1 2 Previous Next 48 Replies Latest reply on May 9, 2010 12:38 PM by Fang Chang

    Announcing Commercial "Pay-per-Use" Pricing

    Fang Chang Level 2

      Hi all,

      To all those eager to hear about our pricing, I'm pleased to be able to share this with you all.  As of today, the LiveCycle Collaboration Service (LCCS) is available for purchase on a "pay-per-use" model -- worldwide!


      Live Stream Bandwidth$0.49 USD per GBUp/down live stream bandwidth, such as real-time audio and video. P2P stream via RTMFP is excluded though LCCS will gracefully switch connection methods if a P2P connection cannot be established or maintained.
      Push Messages$0.10 USD per 1KPush messages are data messages in to the service. Data messages out are excluded. Some examples of data messages include chat messages and shared cursors. Push messages assist in collaborative workflows between clients.
      User Minutes$0.01 USD per HourUser minutes is the amount of time that a connection is maintained to the service. If there are 3 connections maintained over a 5 minute period, the total user minutes for that session is 15 minutes.

      Note: Though multiple currencies are supported and your payment card will be charged in the appropriate currency, the developer portal interface and billing emails will be in English and USD only.


      For more detailed information around our pricing model, please see the attached FAQ.  Sign up now for a free account and/or upgrade your account now via our developer portal.


      For those who we can't get anything past, we'll explain the rebranding later...




        • 1. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
          coulix Level 1

          Great congratulation !


          One question how could we see our quota usage in chat and presence message vs the rest ?



          - Our 'Test' Edoboard button may stay to try the plateforme 'interface' only without AFCS connection.We were using AFSC even for the non shared demo.

          - The largest cost is connection time, we should add a 5 min inactivity timer to auto disconnect the user.


          hum .. I was reading 1cens a minute my bad.


          Otherwise it seems very afordable great !




          • 2. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing

            Will you offer a plan that is suitable for high usage clients.  I plan to use the service for hours a day, with 30 - 100 concurrent users at a time.  In that case the current pricing but not be that reasonable.  It might be more affordable to go with a connect pro pricing plan.  I think there should be an unlimited usage plan for example 100 concurrent users unlimited meetings or at least something similar.

            • 3. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
              Jinni Cao Level 1

              Great congratulations to LCCS team!


              BTW, are there any new features available along with 1.0 SDK released?

              I checked the release notes but only found the update for 0.94 and earlier.





              • 4. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                Hironmay Level 4

                Hi ,


                There are some bug fixes and whiteboard enhancements as far as SDK is concerned. There are new examples on whiteboard demonstrating them.




                Hironmay Basu

                • 5. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                  David_Welch Level 1

                  Can you give an example of how the "Live Stream Bandwidth" cost (non-P2P) would be applied, i.e.:


                    - 1 host and 1 participant using video for ten minutes streams X amount of up and down bandwidth, costing $XX

                    - 1 host and 1 participant using video AND audio for xx minutes...costs $XX


                  Also, where does the whiteboard fit in this, as a "Push Message"?  If so, an example cost of using Whiteboard, if applicable.


                  I think this would be very helpful for those (like me) who aren't familiar with the type and amount of actual data passing through the service.

                  • 6. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                    Nigel Pegg Level 4

                    Hi DB,


                      I think the best way to try this out is to use the Room Console, available in the developer tools tab of the SDK Navigator. Log into a room, and check out the "Logs" tab. Run and user your application on the same room, and watch the graphs and message count being displayed there. Note that the bandwidth graph is only the bandwidth down for one client, so you'll want to multiply it by the number of users you may have logged in for the final result.


                    Hope this helps,


                    • 7. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing

                      Hi, Fang/Nigel.


                      Any further thoughts on "behind the firewall" deployments of ALCS?




                      Rick Bullotta

                      Burning Sky Software

                      • 8. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing

                        why is the live stream bandwidth showing when my application does not have any video or audio? I was just testing the app and under live stream bandwidth it says 0.003 GB ?


                        Also about the user per minute section it says $0.01 per hour per user


                        so if user one connected @ 8am and user two connected at @ 8:30am @ 8:59am will this account be billed $0.01 for each user or will it only bill the one who has been on for an hour ? I'm trying to understand how this will work for application where you have users going in and most may not even stay for an hour...

                        • 9. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                          Raff. Adobe Employee

                          Bandwidth is bandwidth is bandwidth (and the term "live stream bandwidth" is confusing.

                          We count the size of the data sent and received (including data messages), so if for example you are transferring images as data messages they will count as bandwidth used.


                          User time is calculated as the total connection time of each user, so if you have one user connected for an hour and then another user joins for 30 minutes you will have 1h 30m of user time. Also, we bill for the total connection time for the month, so if you have users connecting to the rooms for only a few minutes at a time they will still contribute to your total connection time for the month and you will be billed for it.


