10 Replies Latest reply: Nov 23, 2010 9:23 PM by BJBBJB1 RSS

    5.1 (pseudo) mix from HDV stereo audio

    BJBBJB1 Community Member

      I have done lots of research on this....and the folks in the encore forum have helped me figure out how to render my 5.1 mix to a Blu-Ray disc.

       

      However now I have an editing issue....

       

      I used the Adobe tutorial on how to setup a 5.1 sequence....I setup a new 5.1 master sequence, and told it I want 6 5.1 channels.  I then copied the same audio track to each of the 6 channels in the project window.  If I use submix channels, I guess you don't get the front/rear puck per the tutorial so I need 6 masters?  It is clear that you need to choose 5.1, but not so clear on if you are importing stereo audio, how many master and submix tracks to setup.

       

      I want to take my stereo channel mix, and "spread it" across the 5.1 sound stage. I know this is not true 5.1, but I don't care.  I have done this with a much lesser NLE and if the rear channels are low, it provides a nice mix.

       

      I think I am missing some of the steps though....do I need to separate my stereo captured HDV audio into mono or just leave it as stereo???

       

      And regardless, once I had my 6 channels, and moved the pucks around, it was not outputting 5.1 to my PC speaker system.  It is a 5.1 setup with a Creative X-FI titanium sound card.  I do get 5.1 during editing from my other NLE.

       

      I have read all the help files about choosing my audio hardware betweem WDM sound and Creative ASIO.  However neither choice provides me audio out of my rear speakers during editing.

       

      I then read that I need to setup my audio output mapping....and I need to "Drag the desired sequence channel tile into line with the desired hardware channel in the list."  However I only have Speakers listed twice....and they only appear to be left and right.... Even though I have 6 audio channels in the sequence and a 5.1 sound card and speaker setup.

       

      So the questions are:

      1) What do I need to change to hear 5.1 audio during editing.

      2) For what I am trying to do, should I be splitting my captured audio into mono channels or leaving it as stereo.

      3) How do I setup my 5.1 sequence in order to achieve my goal.

       

      I apologize if this is something simple.  I have done the reading and research and cannot get it to work...

       

      I feel like I am pretty close to being able to transition to this much more powerful tool.  The video side is pretty straightforward.  However I am having issues on the audio side.

       

      If this was CS4 and a photo question, I could probably answer that!!!

      Thanks,

      BJBBJB1

        • 1. Re: 5.1 (pseudo) mix from HDV stereo audio
          Bill Hunt CommunityMVP

          OK, am I correct that you have a single 2-channel (stereo, or dual-mono) Audio source stream?

           

          I would create a Project/Sequence with a 5.1 Master and two Stereo Audio Tracks. Place an instance of the 2-channel Clip on each of the two Audio Tracks. Now, in Audio Mixer, locate the two Clips on the "sound stage" with the pucks for each Audio Track.

           

          I would use the Center Channel dial on the first one (Audio Track 1) to boost the feed to the Center Channel a bit, but leave set to zero in the Clip on Audio Track 2. I would add a bit of the Audio Track 1 feed to the LFE, but not too much.

           

          Now, add the Stereo Audio Effects>Reverb and Delay to the Clip on Audio Track 2, and probably attenuate it a couple of dB down from the Level in Audio Track 1. Experiment with the settings on these two Effects.

           

          PrPro does not allow for the pure creation of the LFE Channel, but you can do this in Audition, if you use 6 discrete Channel sources in a Multi-track Edit. I use this for creating DTS streams, to be used as supplementary streams in Encore.

           

          This should get you good faux 5.1. Now, Exporting this way will require the SurCode DD 5.1 SS plug-in. There is an article around on doing a "poor man's DD 5.1 SS," but I have never tried it, as I have the SurCode DD 5.1 SS plug-in, plus the SurCode DTS encoder. I will look for that older article.

           

          Good luck,

           

          Hunt

          • 2. Re: 5.1 (pseudo) mix from HDV stereo audio
            BJBBJB1 Community Member

            Bill,

             

            As usual, thanks for your great advice. This worked like a charm!  I am almost there!

