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1. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
FivePicaPica Jul 24, 2009 9:45 AM (in response to mattaca)You can do this by doing a GREP search and replace the slash with a solidus (fraction slash), and insert that into the GREP. 50/50 wouldn't have a solidus, I don't think. (My CMoS isn't at hand).
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2. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
FivePicaPica Jul 24, 2009 9:54 AM (in response to FivePicaPica)I realize my last post was unclear.
First,
Find and Replace
(?<=\d)/(?=\d)
with
⁄
Then in your GREP style
use the ⁄
For instances like 50/50, put in the regular slash.
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3. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
mattaca Jul 24, 2009 9:58 AM (in response to FivePicaPica)A solidus (is that what it's called?) looks different than it should, though. The weight is lighter and the angle is different. Below you can see three examples in the attached image: 1) the problem, 2) the problem as solved by a character style, 3) the problem as solved by a solidus. You can see that the slash does not match the slash in the title (which does not have a GREP style applied). These boxes are used all over the book and frequently have fractions in the running text, so removing the GREP style is not an option.
What I would like to do is have the slash look like the second example without having to override using a character style. Is there no way to override using local formatting?
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Picture 2.png 26.1 K
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4. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
pkahrel Jul 24, 2009 10:06 AM (in response to FivePicaPica)The OpenType fractions feature changes the slash to the fraction slash, so replacing it manually isn't going to help. What could be done is to add a hairspace after the slash. If that creates too much space, set that hairspace to 0.1 pt and the space isn't visible any longer. You can use a normal character style for that.
Peter
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5. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
pkahrel Jul 24, 2009 10:11 AM (in response to mattaca)> What I would like to do is have the slash look like the second example without having to override using a character style. Is there no way to override using local formatting?
Can you somehow predict which slashes should not be affected by the GREP style? Maybe the fractions apply to single-digit nominators/denominators, and double digits remain unaffected? In that case, \b\d/\d\b would solve it.
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6. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
P Spier Jul 24, 2009 10:12 AM (in response to mattaca)You missed the point, I think. The solidus is correct for fractions, so you want to use it in the fractions and set the GREP to look for a solidus instead of the slash. If you change the slash to solidus globally, you need to go back and change it back where you don't want it.
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7. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
FivePicaPica Jul 24, 2009 10:20 AM (in response to mattaca)The search and replace was so that the fractions that you want as opentype fractions stay OT. (When the fractions are converted the slash is replaced by the typographically correct solidus). So if you make a global change to all fractions, you need only to replace the solidus with a regular slash to get example 2.
Your GREP is structured to only catch fractions like 1/4 not 3/16. That might be worth repairing, Cookbooks (which it looks like you might be working on) tend to use single digit fractions for the most part so Peter K's solution is great, but there are always exceptions and once you hit 3/16 or 1/12 you'd come up against the same problem
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8. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
pkahrel Jul 24, 2009 10:21 AM (in response to FivePicaPica)Confusion reigns.
1. With "Fractions" applied, InDesign changes the slash to the fraction slash (or whatever it's called), so replacements won't do any good.
2. The terms "slash" and "solidus" mean the same, as do "virgule" and "slant", according to the Chicago Manual of Style and the Oxford Guide to Style. Neither provide a term for the 45-degree slash used in fractions.
>once you hit 3/16 or 1/12 you'd come up against the same problem
then \b\d/\d\d?\b might do it.
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9. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
FivePicaPica Jul 24, 2009 10:25 AM (in response to pkahrel)Unicode however does make the distinction between slash/virgule and slash/solidus.
http://designorati.com/articles/t1/typography/693/typography-words-of-the-day-slashes.php
And, it was Bringhurst I was thinking of, I guess.
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10. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
FivePicaPica Jul 24, 2009 10:30 AM (in response to pkahrel) -
11. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
pkahrel Jul 24, 2009 10:58 AM (in response to FivePicaPica)>My point was that if your GREP style specifically looks for the slash/solidus
Of course! You're absolutely right -- only now does it begin to sink in. That's a much better way to deal with it.
>And, it was Bringhurst I was thinking of, I guess.
He does indeed make that distinction. Ah, well, the distinction is useful even if it's not widely recognised.
