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      • 40. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
        klsteven-vBdprK Community Member

        Mikrotom,

         

        there still may be one component that could cause the banding you see: The monitor color profile itself. Maybe you could use sRGB as monitor profile just for test purpose and try again. Maybe you also should disable any LUT loaders and also reset the monitor to its default settings just for testing.

        • 41. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
          Chris Cox Adobe Employee

          Once again SW is far behind HW...

          Not really. The HW (and drivers) aren't quite ready for prime time.  We're still working on it.

          • 42. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
            Aleve Sicofante

            Has there been any progress about this? I'm about to configure a system for a customer and I'll be using a NEC PA241W monitor, which supports both extended gamut and 10-bpc input.

             

            Windows 7 is ready.

             

            NVidia Quadros are ready.

             

            Is Photoshop CS5 definitely ready?

             

            Any official documentation on the subject yet?

             

            Thanks

            • 43. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
              Chris Cox Adobe Employee

              AMD/ATI has some driver tricks that enable 10 bit in some cases.

               

              But our full support is still waiting on driver testing.

              • 44. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                Aleve Sicofante Community Member

                Thanks Chris, but from your reply I don't quite get if you mean you're testing ATI drivers or drivers in general. Nvidia officially supports 10 bpc output on their Quadro drivers (NOT on the GeForce series), that's why I have selected them for my Photoshop customers' builds.

                 

                So may I ask specifically if you currently provide support for the Nvidia Quadro series, since their drivers do officially support 10 bpc?

                • 45. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                  Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                  We are testing drivers in general.

                  We can't say which cards/drivers we'll support at this time.

                  • 46. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                    klsteven-vBdprK Community Member

                    Chris,

                     

                    could you try to convince nvidia that they should support 10bit output also on the Geforce cards and not only on their Quadros? IMO there`s no need for a Quadro for Photoshop and so I guess 99,99% of PS users don`t have a Quadro. I`m pretty sure that the Geforce hardware can do 10bit and only the drivers are limited. Since nvidia and Adobe seem to cooperate very well, maybe they listen to you.

                    • 47. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                      Aleve Sicofante Community Member

                      I don't know how much pressure Chris or Adobe can put on Nvidia, but I definitely second that. My customers cringe at the price when I tell them they need a Quadro for a 10 bpc workflow.

                       

                      EDIT: Oh, and I'm positive about it being just a drivers issue. I'm in conversations with some manufacturers who offer GeForce cards with DisplayPort and they say it's just the drivers that don't allow them to put 10 bpc on the output.

                      • 48. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                        Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

                        I might be wrong, but why not just dither 16-bit data for 8-bit display, as Lightroom 3 does, for example? Even the finest gradients seem to look really smooth for all practical purposes. At least there's no need to depend on third parties (displays, graphics cards, drivers, OSes).

                         

                        Or am I missing something obvious (not so obvious)? Is anyone willing to educate me?

                        • 49. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                          Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                          For the same reason you don't sprinkle salt on broken glass and call it a window.

                           

                          Photoshop already dithers when going to the display, because that's the only real option available.

                          But the 10 bit display path is much higher quality.

                          • 50. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                            Hudechrome Community Member

                            Salt on broken glass. Yum!

                             

                            Hot or cold, Chris?

                            • 51. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                              Aleve Sicofante Community Member

                              I've just got an e-mail from Zotac's support in Europe that confirms I can use their GTX 460 model ZT-40402-10P and get 10 bpc from its DisplayPort output. They literally say:


                              nVidia has confirm that current drivers will support 10 bit output.

                               

                              Best regards,

                              Eurotech team

                               

                              (This is the latest e-mail from a long conversation where I have exposed the issues with 10 bpc and GeForce cards, DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort, etc. It's not the typical first response from marketing. It's taken a few days for them to contact Nvidia and confirm the fact. They will only support 10 bpc from the DisplayPort output.)

                               

                              This means 10 bpc output is NOT crippled in the drivers and, contrary to the general belief, it would be present in GeForce cards with a DisplayPort (these are rare, indeed, but do exist). It would be nice if Adobe could confirm this as well with Nvidia.

