13 Replies Latest reply: Aug 21, 2010 10:35 AM by the_wine_snob RSS

    Invisible flash frames in PE4

    jbcooke Community Member

      In PE4, a flash frame -- an unwanted frame from an adjoining clip that's unintentionally left at the beginning or end of a clip -- may not be visible until the edited movie is burned to DVD and shown on a large screen. Even knowing where the flash frame is, you cannot see it in PE4 by clicking frame-by-frame across the cut in the Sceneline, or by fully expanding the Timeline. It's possible to get rid of the flash frame in PE4 by trimming a single frame first from one side of the cut, then from the other, and viewing the result, but again, it may necessary to burn the movie to DVD and watch it on a large screen to be sure it's gone. The simpler, and much faster, remedy is to trim a frame from each side of the cut -- but this means cutting two frames instead of one.

       

      Is there a way to make these flash frames visible in PE4 so only the offending frame can be cut?

       

      jbcooke

        • 1. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
          the_wine_snob Community Member

          You do not have adequate Handles, and the Frames from the following Clip are being used. These graphics will explain more:

          Handles_01.jpg

          Handles_02.jpg

           

          Just adjust your Out Point (or In Point if coming from the Head of a Clip) by the number of Frames, that you are seeing.

           

          Good luck,

           

          Hunt

          • 2. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
            jbcooke Community Member

            I have run into the problem you describe -- the program using frames from the preceding or next clip -- in dissolve (and other) transitions, but what I'm talking about in the present situation is flash frames remaining adjacent to a straight cut -- a butt cut -- not during a transition. In this situation, I don't think the issue of handles comes up. (I've looked up Handles in PE4 Help, which is totally unhelpful. It doesn't address the issue of adjusting handles at all.)

             

            > Just adjust your Out Point (or In Point if coming from the Head of a  Clip) by the number of Frames, that you are seeing.

             

            If this is relevant, I'd need instructions on how to do this, or a reference to a Help topic.

             

            jbcooke

            • 3. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
              Steve Grisetti MVP

              I'm not sure we're still visualizing what you're describing, jb.

               

              Can you post a screen capture of your timeline (zoomed in as close as possible) with an example?

               

              It's quite possible that what's you're seeing is a stray frame or two of video between two clips. If it's there, you should see it if you zoom in really close.

               

              These stray frames can happen when you add a clip too closely to another clip. The program thinks you're trying to insert a video into the clip and it snips a few frames off the end and sticks them after the new clip.

               

              As I've said, if this is the case, you should be able to see this clip in between two clips if you into the timeline.

               

              The only other thing I can think of is that you're seeing a stray frame that snuck in while you were capturing your video. But then you'd be able to see this frame if you double-clicked on the clip and played it in the Clip Monitor that pops open.

               

              How are you capturing this video and dividing it into scenes?

              • 4. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
                jbcooke Community Member

                Steve G wrote:

                > Can you  post a screen capture of your timeline (zoomed in as close as possible)  with an example?

                 

                I created a screen-shot of a cut between two clips where I know an unwanted frame is present -- but not visible in the fully-expanded Timeline -- but Copy-Paste doesn't insert it here. (If you tell me how to add it to the forum, I'll post it later today)...

                 

                Steve G also wrote:

                > I'm not sure we're still visualizing what you're describing, jb.

                 

                I'll try again. What I'm describing is simplicity itself: a straight cut from one clip to another, no transition, in which there is an unwanted frame (not part of either cut, but inadvertently included, from an adjoining clip, when one of the clips was cut to the desired length and moved to this point in the film) that is not visible even when the Timeline is fully expanded.

                 

                How do I know it's there? Because I can see it when I run the movie from DVD on my 27" TV set. In PE4 it's not always possible to be sure a flash-frame is present when I run the movie in the program.

                 

                As a further check, I discovered this helpful procedure. When playing the DVD on my Sony DVD/VCR deck, if I hit Pause (not Stop) just after the cut in question, then hit << (fast rewind), the deck _slow_ rewinds, frame-by-frame, revealing the unwanted frame.

                 

                It may help to add that I'm working with video transferred from 8mm film. When first brought into PE4 (captured from a MiniDV dub of the DigiBeta video original), the footage is a single video clip. To make clips of the individual scenes, I go through the footage making cuts between clips. I do this very carefully, clicking forward and back frame-by-frame each time to make sure I'm cutting between the different scenes. Even so, sometimes a frame from the preceding (or following) scene ends up as part of the following (or preceding) clip, but you can't see the error in the Timeline, even when it's fully expanded.

                 

                As I said in my original post, I can get rid of these unwanted flash frames by trimming one frame from either side of the cut, but I'd rather not have to trim 2 frames when I only need to delete one (the flash frame).

                 

                jbcooke

                • 5. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
                  Steve Grisetti MVP

                  When you double-click on these clips and look at them in the Clip Monitor, are you seeing these extra frames?

                   

                  If so, it's related to your original telecine or maybe your capture of the video. (This is not a typical experience by any means, so it's likely related to the fact that you're working on an unusual project that has some potential for unusual behavior.)

                   

                  If not, then they're somewhere on the timeline. If you can't see them when you zoom in, they may have snuck in on an upper track. (Not likely though, if you can trim them away.)

                   

                  You haven't said what these are frames of and if they are from an adjacent clip on your videotape or something. But, if they are not and are pictures of people who don't know, your computer could be haunted.

                  • 6. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
                    jbcooke Community Member

                    > When you double-click on these clips and look at them in the Clip  Monitor, are you seeing these extra frames?

