Who says Adobe customer support is all bad? Here's a happy camper:
http://forums.adobe.com/message/2152196#2152196
The first thread on this matter seems to have been deleted, presumeably by Mr. van Dieten
It is my assertion that Jochem van Dieten has abused his moderator's priveledges by innappropriately deleting threads and posts with which he does not agree. He has been rude not only to some of the more 'curmudgeonly' forum members, but also to those whom are not troublesome (Claudio, 'GreenJumpyOne' are two that spring to mind). He has been arbitrary-seeming in many of his decisions as moderator; he has shown himself hostile, uncooperative and on occasion childish. He has not, seemingly, been held to account for his reprehensible, unprofessional conduct, and is (IMO) a disgrace to Adobe Corp. He has no 'people skills' and is thus an exceptionally bad choice for the position of moderator.
If you agree, please say so. If possible, give some examples of Mr. van Dieten's behaviour which illustrate my assertions above.
I am posting this partly to give people who wish to have a venue to complain about censorship (and other) issues may do so without taking up more space in another thread.
I agree!
And I have posted my examples recently, both here and in other places as well.
And for the record, yes this topic is about the forum operation (so it needs to stay)!
Send a private message to JC as well. Mr. Deleten can't delete that.
I have sent a PM to a different employee.
Anyway, that employee I contacted is looking into the process and said that he/she would get back to me.
In the mean time I'm sending JC one too. Maybe others should as well.
I see you found it
Yes thank you... It took three searches, but I found it.
Message has already been sent.
I did assert that JVD was on occasion childish. Here is an illustration of both his childishness AND his rude behaviour:
JayJhabrix wrote:
In any event, you could well have remedied the situation by spelling out the name and asking me to kindly use the correct name in future.
I could have. I didn't. I will continue not to do so in the future. I am after all a poor, heavy handed host.
(The second quote is, of course, by JVD.)
Location in this thread:
Here is my response from JC:
The Forum Hosts come from the Adobe Community Experts program.
I will talk to Jochem, but right now I don't think he is totally out of line.
John
I replied back asking him if he has seen the deleted posts and if he has read the comments other users are making about his moderating skills.
Perhaps, everyone needs to take a few minutes today to send JC a message.
Now, the question I want to know is, who is in charge of the Adobe Community Experts program? (who gives a moderator his/her moderating status)
This is all I can find, no names or anything:
That first thread you mention, would that be
Thanks for linking to that thread. The post I was looking for was linked in that thread.
http://forums.adobe.com/message/2242730#2242730
The Poster here was dissatisfied with your moderation and I posted in that topic that they should visit the thread that you just linked http://forums.adobe.com/message/2184990 (how ironic), and I let that person know that he/she was not alone in their dislike of your moderating skills.
So Jochem, you care to tell everyone here where my responding post to that person went? It was in the Feedback forum which is where you told me that the post I brought up yesterday should have been left.
We are all entitled to an opinion. Just because it isn't something you like or is against you doesn't mean you have to delete it.
I disagree.
I do believe that Jochem has made a few mistakes in his moderation,
but only a few. If you refer back to the first posts on the subject,
as soon as there was moderation OF ANY KIND, everyone came down VERY
HARD, on anything Jochem did. The comments on this forum were getting
out of hand and moderation was needed without question. Jochem
responded at first to question why people came down so hard on his
moderation, and no-one gave him an intelligible answer.
In Jochem's position, I don't believe I would have done any better
than him -- probably much worse.
I have been subscribing to the Forum Comments since the forums
switched over, and have every post ever made here saved in email. The
only deletion I can think of which I don't agree with is the recent
issue with Ozzwoman. If anyone wants to question any deletions, I'll
be happy to refer back to the originals!
There's always going to be issues with clashing personalities, but I
believe it's unreasonable to expect a moderator to not be human. Why
should a moderator have to be subjected to constant ridicule, and not
be allowed to make any mistakes of his own? I think that all
considering, Jochem has exhibited tremendous self restraint in how he
responded to issues.
Harbs
That first thread you mention, would that be
Yes. I looked for it, but did not see it, for whatever reason; had I seen it I should certainly have bumped it rather than having created a new thread.
That post went to /dev/null. And if you scroll up in that thread you will see there is a message there that actually says:
ANN: if you wish to discuss moderation, do so in a dedicated thread in the Forum comments forum, not in a thread about another subject
Did it really come as a surprise that that message was removed?
Seeing as though the person had a direct issue with you, no. If that had been any other moderator the post would probably still be there.
Again, it just because someone has an issue with your moderating or disagrees with the way you do things does not mean that their post should be deleted.
Don't get me wrong here. I think you do have a lot of knowledge that can be very helpful. But since you have become a moderator it seems as though the power has gone to your head. You have had very few helpful posts in the last few months. Most of your posts coincide with the above issues and that is the reason that you are being singled out. I think you need to take a step back from the moderating side of things and try to be more helpful to those that are having genuine issues, instead of locking the threads and deleting posts just because you don't like what someone has to say.
I believe it's unreasonable to expect a moderator to not be human. Why should a moderator have to be subjected to constant ridicule, and not be allowed to make any mistakes of his own?