                          Of course if you don't convert any application to "paid" you can still use the system for the equivalent of $15 of usage per month, so the best thing to understand how the pricing model work is to run some test application and check the usage.

                          • 10. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                            izunna Level 1

                            Thanks for the reply. I did run one of the chat application i'm developing through the system and it will be nice to have list of actions that might count as push message. E.g I only tested the application connecting to the server and the application connecting to one collectionnode. But it says  my push message is 254. So does this mean connecting to the server counts towards your push message count?. .. I didn't send any chat message. Just login and log out few times.

                            • 11. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                              Nigel Pegg Level 4

                              Hi Izunna,


                                You will incur a little bit of messaging hit for joining the room and publishing your presence (UserManager pushes a message to others in the room). A list of messages incurred by the framework itself is a good idea - we'll look into getting that documented. In general, it should be a pretty tiny amount of your cost.




                              • 12. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing


                                so AFCS is no longer free ?




                                • 13. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                  Raff. Adobe Employee

                                  We still have a free offering available for development and non-commercial use. With the new quota system you get $15 worth of free usage a month and if you need more or you want to bring your application commercial you can upgrade your account and select which applications you want to pay for and the maximum montly payment / usage you are willing to incur.

                                  • 14. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                    Mickey79 Level 1

                                    I am planning a video chat app, and this seems to be an affordable solution. Please confirm my calc.


                                    A room with 8 users, 1 user is multicasting to 7 others during 2 minutes. That is 8 streams altogether. Video is at 160 kbps, so here we go:


                                    8 streams * 160kbps * 120 seconds = 153 600 kbit / 8 bit = 19 200 kbyte = 18 Megabyte


                                    18 Megabytes is not that bad.

                                    • 15. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                      David_Welch Level 1

                                      Great, thanks for the post!  And, with P2P, almost nothing!



                                      • 16. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                        Fang Chang Level 2

                                        Hi Mickey,


                                        Yes - your calculation is correct.  The other pricing dimensions are additive though it should be inconsequential for your use case.  For example in user minutes, you have 8 users who are connected for 2mins, which results in a total of 16 user minutes.


                                        As for P2P, DBWelch is correct -- you can alleviate your bandwidth costs by taking advantage of P2P streaming.  However, there is a logical limit (see this thread here - http://forums.adobe.com/thread/536673?tstart=30) to avoid taxing clients.  We automatically switch from P2P to Hub-and-spoke so you can just always request P2P so when the number of connections is below the logical limit, you won't incur any bandwidth costs.




                                        • 17. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                          Mickey79 Level 1

                                          Wow, thanks guys. That is massively awesome.


                                          So basically, I wont even need to build a separate solution for Adobe Stratus to use P2P, but it is built into LCCS.





                                          • 18. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing

                                            Hi All,


                                            Below is our usage report for the LCCS. Can some one help me understand how adobe arrived at the figure $0.17 little confused with the push messages.



                                            Live Stream Bandwidth0.030 GB
                                            Push Messages1239
                                            User minutes188 minutes



                                            How many concurrent users are supported at any given point of time?



                                            Thanks in advance.




                                            • 19. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                              Fang Chang Level 2

                                              Hi Thresholdsoft,


                                              Sorry -- I'm not sure what your question is.  Concurrent users isn't a dimension that we meter against.


                                              0.030GB * $0.49/GB + 1239Msgs*$0.10/1K Msgs + 188Mins*$0.01/60Mins = $0.17




                                              • 20. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                Thresholdsoftware Level 1

                                                Thanks for the reply Fang.

                                                My other question was about.

                                                Let us suppose we are conducting a training session, is there any limit on the number of users who can log-in?



                                                • 21. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                  Fang Chang Level 2

                                                  There isn't a limit currently.

                                                  • 22. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing

                                                    Can I send video as binary data using NetGroup or BinaryPublisher? Will I be able to use P2P? Thanks!

                                                    • 23. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                      Raff. Adobe Employee

                                                      I am not sure I understand your question completely.


                                                      BinaryPublish publishes a binary "file" to our temporary local repository, so while you can upload a small video and share it (via download) for the duration of a session I don't think it's what you want to do in your use case.


                                                      NetGroup is one of the p2p features that will be available in FlashPlayer 10.1


                                                      LCCS does support p2p connections and p2p a/v streams and it will use the NetGroup feature for data sharing between peers (I think, I am not familiar with that part of the code, but in any case we will provide p2p data sharing when 10.1 will be available)

                                                      • 24. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                        tonyv2010 Level 1

                                                        hi Raff,


                                                        Thank you for the reply! Sorry for getting back to this rather late. Let me rephrase my question here.