                              • 52. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                Zeno Bokor Community Member

                                Yes, but this is all very early in it's development yet. There are still questions like, what resolutions are supported? how is it handled with multi-monitors? what operating systems implement this? how many bugs are there related to 10bit support in the drivers/OS/PS?

                                • 53. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                  klsteven-vBdprK Community Member

                                  Aleve, this is very interesting! I have a GTX 470 with display port. But one question: Take a look at page 28 on this PDF:

                                  http://de.download.nvidia.com/Windows/257.21/257.21_NVIDIA_Control_Panel_Quick_Start_Guide .pdf

                                  There`s an option "deep color for 3D application".

                                  This option should enable 10bit output. Can you find this option in your driver? I cannot

                                  I couldn`t even find it on some driver screenshots that I saw on the web for a Quadro card.

                                  • 54. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                    Aleve Sicofante Community Member

                                    There are still questions like, what resolutions are supported?

                                    The same resolutions available on 8 bpc

                                     

                                    how is it handled with multi-monitors?

                                    Why would it be any different than 8 bpc

                                     

                                    what operating systems implement this?

                                    Windows 7 implements 8, 10 and 16 bpc

                                     

                                    how many bugs are there related to 10bit support in the drivers/OS/PS?

                                    This question is really nit-picking. Every piece of software, no matter what, has bugs.

                                     

                                    10 bpc is NOT in its early development at Nvidia. Quadros have supported this for long. The only question here is wether Nvidia wants their GeForce cards to provide 10 bpc support or not. And what Zotac support has been replied by Nvidia itself is that THERE IS  10 bpc in their drivers for GeForce.

                                    • 55. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                      Aleve Sicofante Community Member

                                      I don't own any Nvidia GeForce with DisplayPort. I'm just researching the subject in order to implement a 10 bpc workflow for the workstations I build and sell.

                                       

                                      As soon as I get my hands on one of these cards (soon), I'll be in close contact with Zotac support regarding how to enable 10 bpc in Windows 7.

                                      • 56. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                        Zeno Bokor Community Member

                                        how many bugs are there related to 10bit support in the drivers/OS/PS?

                                        This question is really nit-picking. Every piece of software, no matter what, has bugs.

                                        That wasn't my point, my point is that you have to take the bugs inherent in the drivers+OS+PS to figure out exactly how mature the implementation is. Saying that the drivers support 10bits means about as much as saying that it supports the OpenGL Drawing features from Photoshop and look how many video card related threads are around here. All Photoshop needs for OpenGL Drawing are OpenGL 2.0 and Shader Model 3.0 both of which have been available since the Geforce 6xxx/Radeon X1xxx series but it's still one of the most comon problems around here.

                                        • 57. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                          Aleve Sicofante Community Member

                                          I see. I don't think it's quite comparable (the 10 bpc issue should be easier to address than OpenGL features) but you have a point.

                                          • 58. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                            bibo12

                                            hi there!......

                                            so, this is my expirience........

                                            Win 7 64bit, PScs5, Dell 2711, Ati FirePro 8750, conected thro display port,

                                            latest firepro 8.762 beta5 driver,

                                            yes, all works just fine, U put 10 bit test ramp image in PS and there

                                            is no banding, but in full frame.. windowed.. banding is back, also (of course)

                                            when drag window to another monitor wich has not 10 bit support..........

                                            everithyng looks just nice and work well..... no crashing....

                                            cheers..

                                            bibo.......

                                            • 59. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                              ITAVittorio

                                              Hi, I would like to know if there are any news abuot 10bit support with nVidia cards. I would like to know if there is the 10-bit option in the driver now and if I can use a GTX285 to work with 10-bit colour depth for each channell. I will probabily buy a SpectraView 271 NEC 10-bit monitor, I already have Photoshop 64 CS5 and Windows 7 64.                                            

                                              • 60. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                                                NVidia has the driver code, and is releasing it on their schedule.

                                                It does require display port, and won't work over DVI.

                                                 

                                                Check with NVidia for when particular cards may get the driver updates.