*Admitting* to some of those mistakes would give a much better impression of being human than we have seen so far. You seem to agree that mistakes have been made - I very much doubt that Jochem agrees with you. I have the impression of being moderated by a robot - albeit a 'humanly' touchy and sarcastic one.
Ozzwoman9 wrote on 9/16/2009 9:22 PM:
Again, it just because someone has an issue with your moderating or disagrees with the way you do things does not mean that their post should be deleted.
I think this forum contains hundreds of examples that show I really
don't have a problem with people expressing their disagreement. The
imperative words being "this forum".
If you have an issue with navigation and 'content-free' pages on the
Adobe.com website, you post in the Adobe.com feedback forum. If you have
an issue with i18n settings not carrying across between the forum and
the site, it is about both and you get to pick where you want to post.
If you have an issue with moderation, you post in the Forum comments forum.
It really is that simple.
Yes, Kath.
I agree with you that admitting to mistakes once in a while would go a
very long way. I don't have the same image of Jochem that you do, but
I can understand why you feel the way you do.
Harbs
Kath-H wrote on 9/16/2009 9:31 PM:
Admitting to some of those mistakes would give a much better impression of being human than we have seen so far.
Why would it be important that somebody is human?
You seem to agree that mistakes have been made - I very much doubt that Jochem agrees with you.
Mistakes are being made all the time. I would guesstimate that about 20%
of the threads I lock to prevent escalation would not escalate by
itself. But which ones? Yesterday evening I should have immediately
locked the "Adobe website and forums navigation" thread. But how was I
supposed to know somebody would start posting the same message there
over and over and that I would have to clean up after locking it to make
the repetitions stop?
When I write code, there is an error about every 10 lines (and those are
just the ones found during testing). Why would moderation be different?
But how was I
supposed to know somebody would start posting the same message there
over and over and that I would have to clean up after locking it to make
the repetitions stop?
It would not have been posted over and over again, had you not been deleting the post as soon as I was posting it.
You posted at 20:53Z, 20:55Z and 20:56Z, I locked at 20:56Z and deleted the messages afterwards.
Say what you want, but when I posted then refreshed the messages were gone.
Why would it be important that somebody is human?
And naturally when you can not find something, somebody has to be guilty. Just like the disappeared thread from the initial message of this thread.
If somebody at Adobe is willing to look at the log files the messageIDs are 2251068, 2251070 and 2251072.
You posted at 20:53Z, 20:55Z and 20:56Z, I locked at 20:56Z and deleted the messages afterwards.
...
Say what you want, but when I posted then refreshed the messages were gone.
I was right! It DOES smell like a Jive bug...
Considering you had just posted before I made that "repeat" post...
Why would it be important that somebody is human?
So you have no sense that you are dealing with people (who tend to be human) ????? It's all just dots on a screen?
Good Lord, DK might have been ineffectual, might have come by her Community Expert (in Creative Suite!) status who knows how - and bossy - but even she appeared to belong to the same species as the rest of us!
Kath-H wrote:
Why would it be important that somebody is human?
So you have no sense that you are dealing with people (who tend to be human) ?????
I am merely asking you why it would be important that somebody is human. I can think of many possible reasons for that, but instead of presuming a convenient one and attacking that one (a.k.a. a straw man attack) I am just asking you for yours.
The fact you can even ask the question speaks for itself.
The Forum Hosts come from the Adobe Community Experts program.
Most of these so-called "Experts" are so far removed from anything resembling being an "Expert" that the title is meaningless.
Allowing these people to become Forum Moderators was almost as bad an error as adopting Jive; and Jochem van Dieten is a prime example and is a major reason why I no longer contribute to these Forums.
He has driven away virtually every erstwhile worthwhile contributor to these Forums and the discussions are now so lacking in substance (as a result of losing the REAL Experts) that I very seldom even look at them any longer.
I whole-heartedly support the request to relieve Jochem van Dieten of his Moderator Status.
It's a pity a few more of the really helpful and knowledgeable people like Ann don't pop in and voice their disgust.
(Maybe not in this thread though.)
I avoid the use of the term "expert" since it has become tainted for me.
SIGNED in agreement to the OP.
jochemd wrote:
Harbs. wrote on 9/16/2009 9:51 AM:
I don't think there were any posts from Ozzwoman deleted. She tried to
post three times at the same time that this thread was being locked.
They were posted. The repeated posts were actually the trigger for me to
lock the thread: I had no idea of when Ozzwoman was going to stop
repeating the same message over and over again. Apparently it stopped
sometime between my lock and kanguyen's unlock.
To continue the discussion of 'moderation issues' started in another thread in a more appropriate place, this makes no sense. Why would Ozzwoman post the same thing over and over again unless the original was being deleted? Are you accusing Ozzwoman of spamming identical posts intentionally? Why would someone even do that? And if a second was somehow posted accidentally due to JiveBugs© or other issues, why delete both?
It's a pity a few more of the really helpful and knowledgeable people like Ann don't pop in and voice their disgust.
Unfortunately, you have probably lost many of them permanently.