             

            For others having an issue with hearing 5.1 through their x-fi sound card, I had to change the "mode" to

            "audio creation mode".  This seemed to allow PP to identify it as a true 5.1 card and populated that setup screen with all the speakers.

             

            I did have an issue with the center channel when I tried to use the stereo channel that fed the left right speakers to control the center level also as you suggested....as I changed the center level, it seemed to "shift" my left and right channel mix also to one side or the other when I changed the center level balance (perhaps I had a setting wrong?).  What I really would like to do is get the sound that is the same in the left and the right channels, to come out through the center and be able to control the level.

             

            I tried this.  Not sure if this is putting too much of the discrete left and right sounds into the center (or if it is?), but by setting the center at 100% on one of the stereo channels, and putting the puck right ON the center, I was able to control just the "mixed" center channel volume with the overall gain  However like I said, not sure if it is putting EVERYTHING from the left and right channels into the center then vs. your initial suggestion.  Again, of course I would like to get the exterme left and right panned sounds out of the center if possible.  So which method does that?

             

            In this scenario, I used the other stereo channel for the left/right and surround balance by moving the puck with THAT center set at zero.

             

            I plan on using Surcode but if I can just do my audio in PP, other than special band type mixes, I will probably not go through Audition for regular audio work.  So it sounds like if that is the case, leave LFE off, and let it put the bass in the regular mix which I assume is what it does.

             

            Thanks,

            BJB1

            • 3. Re: 5.1 (pseudo) mix from HDV stereo audio
              Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
              I did have an issue with the center channel when I tried to use the stereo channel that fed the left right speakers to control the center level also as you suggested....as I changed the center level, it seemed to "shift" my left and right channel mix also to one side or the other when I changed the center level balance (perhaps I had a setting wrong?).  What I really would like to do is get the sound that is the same in the left and the right channels, to come out through the center and be able to control the level.

               

              OK, let's give this a try.

               

              Add another Audio Track plus a Submix Track, set to Mono. Copy your 2-channel source file into that new Audio Track, like we did for the Rear Channels. Now, map that new Audio Track to the Submix Track. In Audio Mixer, for the Submix Track, set the puck to the very front/center slot. Now, adjust the Center Channel dial only to feed a slightly lower percentage of that signal to the Center Channel (should go to 100% by default). Listen carefully, and test frequently.

               

              How does this work for you?

               

              Good luck,

               

              Hunt

              • 4. Re: 5.1 (pseudo) mix from HDV stereo audio
                BJBBJB1 Community Member

                I will give this a try.  This sounds very similar to what I was trying to do

                by setting up another stereo track with the puck right on the center channel and adjusting the center volume.  I did not get the shift, but I am pretty sure I am getting the sum of the L+R this way, vs. the phantom center routed to the center ch.

                 

                So it seems what you have recommended is to add a submix track to this and do the same thing I was doing on the stereo track on the submix.

                 

                Since I understand mixing consoles, and audio ,it is funny trying to translate my analog (or actually sometimes digital mixer) world into PP.

                 

                Anyway, just curious internally what the submix step is doing differently than what I get with just doing it with another stereo channel like I tried to describe.

                 

                This is fun, and I will try it tomorrow.  Thanks again,

                BJBBJB1

                • 5. Re: 5.1 (pseudo) mix from HDV stereo audio
                  Bill Hunt CommunityMVP

                  In this case, the Submix is combining the 2-Channel Audio stream to 1-Channel (Mono). If you had a Mono signal, I would dispense with the Submix. Now, one could possibly dispense with it and just let the Audio Mixer compress (not the Audio Compressor Effect - to be clear), but I like to take any variables out of the "mix," pun intended.

                   

                  One could also Open the 2-Channel source file in Audition, and then convert it to Mon (1-Channel) and use that Save_As file as the source. I was trying to keep it all in PrPro, but achieve the same exact result.

                   

                  Does that not pinpoint the Center Channel signal for you? Remember, pot it down a tad, so that it does not intrude. I like this better than the phantom Center, that one gets with just the Center dial. I feel that it offers more control. Often, I will split my front 2-Channel and isolate it, with zero Center feed, and little, if any phantom Center.

