11 Replies Latest reply: May 3, 2010 1:50 PM by Arrow'd RSS

    Separation problems using CS3 built files in CS4

    Arrow'd Community Member

      Hopefully someone here can steer me in the right direction before I document the whole sordid ordeal for submittal directly to Adobe.

       

      My company produces trading card games.

      The cards are all exported from InDesign as individual PDFs rather than a running document of several hundred pages.

      Each card typically consists of:

      • a background Photoshop TIFF
      • two small Illustrator EPSs
      • text typeset in InDesign

      The files are built with the standard CMYK setup but with the text as a separate spot black.

      The text is set to overprint so it doesn't knock out of the other plates and to facilitate translating the text into other languages.

       

      The cards have always been built this way.

       

      Now the problem.

      Occassionally cards from previous sets are pulled from the archive and included in newer sets or used in other documents such as rulebooks.

      PDFs that were built in CS3 separated and printed as intended when they were re-released in the CS3 environment.

      Now we've reached back into the archive to reprint cards from the CS3 days, however, when those same PDFs are placed in a CS4 document or setup in the printer's grid using a CS4 environment, the black text that isn't supposed to knock out of the other plates is now knocking out.

       

      To have to go back to the original CS3 InDesign document and rebuild the document to accomodate CS4's separation glitch defeats the purpose of using a PDF as a production file, and effectively renders every file built before the CS4 transition obsolete.

       

      Anyone else have this problem or have an idea what may be causing it?

        • 1. Re: Separation problems using CS3 built files in CS4
          P Spier CommunityMVP

          Are you really using two black plates? Unless you change it in the prefs the default [Black] swatch always overprints at 100%, so there isn't much reason to go to the trouble of adding a spot plate and setting it to overprint unless you really are using a special spot black ink in addition to the regular K plate.

           

          When you open one of these older files that is giving you trouble in CS4, have you checked the attributes panel to see if the overprint is still active? My bet is that it's being ignored in the RIP.

          • 2. Re: Separation problems using CS3 built files in CS4
            Arrow'd Community Member

            We use two black plates to facilitate translating the files into different languages.

            So the breakdown is:

            • CMYK
            • Text Black spot plate (100% black)
            • Typesetter Notes (outside the bleed, this plate is never output)

            Having a separate text black plate means the CMYK plates never change from one language to another. We only output one plate per language after English.

             

            Attached are example images.

            • 01_Acrobat_Seps.png—This is the original CS3 export PDF opened in Acrobat, it separates correctly, the text which will land in the field below the illustration will overprint
            • 01_Acrobat_Seps.png
            • 02_INDD_CS3_Seps.png—This is the original CS3 export PDF placed in CS3, it separates correctly

            02_INDD_CS3_Seps.png

             

            • 03_INDD_CS4_Seps.png—This is the original CS3 export PDF placed in CS4, it does not separate correctly, the black is knocking out instead of overprinting

            03_INDD_CS4_Seps.png

             

            • 04_AI_CS4_Seps.png—This is the original CS3 export PDF opened in Illustrator CS4, it does not separate correctly and in the next image we can see why

            04_AI_CS4_Seps.png

             

            • 05_AI_CS4_Overprint_Preview.png—Shows the overprint fill box is not checked

            05_AI_CS4_Overprint_Preview.png

             

            • 06_AI_CS3_Overprint_Preview.png—This is the original CS3 export PDF  in Illustrator CS3, and the overprint box is checked

            06_AI_CS3_Overprint_Preview.png

             

             

             

            I'm also able to open earlier PDFs (CS1) in the same manner and get the same results—it works until CS4 then it all goes pear-shaped.

            So somewhere between CS3 and CS4 there was an alteration made regarding how the applications handle the colors and I can't figure out where that may be.

            • 4. Re: Separation problems using CS3 built files in CS4
              WestBrantGuy Community Member

              Question: Can you open the original CS3 file in CS3 then export it as an interchange file, then work with it in CS4?

               

              What work-flow software are you using? Often the solution can be found there. For example, I use Apogee, I would go Edit>Plan>PDF Render-Trap>Inks>[select the spot black]> uncheck 'automatic'>[set 'colorant type' to 'Transparent'. This will overprint that spot colour.

