27 Replies Latest reply: Aug 4, 2010 9:10 AM by Jrm125 RSS

    Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?

    {KMS} Community Member

      I have been enjoying the performance gain of using the GPU on my graphics card (GTS 250) even though it is not officially supported. I have found that some timelines that take the CPU to 95% in software mode play back using only 25% using the GPU.

      I have found only one anomaly so far and I am not sure if it is specific to the mercury playback engine using hardware, using an unsupported card, or just my card/system in particular.  If I place large (over 4,320 pixels alone the long edge) Jpeg pictures on the timeline (DSLR 1080p @29.97), animated the position and scale using the standard motion effect and apply a cross dissolve, the MPE using hardware will crash during export or bring it to a very slow grind.  It is the only case that I have found where exporting in software mode is much faster.

      However, if I reduce all the images so that the longest edge is below 4,000 pixels, the speed of the MPE using hardware returns and exports work fine.  I am curious to here if others have noticed any performance lag/problems from using large images?

       

      PPRO CS5 5.0

      Nvidia GTS 250

      Nvidia Driver Version 197.?

       

       

        • 1. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
          the_wine_snob CommunityMVP

          Why are you using such large still images? Is there a compelling reason for doing so?

           

          If there is, you will find that AfterEffects will handle these much better, than will PrPro.

           

          If there is not, then this ARTICLE might prove useful to you. It will also give you a bit of background on the Scaling algorithms in PrPro vs those in PS.

           

          Good luck,

           

          Hunt

          • 2. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
            Harm Millaard CommunityMVP

            Image size is limited to 4000 x 4000 pixels max.

            • 3. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
              Ann Bens CommunityMVP

              For CS5 Frame sizes cannot exceed 16 megapixels.

              Try and make your still the same size as your sequence, if you want to do some panning or zooming make it twice the size of the seqeunce settings.

               

              BTW: update to 5.0.1

               

               

               

              Message was edited by: Ann Bens

              • 4. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                {KMS} Community Member

                I have done a little looking around in the PPRO CS5 Manual and it states that the maximum image size is 8,000 x 10,000 pixels (80 Megapixels).  It looks like the 16 megapixel limitation is a thing of the past.  The manual also indicates that it is a good idea to have images be about twice the size of the sequence if a person want to pan and scale the image.  Therefore, pictures that are 4,300 pixels along the longest edge are not that large considering I am working in a comp that is 1920 pixels wide.  I don't have any problems with slow downs or exporting in "Software Mode".  Is there a different image size limitation for hardware acceleration?  The maximum texture size for my card is 8,192 pixels...my images are well below that.

                 

                It makes sense to support large images because if someone was working on a 4K project and wanted to pan images, they would need to be closer to the maximum image size....

                 

                Has anyone with a supported card or non supported card tried images larger than 4,000 pixels in hardware acceleration mode?

                • 5. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                  Ann Bens CommunityMVP

                  I did read the CS5 manual and it stated 16 megapixels, page 89.

                  • 6. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                    {KMS} Community Member

                    I see that...there is an error somewhere in the manual because on the bottom of pg. 97 under the "Importing Still Images" section it says maximum is 10,000 x 8,000 pixels.  I am inclined to think that the 16 Megapixel limit is incorrect because the maximum sequence size that is supported by PPRO CS5 is higher than 16 Megapixels.  I read the maximum size for a sequence in CS5 somewhere on the web...can't find it now...it was really big.  I will try to find it.

                    • 7. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                      the_wine_snob CommunityMVP

                      Regardless of the maximum still size allowed, if one is concerned about the resulting quality, you will very likely want to Scale in PS, rather than in PrPro. There is nothing to be gained by Importing a lot more pixels, than needed, as they will just be thrown away. This is one time, where bigger is not better.

                       

                      I normally Scale to my Project Frame Size, and when I do need to Pan on a Zoomed out image, will calculate what I will require. Besides providing the best Scaling, I also keep the processing overhead to a minimum.

                       

                      Good luck,

                       

                      Hunt

                      • 8. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                        {KMS} Community Member

                        Found it...it was on Karle Soule's website.  Here is what he says about CS5 and maximum resolutions.