                   

                  OTOH, with a dialog-rich 2-Channel signal, often the boost of the phantom Center works well. Depends on the source. One Project might cry out for one treatment, and the next for another. Depends on the source material, the mic'ing and the Audio team, plus what I get to work with.

                   

                  In the end, it's about giving the listener/viewer the right "feeling," and nothing else. At least in my book.

                   

                  Good luck, and please let me know your feelings. You obviously know your way around a mixing console, and I will be very interested to hear what you decide on.

                   

                  Hunt

                  • 6. Re: 5.1 (pseudo) mix from HDV stereo audio
                    BJBBJB1 Community Member

                    Bill,

                    Thanks!

                     

                    Yes, the submix does indeed seem to give a little more of a "discrete" center.  I did notice that as you lower the center channel percentage, it does then start feeding sound to the left and right speakers.  However I do like it a little better than just using another stereo channel without the submix to control the center.  It seems to be a little more crisper and discrete.

                     

                    But like you said when you don't want that discrete center, perhaps one stereo channel for the L/R and surrounds with no center and one stereo feed with the center tweaked down again would work.

                     

                    Thanks again. Onto the project and back to your posts on outputting to Encore in 5.1 to Blu-Ray!!

                     

                    BJBBJB1

                    • 7. Re: 5.1 (pseudo) mix from HDV stereo audio
                      Bill Hunt CommunityMVP

                      You are doing just as one should - listen carefully and adjust judiciously. Multi-channel mixing is about 70% art and 30% science. Also, so very much depends on ones intent and on the source files. Even with some very simple faux 5.1, I seldom do it the same twice. Each Project needs personal attention, at least to create my "vision."

                       

                      Good luck,

                       

                      Hunt

                      • 8. Re: 5.1 (pseudo) mix from HDV stereo audio
                        BJBBJB1 Community Member

                        Bill,

                         

                        I typically do not resurrect old threads but there is so much good stuff here, I could not see starting a new thread!

                         

                        I have been using this pesudo 5.1 technique with great success!  However, the constant issues I have with transitions and having multiple audio tracks is really weighing on me.  I am constantly creating audio sync issues when I insert transitions, or nudge an audio track by mistake, etc..

                         

                        I am wondering if you have had much luck with any approach that limits the number of audio tracks.

                         

                        Something I am toying with is having a 5.1 master track and feeding it my straight stereo input. Then moving the puck about one third of the way back from the front soundstage, and then using the center channel control to boost the center to a good level.  This gives me a bit of a rear channel, a stereo soundstage, and I can control the center channel. Of course I cannot apply a delay to the rears using this method, but that is a minor loss.

                         

                        However I do miss the very discrete mix for the front, center and surround of the other method. So is this the best I could do given my current goal of limiting the number of audio tracks on the timeline?

                         

                        If I could feed two or three submixes with one stereo track source, that would be nice and allow me to do what I want with only one stereo track on the timeline, but I don't think you can do that can you??  If you could keep the puck available on the audio track that then feeds the submix, that would also help.  But as soon as you assign a track to a submix, you lose the ability to control the soundstage for that track.  All control passes to the submix unless I am missing something.

                         

                        The bottom line is any time I have 2 or 3 audio track copies of my original audio source spanning an hour or more, it gets unwieldy.  I am okay using additional audio tracks for music or sound effects, as they are short in length.

                         

                        As always, any ideas most welcome!

                         

                        Bill

                        • 9. Re: 5.1 (pseudo) mix from HDV stereo audio
                          JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                          Damn!  I saw this thread header and thought we might be discussing Upmixing software.

                           

                          If anyone cares to go down that road, please share.

                          • 10. Re: 5.1 (pseudo) mix from HDV stereo audio
                            BJBBJB1 Community Member

                            Sorry about that.... however I have been able to translate some of my audio mixer knowledge into futzing around with sends and submixes in Pr Pro to try to get close to where I want.

                             

                            Hopefully Bill has some more input.

                             

                             

                            BJBBJB1