-
1. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
Reynolds (Mark) Jul 17, 2009 6:58 PM (in response to f7design)"Converting color" is normal, after a save, and will always happen of you have a CMYK Smart Object embedded in an RGB document. It will happen on both machines, just may take LONGER on slower machines obviously.
Make sure your color settings Edit/Color settings are the same on both machines. If you are doing web design most people seem to be advised to choose sRGB (for better or worse). As for CMYK, make sure again you have the same settings.
So something like this…
Notice that "preserve embedded profiles" is chosen. This means that any files you open will retain their original profile. What MAY have happened is that someone set these to "convert to working RGB".
-
2. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
f7designer Jul 20, 2009 12:50 PM (in response to Reynolds (Mark))I figured it out! We got our heads together here and tried to come up to speed w/ our color management skills. Here's what we found: The CMYK Smart Object had "Don't color manage" selected in Asign Profile. So when I did anything to it and saved it it automatically converted to my CMYK working space. At which time I saw the shift since my co-workers CMYK color space setting was DIFFERENT! Even though her machine was wrong and not set up to sync with everyone else in the shop, I happened to like the color! So all I had to do was open the CMYK SO and go to Asign Profile and select Profile: (her color setting profile) and Viola! I could make my edits save & close and NO color shift.
What's weird to me is that I do have all the "preserve..." settings on, but I guess it still wants to convert to my CMYK working space, (if I don't resign the profile).
However now when I cont. to open and edit I will get another dialogue box telling me there's a color profile mismatch between the embedded image and my computers working space, at which time I just click "use the embedded profile"
-
3. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
Mike Ornellas Jul 20, 2009 12:57 PM (in response to f7designer)As they say - It's brilliant.
-
4. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
Reynolds (Mark) Jul 20, 2009 1:33 PM (in response to f7designer)F7 - You haven't actually understood this. Are your monitors all calibrated?
The CMYK Smart Object had "Don't color manage" selected in Asign Profile. So when I did anything to it and saved it it automatically converted to my CMYK working space.
No - you can't assign a conversion policy to a Smart Object. They don't have individual conversion settings, all they have is their embedded color PROFILE.
It wasn't working because, like I said and you never bothered to confirm, both of the machines have different color settings. You must have also had 'auto-convert' on. It shouldn't be on, it should almost NEVER be on if you are interested in color. Regardless of any crap you may have read in a dodgy old school book. Any smart Object will convert, if your master file has a different setting.
So all I had to do was open the CMYK SO and go to Asign Profile and select Profile:
Yep - of course, you re-assigned the original profile.
Re-read my original post again- especially the last paragraph. AND turn auto- convert in color settings off. As my very carefully prepared screen shot showed,
-
5. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
Printer_Rick Jul 20, 2009 3:04 PM (in response to f7designer)f7designer wrote:
What's weird to me is that I do have all the "preserve..." settings on, but I guess it still wants to convert to my CMYK working space, (if I don't resign the profile).
F7
When you don't assign the other profile, you are not seeing a conversion. Since the CMYK child document is untagged (# sign beside the color space and bit depth in the document window), it displays using your CMYK working space.
When you assign the profile that matches your colleague's working CMYK, no conversion there either. But the display CMYK is adjusted, and as long as both monitors are properly calibrated the color appearance is consistent.
Notice that when assigning a different profile, the number values in the image channels do not change, but the color appearance changes.
f7designer wrote:
However now when I cont. to open and edit I will get another dialogue box telling me there's a color profile mismatch between the embedded image and my computers working space, at which time I just click "use the embedded profile"
If you want to stop that you can un-tick "Ask When Opening" beside Profile Mismatches in your Color Settings. BUT...
Be aware of what this means. If the policy is "Convert to Working Space" Photoshop will perform a conversion (number values change) when you open an image with a profile different from your working space, without first asking your permission. If the policy is "Preserve Embedded", the only way you will know if a document profile doesn't match your working space is by looking beside the color space and bit depth in the document window:
1. No symbol, profile matches your working space.
2. #, no profile (untagged).
3. *, different profile.
Let me know if this doesn't make sense.
For this issue with untagged CMYK images, you may consider ticking "Ask When Opening" beside the Missing Profiles in your Color Settings. Then at least you will be alerted when you encounter untagged images.
-
6. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
Printer_Rick Jul 20, 2009 4:15 PM (in response to f7design)F7,
I re-read your original post, and now I fully understand what's going on and even recreated the problem.
This illustrates a very serious problem with Smart Objects, I'm glad you brought this to my attention.
SOs add non-destructive capability, but in the instance of untagged images it becomes a very dangerous game.
If I follow the OP correctly, the two workstations have a different Working CMYK in color settings. The parent document is RGB and the child document is untagged CMYK.
The document was built and saved on one workstation. Then opened on another. On the 2nd mac, the untagged child CMYK was opened, edited (no color change though), saved and closed.
On return to the parent RGB there is a color conversion, and the RGB number values change, even though there is no color change whatsoever to the CMYK child document.