                         

                        " In the Adobe Mercury Engine, the maximum timeline resolution is 10240 pixels by 8192 pixels, more than enough for any mastering resolution we'll see in the near future. The maximum resolution for clips dropped in any timeline will be limited to 256 megapixels in any direction. So, for example, footage from a 32000 by 8000 pixel sensor could be imported and dropped onto a timeline."

                         

                        From the bottom of this page: http://blogs.adobe.com/VideoRoad/mercury/

                         

                        I am sure that Photoshop does a better job scaling images, but for projects with a lot of images, it just does not seem very practical to crop/scale each image base on how much panning will be done.  My project is not slowing down due to larger images and playback on the timeline is great, I was just wondering why MPE using hardware bogs down.

                         

                        My today's standards, an image of 4,300 pixels along the long edge is not that big....

                         

                        I have found that the problem is related to the cross dissolve.  If I remove the cross dissolve the sequence will export with all the GPU goodness speed.  Make me wonder if both images have to be loaded by the GPU to calculate the dissolve.  If that is the case, then two images over 4096 would put my card over the 8192 maximum image texture...however, the GTX 285 has the same maximum image texture, so I wonder if the problem still occurs on my card/system or all GPU rendering?

                        • 9. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                          the_wine_snob CommunityMVP

                          By using Actions, PS is not tough to deal with. In my case, I view each image as unique, so treat each one as such.

                           

                          It's your call on what you wish to do, but if you have a slowdown, and care about the quality of your still images - I'd find it easy to make that call.

                           

                          My today's standards, an image of 4,300 pixels along the long edge is not that big....

                          I do not recall intimating that it was. However, 1920 x 1080 is much, much smaller, so you are just throwing away unused pixels.

                           

                          Good luck,

                           

                          Hunt

                          • 10. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                            {KMS} Community Member

                            I have found that it is not the size of the stills on their own that cause the problem.  It is an interaction between the cross dissolve transition and the built in motion filter.  If I do a Ken Burns effect with large images and don't apply a cross dissolve there is not a problem.  If I just put the images on the timeline without any scaling or keyframing and just apply a cross dissolve there is not a problem.  Something is is occurring when both a the standard motion filter and cross dissolved are being used together while using the GPU.

                             

                            Is anyone willing try a couple of large images with the GPU to see if it is a global or local problem?  Thanks.

                            • 11. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                              Colin Brougham Community Member

                              I've discovered something similar, actually. I'm using a GTX-480, as well, so it's hard to say whether it's the result of an unsupported card or a problem with hardware MPE.

                               

                              I had a project that was continuously crashing Premiere CS5 (it was brought forward from CS4) whenever it encountered a couple of photos that I had animated with Scale and Position and to which I'd applied dissolves, so long as GPU acceleration was enabled. I thought it was a problem with the dissolves, but some experimentation revealed that it might actually be the result of the images DPI instead of the dimensions or the dissolves. I had decreased the size of the images (they were photos from a DSLR, something like 3600x2400--can't remember exact dimensions at the moment) as I thought that might be the cause, but Premiere still crashed. I tried removing the dissolves--crash. I tried removing the original animation and rebuilding it--crash, the moment I scaled down from 100%.

                               

                              Funnily enough, I had a larger image farther down the sequence that had no problems. I started doing some exploration and found that the photos that were causing the crash were 180DPI (pretty standard for digital stills, I think) while the one that was OK was 240DPI. Once I changed the "crashy" photos to 72DPI, I was able to animate the photos and have dissolves between them without a problem.

                               

                              Since you're working with DSLR photos, check the DPI of the images and see if they're 180DPI. If so, as a test, try changing one to anything else, and see what happens.

                              • 12. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                the_wine_snob CommunityMVP

                                Colin has confirmed similar in his copy of CS5.

                                 

                                Now, what happens if you use the large stills in an AE Comp, and do the same operations? That is a much better program for large still image animations.