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12. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
Jeremy bowmangraphics-DQuh1B Jul 24, 2009 11:48 AM (in response to pkahrel)--- frivolity warning ---
I've been following this thread with enjoyment and interest, not least because the greatest philosopher of the twentieth century (WVO Quine) wrote about the word 'solidus':
(As a non-understander of Latin, I gather that 'eheu' means "alas!" and 'fugaces' refers to the too-quick passage of time.
It seems to me that we need a new word for the fraction slash thing. I suggest we call it the "zorro".
--- all clear / frivolity warning over ---
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13. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
FivePicaPica Jul 24, 2009 12:03 PM (in response to Jeremy bowmangraphics-DQuh1B)Jeremy, Thanks for the info. I love reading stuff like this. It makes my day. What text is that from? I'd be interested in reading more...
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14. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
pkahrel Jul 24, 2009 12:20 PM (in response to Jeremy bowmangraphics-DQuh1B)Jeremy -- Nice quote, thanks. So Quine sides with the Chicago and Oxford style guides. P.
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15. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
FivePicaPica Jul 24, 2009 12:34 PM (in response to pkahrel)When it comes to numbers and equations Chicago doesn't say much. It seems to defer to the sadly out-of-print
Scientific Style and Format: The CSE Manual for Authors, Editors, and Publishers.
I keep my eye out for a copy when ever I remember it exists. I wonder what they have to say...
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16. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
mattaca Jul 24, 2009 12:34 PM (in response to FivePicaPica)Wow...thank you all! Of the options suggested, I think either adding a hairspace, or using \b\d/\d\d?\b is probably best. On very rare occasion, we may have fractions that use a 3/16 or 11/16 (in which case it would be a problem), but I still think that could work. I'm relucatant to use the fraction slash because we constantly pick up material from books or magazines and I don't think the solidus displays correctly when the fractions are unformatted. At least I suspect it is the solidus. I have always just called them "funky" slashes because they overlap the numbers and make it hard for me and the editors to read. I usually replace all with a regular slash and let InDesign convert them when Opentype fractions are turned on.
Back to my inital post though: is it not possible to locally override GREP styles? In other words, local formatting trumps all other text formatting, EXCEPT GREP styles? Just want to make sure I have it clear.
Thanks again,
Matthew -
17. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
Ildhund Jul 24, 2009 12:42 PM (in response to FivePicaPica)5pp:
Unicode however does make the distinction between slash/virgule and slash/solidus.
Apart from the solidus on your keyboard (u002F), Unicode has at least two other (forward) slashes: u2044 "Fraction Slash" and u2215 "Division Slash" (not to mention u2571 "Box Drawings Light Diagonal Upper Right to Lower Left" and u0338 "Combining Long Solidus Overlay"). The division slash is the one to use when both numerator and denominator sit on the baseline, the fraction slash when the numerator sits higher.
Noel
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18. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
mattaca Jul 24, 2009 12:46 PM (in response to Ildhund)Do all fonts have those characters? I don't want to use an obscure character that isn't in the character set of another font. Among the fonts we use regularly: Bembo, Gotham, Gill Sans, Gotham, Galliard, Century Gothic...
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19. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
FivePicaPica Jul 24, 2009 1:39 PM (in response to mattaca)I think most OT fonts have at least two distinctly drawn slashes.
The regular virgule slash and the solidus/division slash (which seem the same, though they may have different kerning settings). Noel's knowlege on the subject surpasses mine.
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20. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
Jeremy bowmangraphics-DQuh1B Jul 25, 2009 1:43 AM (in response to FivePicaPica)What text is that from? I'd be interested in reading more...
WV Quine, Quiddities, Harvard University Press, 1987 (p.126)
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21. Re: overriding GREP styles with local formatting
Ildhund Jul 25, 2009 4:31 AM (in response to FivePicaPica)5pp:
Noel's knowledge on the subject surpasses mine.
I doubt it, but it just happened that we had a discussion about the varieties of slash in a language forum last week - all to do with what symbols people use to signify minus and division. It's not typography, but anything you ever wanted to know about character encoding is probably at
Noel