I don't think it should work this way. This seems like a flaw. The only fix I see is for Photoshop to not allow untagged child documents. Whenever a child document is saved, if there is no profile tag, Photoshop should automatically embed the working space profile (just my opinion)
-
7. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
Dprog Jul 21, 2009 1:53 AM (in response to Printer_Rick)SOs add non-destructive capability, but in the instance of untagged images it becomes a very dangerous game.
untagged images are always dangerous, it's just that SO makes it worse. There is always this problem with untagged images... same as untagged embedded art work inside AI docs which do have a profile...(and your lucky if it's in the same colour mode as the intended output)
I haven't posted on this thread in a while, but whilst profiles (when they exist) are taken through, i can see that preferences on how those profiles are handled aren't... (which was 1/2 my point)... so is it safe to assume that conversion options aren't either (the other 1/2)? ie if use relative colourmetric, and someone else uses absolute, even though the profile preferences may be the same between us, i assume the SO can't tell the 3rd party's PS to use my conversion settings.... correct?
assuming that is the case, SO files then aren't suitable for press release... i know that Adobe's handling of profiles across their suite is akin to that of a ******* child, but this is like bringing it's mate off the street to stay for a bit while the parent's go on holiday.
someone please drag a load of adobe suite engineers (assuming there is more than 1), away from the cosy cushioned and sedated dribbling alpha team, and nail their hands and feet to the deck of a pre press shop for 3 months. Then I can see the app changing... until then, it's something that will be sold to togs who have little colour clue beyond their world, so they will happily pass their worshipped work further up the chain for someone to shred later because they simply opened and saved the file for someone quickly on their machine... and then someone with pre-press knowledge will go bald playing 'guess the assigned space and whether applies to it all, or just some bits before it was composited'
-
8. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
Printer_Rick Jul 21, 2009 5:53 AM (in response to Dprog)Dprog wrote:
I haven't posted on this thread in a while, but whilst profiles (when they exist) are taken through, i can see that preferences on how those profiles are handled aren't... (which was 1/2 my point)... so is it safe to assume that conversion options aren't either (the other 1/2)? ie if use relative colourmetric, and someone else uses absolute, even though the profile preferences may be the same between us, i assume the SO can't tell the 3rd party's PS to use my conversion settings.... correct?
You are absolutely correct and thanks for pointing this out, I was wasn't aware of the conversion options botching the color.
This is more of a train wreck than I thought. This needs to be patched right away.
The problem is a simple edit of the SO can cause a color numbers change in the parent file, correct? That's what I'm seeing. Why doesn't Adobe just lock the numbers of the SO in the parent doc? Wouldn't that solve the problem?
That way you avoid accidental these color changes. A user could still forcefully color correct the SO to change the numbers in the parent document, but if there is no color edit, the color in the parent doc stays the same.
-
9. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
Dprog Jul 21, 2009 6:05 AM (in response to Printer_Rick)hmm... i can see what your saying, but there's times when we've needed to shift the RGB space over to something else for embedded artwork, so i can't see SO being anything different... plus if your a sharp monkey and see that someone has slung on a default profile that is incorrect, then you need to be able to change it again.
the problem is that colour profiles are for those that understand them only, yet they are sold to everyone....and those that don't just panic and make snap (wrong decisions...monkeys and typewriters aside) and hose colour down the chain.
on the other hand i agree, you need to be able to lock down the profiles somehow, and adobe need to sort their default prefs out, and there needs to be an advanced menu for those that have some inkling of what they're doing, to avoid hosing colour.
but it's a crapshoot at the moment... i have no way of determining that even if my file isn't opened, some rip or 3rd party app doesn't screw around with it, or some printer doesn't strip...
CM inside the immediate bubble is fine for those that know it, for those that don't or those outside, its BROKEN (yes chris, BROKEN)... it does not fail safe. If it was a plane, you wouldnt fly in it but Adobe doesn't travel anymore...
-
10. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
Printer_Rick Jul 21, 2009 6:37 AM (in response to Dprog)Dprog wrote:
hmm... i can see what your saying, but there's times when we've needed to shift the RGB space over to something else for embedded artwork
If you are referring to the parent doc, and by shift you mean convert, then I agree the numbers of the SO in the parent color space should not remain locked in that instance.
But if all you are doing is editing the SO, then the parent numbers of the SO should remain unchanged. Also in the instance of an untagged SO - well they need to put a stop to that. Photoshop should include a profile "AUTO EMBEDDED" that corresponds with the original user's working color space. At least then the derailed train won't slip even further away from the tracks, right?
-
11. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
Dprog Jul 21, 2009 7:50 AM (in response to Printer_Rick)oic yes...
what could be done is a locked profile system, and then the unlock could be hidden, with one of those annoying checkbox messages that adobe seem enevr to want to get rid of that says "unlock colour profile and be prepared to meet they maker? yes/no"
-
12. Re: Color conversion upon editing Smart Objects (CMYK inside RGB)
Mike Ornellas Jul 21, 2009 9:34 AM (in response to Dprog)NO.
It will do no good.