                                                • 61. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                  ITAVittorio Community Member

                                                  Thanks for the asnwer. So we can say that at the moment the only solution to have Photoshop running in 10bit for each channell are ATI video cards? I sent several emails to nVidia but I had no aswer. I know for sure that on cards like the FirePRO V4800 you can easly run Photoshop with 10bit color depth.

                                                  So what we need to have 10bit now is:
                                                  1) Windows 7

                                                  2) Photoshop CS5

                                                  3) ATI video card with Display Port

                                                  4) Monitor with 10bit panel

                                                  Is this right?

                                                  • 62. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                    emaini Community Member

                                                    You would be correct if Photoshop CS5 was ready to support 10bit

                                                     

                                                    As far as I know, there is still no 10bit support unless I missed an update and software patch.

                                                     

                                                    Right now there are a lot of available piece but I doubt they all play together very well but close enough that probably by next year we will see some more movement in this area.

                                                    • 63. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                      Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                                                      In the future, you might want to read the previous discussion before commenting.

                                                       

                                                      Photoshop CS5 already supports 10 bit/channel displays, and has been waiting for the video card vendors to fully enable the functionality.

                                                       

                                                      ATI has done so with several of their cards, and this is working for many customers.

                                                      NVidia has also done so, but has not announced as many cards yet, and is still rolling out driver updates.

                                                       

                                                      Yes, it does require a display port and a 10 bit/channel capable display.

                                                      • 64. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                        emaini Community Member

                                                        Apologies, I have been following but it was unclear what/when and was waiting for a more clear statement from Adobe

                                                         

                                                        I am hoping there is KB with a support list of known good working configs at some point

                                                        • 65. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                          ITAVittorio Community Member

                                                          Thanks again.

                                                          What I know for sure is that with cards like the FirePRO V4800 (ATI based, with Display Port) and a monitor like the NEC PA271W the 10bit mode is running fine in Photoshop CS5. Of course you have to go to the driver control panel and set the 10bit mode, and you have to reboot. The 10bit mode gives problems with some non-compatibile applications, but in Photoshop it just runs fine. There is a good advantage, easy to see, using the test images: where you have banding in 10bit mode you will have no problems with the same image and 10bit mode. It is difficult to notice it in pitures, but if you have, for example, a blu sky with a gradient you can see some differences, it will be more smooth. I have done some test with the described configuration in the photo sutdio of a friend, we also tried to use an nVidia 285GTX card with no good resoult (it could not find the "10 bit" option in the drivers).

                                                          I hope that nVidia relase a driver with 10bit support (as you may know the driver is the same for many VGAs, there is no single driver, for example the last WHQL driver, the 260.89 relased on the 19th of October (yesterday), are good for: desktop GeForce series 6, 7, 8, 9, 100, 200, 300, 400 and desktop ION. In this driver there is nothing I could see for the 10bit support (I did not search for a long time, but there was nothing easy to find).

                                                          I will email again nVidia asking them to let me know if it is possibile to use 10bit color depth and let you know if a receive an asnwer.

                                                          I am going to buy a 10bit panel and I'd like to use my VGA, otherwise I'll go with the V4800.

                                                          • 66. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                            klsteven-YekPUg

                                                            Vittorio,

                                                            take a look at http://de.download.nvidia.com/Windows/260.89/260.89_NVIDIA_Control_Panel_Quick_Start_Guide .pdf

                                                            page 22: "Deep color for 3D applications". This feature should be there since several driver versions and not be limited to Quadros. But I could never find it on my GTX 470. I have tried to get an answer from nvidia about this parameter in their forum several times, but never got any answer! Do you have an email address where one can actually get in contact with nvidia and can get an answer?

                                                            • 67. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                              ITAVittorio Community Member

                                                              I am sorry I have no direct nVidia mail conctact working. What I do is I write to my dealer (official PNY partner) and I ask nVidia for me.

                                                              I could not find the "Deep color for 3D applications" in the driver settings. If I have any news about this I will write on this forum.

                                                              Of course for 10bit a Display Port is needed.