                                                        I wrote an application on Stratus, which supports P2P data sharing among peers. It relies on NetConnection and NetStream, whose send() function is especially helpful. To connect to Stratus you just need to call NetConnection.connect(Stratus_address_+DEVELOPER_KEY). NetGroup, when released, will be very helpful too.


                                                        I wonder if such an application would be portable to LCCS?


                                                        Thank you very much!

                                                        • 25. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                          Raff. Adobe Employee

                                                          We are adding p2p data sharing to LCCS, that uses the same primitives you use to connect to Stratus and then establish p2p connections to peers (and we'll be using NetGroups to group peers)


                                                          So, yes, you'll be able to write p2p applications for data messaging that use the LCCS data messaging model. But you will not be able to reuse your low-level code you wrote for Stratus, since we don't expose the NetConnection interface.

                                                          The nice thing of using LCCS vs. Stratus is that your application can leverage both client-server and p2p configuration depending on the number of user connected and network conditions. Or, you can start with client-server configuration and then switch to p2p if you find out that your typical use case is, for example, a few users mostly on the same local network. Or start with p2p and later reconfigure for client-server if your typical use case is a large number of users, or users that normally are on networks that don't allow or perform poorly in a p2p configuration.

                                                          • 26. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                            tonyv2010 Level 1

                                                            I see. Thank you very much!

                                                            • 27. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                              tonyv2010 Level 1

                                                              Sorry to bother you with another question Raff, when you say "start with p2p and later reconfigure for client-server if your typical use case is a large number of users,...", do you mean you will switch to hub-and-spoke when the number of peers in one room are high? I am under the impression that P2P works better when there are more peers.


                                                              Thank you very much!

                                                              • 28. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing

                                                                I have some questions regarding the free usage and the monthly limits.


                                                                In the Dev Portal I currently have 3 "Applications". My "default" application says "Free" under "Montlhy Limit" and the others have a dollar limit.


                                                                1. Does that mean that the $15 free I get each month only is usage on my "default" application ?


                                                                2. Which again means that I can not have an application running that have $15 free usage and after that usage is billed ?


                                                                3. The limit I have set does that get reset on the first of every month or on the day I get charged ?

                                                                • 29. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                                  Fang Chang Level 2

                                                                  Hi tflx,


                                                                  1) Yes, but you can always assign another app to your FREE quota pool.

                                                                  2) Correct.  The idea is to let you keep your development separate from a live application.  So, you can always point your application to the Default app or any other that you've specified as FREE during development.  And, when you are ready to push it live, just point it back to the one you've specified.

                                                                  3) The limit resets on the day you get charged.




                                                                  • 30. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                                    jesperkc Level 1

                                                                    Okay - one more question then.

                                                                    Looking at "Usage this cycle" is that then usage since the last charge or usage since the first of the month?

                                                                    It should of course in my opinion be since last charge but I'm in doubt because when I open a Report for that application the begin date is the first of the month up till today.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                                      Nigel Pegg Level 4

                                                                      (Sorry for the delay, I'm coming back to speed after a vacation)


                                                                        You're right of course, the "cycle" refers to your billing cycle, which,

                                                                      if you've paid the $5 upgrade fee, starts on the day you made that payment

                                                                      (you're billed every month from that day). If it's a free account, we just

                                                                      use calendar months.


                                                                        Our reports could be smarter - you're able to change the range for the

                                                                      report graphs, which default to calendar months. I'm making a note that we

                                                                      should remember your billing date and use that for the graphs.



                                                                      • 32. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                                        jesperkc Level 1



                                                                        Another thing you should probably look into:

                                                                        I changed a Monthly Limit from $15 to $50. After I logged out and in again it said FREE.

                                                                        After another logout and login it correctly said $50 though.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing

                                                                          Two questions I really hope someone can answer. FYI I am building a simple 1-to-1 video/text chat, currently on Stratus, but sick of the downtime, etc..


                                                                          1) When a communicating over a p2p connection, are we still charged for messages?

                                                                          2) If I have 100 people randomly chatting with eachother, what percentage would you expect to fall back to hub-spoke?


                                                                          Thank you!

                                                                          • 34. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                                            Hironmay Level 4



                                                                            Currently we have p2p only for audio/video and not data messages.


                                                                            a) If you are using p2p for audio/video, then you are not charged for that stream. You are charged only for the connection time.


                                                                            b) Currently we don't have p2p for text chat. But in future when we provide that feature, you won't be charged for text chat for any number of users. However, for audio/video chat, it falls back to hub-spoke the moment its more than 3 people or someone doesn’t have player 10 or firewall.



                                                                            Hironmay Basu

                                                                            • 35. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                                              esteimle Level 2

                                                                              Hironmay, correct me if I'm wrong here but in scenario a), doing a p2p video

                                                                              call, you are still charged for "messaging" because you must still be

                                                                              connected to the LCCS service.  There are still control messages being

                                                                              passed back and forth almost like a sideband channel between the two peer to

                                                                              peer clients.  You won't be charged for the stream but there is still a

                                                                              smaller charge for the messaging in this case.  That's my understanding of

                                                                              how all this works anyway.