              • 5. Re: Separation problems using CS3 built files in CS4
                P Spier CommunityMVP

                This is indeed very puzzling, and you may well be correct that there is something happening in CS4 that didn't happen earlier. I have two questions, though, to help figure out the workflow.

                 

                First, how was the PDF made from CS3? Was it made in Illustrator or ID, and what settings were used? I think we need the complete workflow.

                 

                Second, if the text was added in ID CS3 origianlly, why aren't you opening the CS3 file rather than placing the PDF?

                • 6. Re: Separation problems using CS3 built files in CS4
                  Daniel Flavin Community Member

                  I tried last night, and again today and cannot make this happen. You look to be using a Mac, and there's been quite a lot noted recently about printing to pdf being broken under the current system updates, but Export to pdf being fine.

                  I have applied everything I could to break ID's spot black plate, exporting to Press Quality, x1a, Hi Quality and Smallest File Size; all respect the spot black overprint. Bear in mind, my doc color space is cmyk, graphics are a mix of rgb and cmyk.

                  All patches applied, CS3 5.0.4  CS4 6.0.5 (patched today, same results with 6.0.4)

                  Would like to see screen shots with some of your relevant panels open - Swatches, highlighted text and Attriributes Panels

                   

                  Spot Seps 2.png

                  • 7. Re: Separation problems using CS3 built files in CS4
                    Arrow'd Community Member

                    The place/import options check box has no effect one way or another.

                    • 8. Re: Separation problems using CS3 built files in CS4
                      Arrow'd Community Member

                      The files were built in ID CS3, exported as EPSs, then converted to PDF using Distiller. This has been the workflow for the past several years.

                      Initial tests exporting PDFs directly from ID were unsatisfactory.

                       

                      Remember these older PDFs are being placed into other (CS4) documents such as rulebooks and player's guides.

                      To enable the designers' access to the cards they are saved as individual PDFs on a central server.

                      The native ID file, and its approximately 750 links, is archived and removed from the typesetter's machine to save space.

                       

                       

                      P Spier wrote:

                       

                      This is indeed very puzzling, and you may well be correct that there is something happening in CS4 that didn't happen earlier. I have two questions, though, to help figure out the workflow.

                       

                      First, how was the PDF made from CS3? Was it made in Illustrator or ID, and what settings were used? I think we need the complete workflow.

                       

                      Second, if the text was added in ID CS3 origianlly, why aren't you opening the CS3 file rather than placing the PDF?

                      • 9. Re: Separation problems using CS3 built files in CS4
                        Arrow'd Community Member

                        I'm currently documenting the entire process for submission to Adobe (thought I would start here in the hopes I could get a more immediate response), I'll post it here as soon as it's compiled.

                        Daniel Flavin wrote:

                         

                        I tried last night, and again today and cannot make this happen. You look to be using a Mac, and there's been quite a lot noted recently about printing to pdf being broken under the current system updates, but Export to pdf being fine.

                        I have applied everything I could to break ID's spot black plate, exporting to Press Quality, x1a, Hi Quality and Smallest File Size; all respect the spot black overprint. Bear in mind, my doc color space is cmyk, graphics are a mix of rgb and cmyk.

                        All patches applied, CS3 5.0.4  CS4 6.0.5 (patched today, same results with 6.0.4)

                        Would like to see screen shots with some of your relevant panels open - Swatches, highlighted text and Attriributes Panels

                         


                        • 10. Re: Separation problems using CS3 built files in CS4
                          P Spier CommunityMVP

                          What, exactly, was unsatisfactory about exported PDF?

                           

                          And what eps export distiller settings do you use?

                           

                          I know you aren't wanting to go backwards here, but if the CS3 files have the text on a separate layer, have you tried placing the pages from the .indd rather than PDF?

                          • 11. Re: Separation problems using CS3 built files in CS4
                            Arrow'd Community Member

                            The direct PDF export degraded some of the Photoshop transparency effects as well as some other effects applied in ID.

                             

                            I'm compiling the entire workflow right now and will be submitting both here and directly to Adobe ASAP.

                             

                            P Spier wrote:

                             

                            What, exactly, was unsatisfactory about exported PDF?

                             

                            And what eps export distiller settings do you use?

                             

                            I know you aren't wanting to go backwards here, but if the CS3 files have the text on a separate layer, have you tried placing the pages from the .indd rather than PDF?