                                                              • 68. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                klsteven-YekPUg Community Member

                                                                My GTX 470 does have a Display Port. But the Deep Color option is  missing

                                                                • 69. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                  PJA Media Community Member

                                                                  I have nVidia FX580 and NEC PA271W (10bit) monitor connected via displayport.

                                                                  I have the latest nVidia drivers installed and can see the 'Deep Color for 3D Applications' option set to 'Allow' - its default setting.

                                                                  I have Windows 7 desktop configured with Aero themes switched off - So theme is set to 'Windows 7 Basic' (the driver option did not force Aero to switch off as I had previously read)

                                                                  and have been testing PS CS5 x64 under Win 7 Ultimate x64

                                                                  I have configured the OpenGL settings in PS CS5, under both 'Normal' and 'Advanced' mode, and even with PS in  full screen, I can not get 10bit color.

                                                                   

                                                                  There is an interesting ATI article which provides a test image, for which the image's gradient should not show any banding if 10bit color is enabled. I still see this banding with my configuration, so really a bit sorry I wasted all my cash on what is supposed to be an awesome setup.

                                                                   

                                                                  Any ideas anyone? Any help/advice would be appreciated.

                                                                   

                                                                  Here's that ATI(AMD) link: http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/tools/pages/tools.aspx

                                                                   

                                                                  Thanks, Paul

                                                                  • 70. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                    Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                                                                    Paul - you need to contact NVidia. Something is still missing in the driver.

                                                                    • 71. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                      PJA Media Community Member

                                                                      Chris. Thanks for the reply.

                                                                       

                                                                      Is this driver omiission just a problem I have with my driver, or is this global issue with the Quadro driver set (I have latest version: 259.81 for x64)?

                                                                       

                                                                      Some other notes which may help the issue:

                                                                       

                                                                      I could not get my monitor to come out of powersave mode when I start up with only the FX580 card installed, 10bit display connected via displayport. Connecting a second monitor to the card via DVI (or even to displayport using the DVI->displayport adaptor) forced this second monitor to diaplay POST and windows startup - once windows starts, the login screen flips over onto the 10bit displayport monitor and both displays show the extended desktop after login - but now I have 2 monitors connected - the 10bit displayport monitor, plus my old 8bit monitor connected using DVI, to the same adapter. In this config, 10bit color doesn't work if I load PS on my 10bit display in full-screen.

                                                                      The reason I am explaining this is because I'm wondering if for this to work, I should only have a single displayport connected 10bit monitor and not the second monitor using DVI?

                                                                       

                                                                      I also tried this with 2 graphics adapters installed, my old GeForce 7600GS with my old monitor connected via DVI (in the first slot to allow this to be used for POST/startup/login etc) and the new Quadro FX580 with my new NEC 10bit monitor connected via displayport (in 2nd slot) for extended desktop. Again no joy with displaying 10bit color in PS full-screen.

                                                                       

                                                                      Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

                                                                       

                                                                      Thanks again, Paul

                                                                       

                                                                      p.s. I can't figure how to speak to nVidia directly - they direct you to the card manufacturer - in my case I think I have a re-badged PNY card (rebranded as Hewlett Packard).

                                                                      • 72. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                        Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                                                                        I'm not sure where the problem is. NVidia told us that it would be working by now.

                                                                        We have tested drivers where it was working.

                                                                        • 73. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                          PJA Media wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          I have Windows 7 desktop configured with Aero themes switched off - So theme is set to 'Windows 7 Basic' (the driver option did not force Aero to switch off as I had previously read)


                                                                          Just curious...  What's the connection between switching Aero off and the use of 10 bit per channel mode?  Is it a requirement?  Surely there's enough memory for all that in the Video card.

                                                                           

                                                                          I apologize for not reading the entire thread if this was discussed earlier.

                                                                           

                                                                          -Noel

                                                                          • 74. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                            emaini Community Member

                                                                            Chris,

                                                                             

                                                                            Are there know good combo's of OS/GPU/Monitor/Drivers that you are able to publish or suggest or recommend as a starting point?

                                                                             

                                                                            I have been specifically monitoring this thread and delayed purchases in hopes of getting a good known set even if I had to fiddle a little to get it working.