                                 

                                Good luck,

                                 

                                Hunt

                                • 13. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                  Colin Brougham Community Member

                                  Bill,

                                   

                                  This is an issue with hardware-based MPE/GPU acceleration when it comes to scaling these images--in software MPE mode, there is no problem (for me, anyway). So while AE is undoubtedly the better/best choice for animating stills of just about any kind, that's really not the question here. The fact is that Premiere should not stumble or crash with these images in software or hardware-accelerated mode; of course, it's difficult to tell if the issue is due to the OP and me using unsupported GPUs, or if there is an issue with hardware MPE in general.

                                   

                                  I'd be happy to post up one of the photos that was causing the problem for me, if someone with a supported GPU was willing to test.

                                  • 14. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                    the_wine_snob CommunityMVP

                                    Colin,

                                     

                                    I agree, and you had already confirmed an issue with large still images, with animation and Transitions in CS5 to address the issues.

                                     

                                    I was curious is AE CS5 suffered from the same issues, as it is the better program for such. If it stumbles too, then all bets are off.

                                     

                                    Thanks for checking and confirming for the OP.

                                     

                                    Hunt

                                    • 15. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                      Colin Brougham Community Member

                                      I was curious is AE CS5 suffered from the same issues, as it is the better program for such. If it stumbles too, then all bets are off.

                                      It doesn't; nor does Premiere when turning off GPU acceleration. As the OP noted, he also found there was a "solution" of sorts when turning off GPU acceleration on his system. To me, that's a pretty clear indicator of where the problem lies, and that's with the GPU. We're both tempting fate with unsupported GPUs, so it's likely our problem, and our problem alone, but it's hard to tell without GTX-285 or similar for comparison's sake.

                                      • 16. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                        the_wine_snob CommunityMVP

                                        Colin,

                                         

                                        Thank you for the clarification.

                                         

                                        Appreciated,

                                         

                                        Hunt

                                        • 17. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                          {KMS} Community Member

                                          Colin,

                                           

                                          Thank you for taking the time to post.  I have tried AE as well and the problem does not exist.  I don't normally use such large images, but it should not crash the program.  I have tried looking at the DPI of the images, but there were already at 72.  Just for fun, I tried some images (jpeg) straight off my T2i @ 5184 x 3456 and as soon as they are placed on the timeline I get a red line instead of a yellow one and the images will export with the cross dissolve and keyframed.  I am assuming that since it is a red line the GPU is not being used?  Might explain why it will export.  However, previewing the timeline with images that large is really choppy with the GPU acceleration turned on.  Software mode is really smooth and responsive at half or quarter resolution.

                                           

                                          Like you said, it is tough to know if the problem is isolated or wide spread without anyone with a supported card to try it out....

                                          • 18. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                            the_wine_snob CommunityMVP

                                            In Video, the DPI/PPI will be ignored, so you're good to go with the 72.

                                             

                                            Remember that when you Import a still image into PrPro and use it on the Timeline, you have "created" and AV file, based on the FPS and Duration for the still Clips. Rendering for smoothest playback is the common course of action here. The red line will turn green.

                                             

                                            Good luck and thanks for reporting on AE,

                                             

                                            Hunt

                                            • 19. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                              digitlman Community Member

                                              This really sounds like a video card framebuffer memory issue. Premiere could have been programmed with any theoretical 50,000x50,000 max image size, but if your using the graphics card to process the video you are eventually going to hit a block where you dont have enough ram on your card to handle the two 32bit depth high rez images, as well as your framebuffers and whatever else is being held in there at the time. At some point the card runs out of memory and then it either automatically reverts to software mode or starts handing off the data to the cpu to move into its ram during processing. So it makes perfect sense that it would slow down at some point. That would really be a programmers question as to how Adobe wrote the software.

                                               

                                              I know in CS4 with my Axio system i can put up to 800x600 images in an NTSC timeline and they work perfectly in realtime. but if i add 1 more pixel then the line would turn red and effects would slow down.

                                               

                                              I remember AFX had a 4Kx4K resolution limit in the past also, Anyone know what it is now in CS5? As premiere is written on the after effects engine i would assume it to be the same.

