better or worse, quite carefully chosen for this reason. Now those of us that understand color management DO TRY to use the best practice, but most people don't bother. In the real world, its quite a small range of OUTPUT related jobs where color management generally becomes a serious issue- ( color correction, printing, non creative jobs I'm afraid)
Mike (Marian): Expecting most users to become geeks is not going to happen
Now that point I accept.
Now miguel has come up with an interesting concept, one which I had never even considered before…
Miguel: "convert to working space adjustment layer"
Its an extremely interesting idea. Not sure how it could work in mode to mode conversions though. Bringing the topic back to its subject - Thats where Smart Objects already serve some of these objectives.
Now back to to something that c.pfaffenbichler said earlier …
c.pfaffenbichler: is the conversion Intent for SOs of a different color-space than the containing document always Relative Colorimetric or can that be determined individually?
Maybe this SHOULD be a clear feature request
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28. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Miguel Curto Jun 28, 2009 7:07 AM (in response to Reynolds (Mark))Now miguel has come up with an interesting concept, one which I had never even considered before…
Miguel: "convert to working space adjustment layer"
Not sure how it could work in mode to mode conversions though.
The idea is that you wouldn't make conversions on the RGB data itself...Im sure it wouldn't take a major overhaul as things are.There would be a RAW RGB file and and an adjustment layer on top of it.If you need a conversion you just change it on the layer, thus preserving all RAW information,gamut,etc...to some extent I can do almost that as things are,only its somewhat more complicated: embed raw as SO and then convert parent file as many times I want without loosing any data...
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29. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Mike Ornellas Jun 28, 2009 7:25 AM (in response to Miguel Curto)Mark -
if you don't offer the customer anything better then a turd processor, the you shall only get turds from your clients. But then again, I make a huge amount of money at the expense of others. 3 cars, 3 houses. bank accounts, lavish vacations.....enough to not really care, just like the rest that has prospered from out of control development. It's the rest of the grunts that suffer...Accept or reject the idea - I really could care less, but the point is, things will not get any better until intelligent software is implemented. The majority of work does not need tons of features to make it viable. The real problem is the lack of focus on Adobes part to REALLY understand the markets that they cater to and refine systems to cater to those requirements. At some point, Adobe shall be no different then General Motors. Unfortunately, I don't think the US government will be able to bail them out...
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30. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Reynolds (Mark) Jun 28, 2009 8:35 AM (in response to Mike Ornellas)But then again, I make a huge amount of money at the expense of others. 3 cars, 3 houses. bank accounts, lavish vacations.
Bank accounts too? - still keep mine in a shoe box. Progress eh
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31. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Mike Ornellas Jun 28, 2009 8:45 AM (in response to Reynolds (Mark))Mark -
The point I'm trying to make is that you can continue your current workflow if you wish. I'm offering an alternative for people to migrate to if they choose. The workflow's shall change and morph as time goes by as well as additional ones added. Again, you can continue to shoot yourself in the head with the current mess, or step up to see if a color workflow works for your environment. If Adobe does nothing, then they are going to be a victim of their own creation.This goes way beyond color management issues. It's process control at the file stage to repurpose files for multiple outputs.
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32. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Reynolds (Mark) Jun 28, 2009 8:52 AM (in response to Mike Ornellas)lavish vacations.
- cool, I went to Blackpool with my grandmother one christmas in 1983. Sorry, you were saying?
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33. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Mike Ornellas Jun 28, 2009 8:56 AM (in response to Reynolds (Mark))I was saying that this is a great place to capture new images when I go in November. The diving is killer and the sand is white.
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34. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Reynolds (Mark) Jun 28, 2009 9:09 AM (in response to Mike Ornellas)Wow nice. Not sure if my Ferrari could cope with the heat though, worried my live-in house maid might lose interest in casual sex, whilst poisoned by Birds Nest Soup. And as for the tropical fishes… thats another story
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35. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Mike Ornellas Jun 28, 2009 9:14 AM (in response to Reynolds (Mark))You need to run a product called water wetter by red line. You can get it at any speed shop. It will drop the temp of the car a good 10 degrees. That should be enough to have it run cooler. I use it in my car and it works really well.
http://rides.highperformancepontiac.com/ride/1016668/ram-air-six/1968/pontiac/firebird/ind ex.html
As far as the maid, you can always get another one cuz they are cheap and hungry for work.
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36. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Richard Rose2 Jun 28, 2009 9:15 AM (in response to Mike Ornellas)Mike,
Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Cars, houses, bank accts, wimmen . . .
But can you pick up a strat and run off decent BB King riffs for a set or two? Huh?
Rich
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37. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Mike Ornellas Jun 28, 2009 9:20 AM (in response to Richard Rose2)I gave up playing the bass long ago. Not enough time or interest, but I do play piano.
oh - and I sold my purple flying V after college. Needed to eat...
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38. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Reynolds (Mark) Jun 29, 2009 12:00 AM (in response to Mike Ornellas)As far as the maid, you can always get another one cuz they are cheap and hungry for work.
Yeah damn they are hungry alright
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39. Re: Smart Objects: RGB inside CMYK
Mike Ornellas Jul 1, 2009 7:30 PM (in response to Miguel Curto)The distinction you make between following best practices in a solid workflow versus stepping out-of-bounds to solve an isolated problem is very good.
I rest my case!
My idea will work.