                                                                             

                                                                            Is there a KB or info you can share, or just what some have tried from previous posts?

                                                                             

                                                                            Enzo

                                                                            • 75. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                              Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                                                                              We're working on a list of known good video cards and such, but the list keeps changing.

                                                                              Also, what we've been TOLD works hasn't quite matched customer experience, so we're having to do a lot more testing.

                                                                              And some of what we've tested, apparently hasn't made it to end users yet.

                                                                              • 76. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                                emaini Community Member

                                                                                I understand.  Thank you

                                                                                • 77. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                                  Chris_BC_1 Community Member

                                                                                  Chris,

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I was hoping for some new updates.  Any info on 10 bpp support on cards other than the Quadro or FirePro workstations cards would be greatly appreciated.  Even if it's just links to other sites that you feel might have good info.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I just upgraded from CS3 to CS5, and I finally sprung for a Dell 30" monitor, in this case the 10 bpp capable U3011.  I have an Nvidia 8600 GT based card from XFX right now so I'm looking for an upgrade.  The FirePro V4800 is available for about $160 and indicates full 10 bit support all the way through.  ATI also provides step by step instructions showing how to make it work in their driver and then in CS5.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  My concern is that the V4800 workstation card may not be the highest performance option all the way around for me to use.  (I don't do gaming right now but would like to keep that possibility open.)  Any info on performance would also be appreciated.  Even if in informal tests you've done at Adobe.  ATI lists this card as for entry level on Photoshop even though it has 1GB of GDDR5, and as part of their description they mention smaller files and lower resolutions.  (The "mid level" FirePro V5800 has the same RAM {and standards support, e.g. Open GL 3.2} but 800 stream processors instead of 400, and it's over twice the cost at around $400 and that's a good bit more than what I want to pay.) I'm going to be editing RAW files from an EOS 7D (as well as older ones from an EOS 40D) and my thought is that they would qualify as large.  I can edit them now with the 8600 GT card but I did notice a big slowdown in CS5's response when I went from 1920x1200 to the 2560x1600 of the Dell U3011.  My goal is to get the performance above that I had before and at the same time get the 10 bpp display capability.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Feel free to put whatever disclaimers you want on any info you can provide, but please let me know what you think of the V4800, and also what other options in the non-workstation card you have "confirmed" to work.  Also note that preliminary info on stuff coming is fine as well. Specifics would be great.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I'm already in contact with XFX and so far have received contradictory info.  The first tech said only a workstation card would do 10 bpp, but then a 2nd tech came back and said their Radeon cards with DisplayPort would do it as well.  I replied back to request a confirmation (asking for some specs and/or a technical document) but have yet to get a response.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Thanks in advance for your help, and thanks to Adobe for pushing the envelope to bring us better performance.

                                                                                  • 78. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                                    Hudechrome Community Member

                                                                                    Chris, one thing I have learned in all this searching is to find a supplier that will give you return privileges on such purchases, so that you can try out different models. If locally there is no such option, I have found Amazon to be a great "no questions asked" so long as the packaging is intact and the device operable. I went through a fistfull of DDR3 to get what I wanted. Turnaround time isn't as handy as a walk-in, but it works well.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    No matter what we tell you, it's still a crapshoot from the perspective that each PC will have it's own peculiarities so in the final analysis you have to do trials anyway. Just be sure you have a good test routine setup before commencing.

                                                                                    • 79. Re: Photoshop 10bit support
                                                                                      emaini Community Member

                                                                                      Chris,

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Was wondering if there is any more information about 10bit support in terms of know good configs.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I stumbled upon this from EIZO which is stating that these configs work.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Not sure if this is valid, but maybe users with EIZO and AMD GPUs may find this usefull or at least for those with AMD GPUs

                                                                                       

                                                                                      http://www.eizo.com/global/support/compatibility/monitors/20.pdf

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Posting it because I thought it may help some one.

                                                                                       

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Unfortunately I have an NVIDIA and NEC monitor and have not found a good/stable/working combo.  I may not have the latest drivers or something but I keep trying.