                                              • 20. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                                Todd_Kopriva Adobe Employee

                                                I'll get a definitive answer about this from the engineers when we're back from vacation (on Monday), so you might want to hold the speculation until then.

                                                 

                                                What I know for certain is that there are different limits to the frame dimensions for the CUDA acceleration compared to non-CUDA-accelerated frames.

                                                 

                                                BTW, since After Effects was mentioned: The limit in After Effects is 30,000x30,000---both for composition frame size and footage item frame size. However, for OpenGL processing, the limit is much lower, and downsampling occurs. Knowing this is what makes me even more certain that there are different frame size limits in Premiere Pro depending on whether the GPU processing is engaged.

                                                • 21. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                                  Jerry.K Community Member

                                                  It will be really good to get some answers on this. It has been a puzzle to me for quite a while. Even if performance is not affected in most cases, knowing the effects of large image size can give those of us who use stills a lot a better handle on appropriate standards.

                                                  • 22. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                                    the_wine_snob CommunityMVP

                                                    Jerry.K,

                                                     

                                                    Whatever the max image size, one still needs to consider the quality of any Scaling, and should measure the quality of doing that Scaling in PS vs letting PrPro do it. So far, my eyes give a very strong nod to PS, but maybe things have changed, regarding the Scaling algorithms in PrPro. At least with PS, one has many more options, from which to choose.

                                                     

                                                    In the past, at least, this has been a situation where bigger was NOT better. Still, only the editor's eyes (or those of their clients) can be the final judge. For me, if I can tell the difference, then I have to assume that my clients can, as well.

                                                     

                                                    So, it's really a two-part question: the max still image size, and the quality of the Scaling algorithms in PrPro.

                                                     

                                                    Awaiting the definitive answers,

                                                     

                                                    Hunt

                                                    • 23. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                                      Harm Millaard CommunityMVP

                                                      Bill, FYI Scaling with software MPE high quality is a Gaussian low pass sampled with a bilinear  filter. Software MPE max quality is a variable radius bicubic (based on  Photoshop code, but threaded and with some SSE). The practical benefit  of the max quality scale is it does a much better job at preserving fine  details. Hardware MPE always uses max quality.

                                                      • 24. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                                        the_wine_snob CommunityMVP

                                                        Harm,

                                                         

                                                        That is very useful to know. Obviously, things have now improved, regarding Scaling in PrPro.

                                                         

                                                        Thanks for taking the time to explain how it's now done in CS5. That the PS algorithms are now being used, is a step in the right direction.

                                                         

                                                        Now, I would wonder a bit, about the time that this might add to the processes. Doing that Scaling in PS is almost instantaneous with Actions, so a nod might still go to that method. Maybe the first thing that I test, when I get up and running in CS5? I might have to do an addendum to my "Large Still Images... " article to account for CS5. I'll be sure to attribute those changes to you! [Maybe Adobe will see fit to add a little "something extra" to your pay envelope... ]

                                                         

                                                        Appreciated,

                                                         

                                                        Hunt

                                                        • 25. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                                          Todd_Kopriva Adobe Employee

                                                          Sorry it took so long, but here are some answers about maximum image sizes, including what the CUDA acceleration part of the Mercury playback engine can handle:

                                                          http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2010/07/maximum_dimensions_in_premiere.html

                                                          • 26. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                                            {KMS} Community Member

                                                            Todd,

                                                             

                                                            Thank you for the information.  I appreciate the time and effort.

                                                            • 27. Re: Large Images + MPE Hardware = Decreased Performance?
                                                              Jrm125

                                                              I too have this problem. I've  found larger images (generally 2000 x 2000 and higher) jpgs will cause  Premiere to completely stop and not respond for several minutes. It  often takes a restart just to get the computer back to full speed.

                                                               

                                                              Not  exactly running a slouch either...16 gb RAM, Windows 7, Quadro FX with  Mercury Support, Core i7-980x. The thing eats HD video for breakfast but  can't handle single images.

                                                               

                                                              Fix this Adobe, it's killing my workflow to have to manually resize images in Photoshop just to drop them onto a timeline.