Jochem actually had one of the most knowledgeable and prolific contributors permanently BANNED from all of the Adobe Forums — and that was after that person had given freely of his own time here for more than ten years.
Jochem's behaviour has been not only out of control but utterly outrageous; and it seems that JC has had the rug pulled from under him and no longer has much influence on how these Forums are run.
I think that all considering, Jochem has exhibited tremendous self restraint in how he responded to issues.
I disagree.
If, by "self restraint", you mean that JVD has not launched any great verbal tirades, from what I have seen, I would agree. I do not consider this, however, as self restraint on JVD's part; he comes across to me as emotionally shallow, and, IMO, you have to have a certain amount of emotional 'oomph' in you to flame someone.
But that aside, it is, IMO, Mr. van Dieten's tremendous lack of self restraint in the application of his powers of moderator which has, IMO, contributed greatly to the acrimony and hostility which now exist in this forum. Locking threads, or deleting posts was, in times before, used by the moderators very rarely, and usually to stop a conflict which was occurring. Mr. van Dieten, on the other hand, locks threads (it seems) if he perceives that they are "off topic", as in this thread: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2244541#2244541
Discussing the acts (real or imaginary) of Congress to make laws that
violate the first amendment here is off topic so I am locking this thread.
I think that is a pretty trivial reason to lock a thread, don't you? Mr. van Dieten seems to have some strange feeling that the forum will collapse, or something, if a thread or post he deems "off-topic" exists!
Now, you would have Mr. van Dieten to be made out as a victim here, but I would like to remark on how he has responded, on occasion, by attempts of forum members to be positive and helpful.
Who says Adobe customer support is all bad? Here's a happy camper:
http://forums.adobe.com/message/2152196#2152196
And Mr. van Dieten locked the thread.
Is that not remarkable and wondrous? That someone should attempt to lighten the mood with a post about a happy customer. In response, the moderator curtly says such things do not belong & locks the thread. Does this strike you as helpful? I hope not. Does it strike you as likely to cause hurt feelings/resentment? I commented on this at the time. My post was deleted.
Again, using the moderator's powers for trivial reasons. People get resentful when people in positions of power or authority use those powers trivially.
Imagine for a moment I were a moderator. Suppose I said "The topic of this thread is "JVD must be relieved etc." Your post was off topic so I am removing it. Please start your own thread called "JVD is doing a great job etc". How would you feel, I wonder?
One last example....
I did already quote how Mr. van Dieten, in response to a constructive suggestion from a forum member, said instead he would not, and would continue to not do so. In addition to being childish (one of the few human traits Mr. van Dieten exhibits), it also shows bad judgement, hostility, and it escalates conflict.
I have wasted enough time.
You think Mr. van Dieten has showed restraint? I disagree.
Ann Shelbourne wrote:
Jochem's behaviour has been not only out of control but utterly outrageous; and it seems that JC has had the rug pulled from under him and no longer has much influence on how these Forums are run.
Reminds me of a kid that just got his first job supervising other people. He hasn't learned how to do it yet (so goes way overboard) and has no idea how to relate to his employees.
First, JayJhabrix got banned from posting...
Now it's Jhabrix that's banned... and not a by your leave nor explanation! Someone is getting very personal and, for some reason, 'Jhabrix' seems to be like a red flag to a bull!
Ann Shelbourne wrote on 9/17/2009 2:46 AM:
Jochem actually had one of the most knowledgeable and prolific contributors permanently BANNED from all of the Adobe Forums
So who did I get banned this time?
Are there so many that you've forgotten?
@ Ann - I don't think this was down to just one mod, to be fair.
jochemd wrote:
So who did I get banned this time?
When you get a bad reputation, you get blamed for everything.
Are there so many that you've forgotten?
@ Ann - I don't think this was down to just one mod, to be fair.
Who ever was responsible (and I understand that Jochem was indeed one of them, if not the prime one) what was done was reprehensible and is a perfect illustration of the nasty, spiteful and thoroughly unprofessional atmosphere which now prevails in the Adobe Forums and underlines my choice to participate in Forums other than Adobe's these days.
If a company values its customers (and the individual to which I am referring has been an Adobe Customer for more than 20 years!) you do NOT treat them in that way.
The former Adobe Forums did a great deal to boost sales of Adobe's software.
How interesting that their current financials reflect a huge downturn in their bottom line and a major shortfall in CS4 sales.
Is it just co-incidence that this co-incides with the Micromedia-izing of these Forums; outsourcing Adobe Customer Service; replacing highly revered Adobe personnel with less competent Macromedia imports; and generally infuriating Adobe's long-term, and formerly extremely loyal, Customer base?
Add to that, the totally unfair pricing of their software in Europe (and the rest of the world beyond the USA) which has driven hoards of erstwhile loyal users of Adobe products in those countries to either boycott the CS4 Upgrade or to actively seek alternatives.
And now what do Adobe do but pay the earth for yet another Corporate Acquisition that is likely to be even more a drain on the company than was the ill-advised Macromedia "merger".
These Forums just reflect the general sickness that now envelops the once-great Adobe enterprise.