                                                                              • 36. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                                                campuslive Level 1

                                                                                This makes sense to me, though I don't see why messages couldnt be passed in the p2p stream as we do successfully with Stratus.


                                                                                My concern is really the amount of users that require the fall back to hub-spoke. The difference in cost with an app serving tens of thousands of users could be tremendous.


                                                                                Assuming we detect and force Flash Player 10.1+ use in our app, what % (very roughly) might we expect to have to fall back due to firewall issues?


                                                                                By debugging ChatRoulette's code I noticed they've increased their FMS server cluster from 5 to 12 boxes. My guess is there is a pretty large % of fallback for whatever reason.



                                                                                • 37. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                                                  esteimle Level 2

                                                                                  Yep welcome to my world, we worry about the same thing with our LCCS video

                                                                                  chat.  Besides if you could pass messages over p2p, how could they charge

                                                                                  you for connect time?  I forget how but you can force no hub and spoke if

                                                                                  you want.


                                                                                  Oh and btw, this might not apply to you but right now you can't do video and

                                                                                  audio chat with three people without getting forced into hub and spoke.

                                                                                  Something to do with the maximum number of p2p streams that are currently

                                                                                  allowed before fall back.  One of the guys mentioned changing that in a

                                                                                  future release though.


                                                                                  I've been assuming (dangerous I know) that firewall/NAT fall back will

                                                                                  happen whenever someone is behind a symmetric NAT, a dual NAT or a very

                                                                                  restrictive firewall.  So that would be users in some corporate environments

                                                                                  (certainly not our small startup office), and probably home users running

                                                                                  firewall programs on their PC that are set to be very restrictive.  So hard

                                                                                  to come up with a percentage really, but I'd wager that most people who are

                                                                                  just behind typical home routers will be just fine.



                                                                                  • 38. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                                                    Nigel Pegg Level 4

                                                                                    First up, for P2P audio/video chat, as long as you're just doing 3 people

                                                                                    or fewer in a room, and they all have permissive firewalls, you'll be fine.

                                                                                    We are adding P2P data, likely within the next 2 months (it's more

                                                                                    complicated for us, since we wanted to fit it properly within our existing

                                                                                    dev model). As Basu says, you won't be charged for P2P usage. I'm making a

                                                                                    note that one of the features we should add in is the ability to prevent a

                                                                                    user from connecting unless they can get RTMFP to work.


                                                                                      That said, in all cases, you'll still have some control messages sent hub

                                                                                    and spoke (for example, for setting up the peer connections), and you'll

                                                                                    still have connection time charges (RTMFP still requires a persistent

                                                                                    connection to the service, which eats a small portion of our capacity).




                                                                                    • 39. Re: Announcing Commercial Pricing
                                                                                      esteimle Level 2


                                                                                                Can you clarify this statement " First up, for P2P audio/video chat, as long as you're just doing 3 people or fewer in a room, and they all have permissive firewalls, you'll be fine."


                                                                                      In a previous thread where I asked about three man a/v chat I asked:


                                                                                      Is there a limit on the number of P2P streams allowed by the flash player?    I've got three way video chat working and there's a message in my debug log that says:  "The total stream limit for P2P streams have"   and then it cuts off.   I grepped the source and didn't find that warning/error message.


                                                                                      So I'm guessing it's about to tell me the number of streams have been reached?   Beyond the fact that 3 upstream video chats is probably all most connections can handle, is this a hard limit in the player or a soft limit based on available bandwidth?


                                                                                      Thanks for the help.




                                                                                      To which Hironmay later responded:




                                                                                      If you are doing both audio and video for all three , It won't work. However, if you are doing only video then all three can share video.


                                                                                      So, the logic says the number of streams of any user multiplied by number of other users (except him) should not be greater than 3. So, if I am sharing both audio and video and there are two more people, then it becomes 4, which makes it fall back to hub-spoke.


                                                                                      Hope this helps
                                                                                      Hironmay Basu


                                                                                      To which you responed:


                                                                                      Yeah, in this case, for every user that's receiving your stream, you have
                                                                                      to stream separately to them. So if I'm videochatting with 3 folks, I'm
                                                                                      pushing 3 streams - it's a lot for most uplinks to handle (many have their
                                                                                      hands full with just 1).


                                                                                      What we could consider doing is adding an API to StreamManager, such that

                                                                                      you could declare the stream limit and override how much pushing you think

                                                                                      your users can handle.




                                                                                      So does this mean you  have removed this restriction or that there is a new API in StreamManager I need to look up and add to our code?

                                                                                      Not trying to be a d*ck just want to make sure I'm on top of things.


                                                                                      Thank You,


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