                     

                    No, I've looked at the clips in the Clip Monitor and advanced frame-by-frame across the cut where the flash-frame is present, but can't see it there either.

                     

                    > If not, then they're somewhere on the timeline.

                     

                    Also checked, but they're not shifted to another video track. All video is in Video 1. Still, you might be right that the problem is "related to your original telecine or maybe your capture of the video." I haven't run into this problem when editing a project whose source material is original video.On the other hand, the problem of phantom flash-frames doesn't exist in the transferred video as I first capture it in PE4. It arises when I cut and paste, moving clips around in the editing process.

                     

                    > You haven't said what these are frames of and if they are from an  adjacent clip on your videotape or something.

                     

                    They definitely are from an adjacent clip, attached to the end of the next clip even though I'm careful when making cuts.

                     

                    Rather than drag this out, let's say there appears to be no way to see these single unwanted frames in PE4 and I'll go ahead and get rid of them by trimming a frame from each side of the affected cuts. In my present project, there appear to be only 6 instances of these flash frames in a 40-minute film, so the trims will reduce the running time by less than 1/2 second. I can live with that.

                     

                    Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions.

                     

                    jbcooke

                    • 7. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
                      the_wine_snob Community Member
                      They definitely are from an adjacent clip, attached to the end of the next clip even though I'm careful when making cuts.

                       

                      If they are coming from adjacent Clips, they are still most likely due to not having adequate Handles.

                       

                      As a test, remove all Transitions, so that you only have Butt-cuts. Export/Share that revised Timeline, and look for those "flash frames."

                       

                      Good luck,

                       

                      Hunt

                      • 8. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
                        jbcooke Community Member

                        Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to Hunt's last suggestions. He wrote:

                        > If they [unwanted flash frames] are coming from adjacent Clips, they are still most likely due  to not having adequate Handles.

                         

                        I've done some research on handles. It seems the term is used in two senses.

                        1. In the context of video editing, it's used to mean "extra video" at the ends of a clip that the program can use to create a transition. In my flash-frame problem, where these unwanted frames show up on one side or the other of a butt cut,  this type of handle doesn't seem relevant. (And I found out in PE4 Help that when there is no extra video to create a transition, the program duplicates the last frame on one side of a transition and the first frame on the other side to create the transition. Handy.)

                         

                        2. In the context of Windows, handles refers, as I understand it generally, to system resources -- RAM and scratch-disk space -- that enable a program like PE to work properly. I have lots of RAM and even more scratch-disk space (600+ GB), so I'm virtually certain that system resources are not the cause of my problem.

                         

                        > As a test, remove all Transitions, so that  you only have Butt-cuts. Export/Share that revised Timeline, and look  for those "flash frames."

                         

                        In this case, the solution would be worse than the problem because of the amount of time it would take me to conduct this test. I'm going ahead with my less time-consuming solution of cutting a frame on either side of the cuts where flash frames occur and making tiny adjustments in the audio track as needed.

                         

                        Thanks to Hunt and Steve G for helpful suggestions.

                         

                        Onward and upward with the arts,

                         

                        jbcooke

                        • 9. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
                          the_wine_snob Community Member

                          You are correct, regarding "handles." In this case, it is the video-editing definition, that we are using - Handles.

                           

                          You do not need to actually Cut (Razor/Scissors Tool), but can just click-drag on the Head, or Tail of the Clips involved, to change the In and/or Out Points for those Clips.

                           

                          You are also correct, that if there are no Frames available, i.e. the Clip physically ends, then PrE will create still Frames from the last Frame, to provide the Handles.

                           

                          If there ARE additional Frames, regardless of whether they are from that "shot," or from another "shot," PrE will just use those. It makes the assumption that with the setting of the In & Out Points, adequate Handles have been provided, and does not realize that those necessary Frames are coming from what the users considers a totally different "shot."

                           

                          Good luck,

                           

                          Hunt

                          • 10. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
                            jbcooke Community Member

                            > You are correct, regarding "handles." In this case, it is the  video-editing definition, that we are using - Handles.

                            > You do not  need to actually Cut (Razor/Scissors Tool), but can just click-drag on  the Head, or Tail of the Clips involved, to change the In and/or Out  Points for those Clips.

                             

                            Right. I do that almost all the time now. The problem with video transferred from film is that it's captured by PrE as a single "clip." To separate the movie into scenes, I go through it and use the Scissors Tool to cut it into clips that are individual shots/scenes. From that point on, I click-drag the In/Out points to remove visible splicing tape (from the original film) and to trim a clip/scene to desired length.

                             

                            > You are also correct, that if there are no Frames  available, i.e. the Clip physically ends, then PrE will create still  Frames from the last Frame, to provide the Handles.

                             

                            I suspect that PrE only regards the Clip as "physically" ending when it's a Clip in original video, so marked by the camcorder. Read on for why...

                             

                            > If there ARE  additional Frames, regardless of whether they are from that "shot," or  from another "shot," PrE will just use those. It makes the assumption  that with the setting of the In & Out Points, adequate Handles have  been provided, and does not realize that those necessary Frames are  coming from what the users considers a totally different "shot."

                             

                            Right. This has happened many times in editing my videos transferred from film. It has sometimes prevented me from using a dissolve or other Transition where I might like to use one, because PrE brings in frames from a totally different scene that are visible in the Transition. Again, the fact that my video came from film is probably the cause of the problem -- even after I've Cut (used the Scissors Tool) the video into separate clips, PrE regards it all as one big clip and feels free to use any adjoining frames as needed to create Transitions.It doesn't recognize the "physical" of a Clip, even when I've used the Scissors Tool to make a cut.

                             

                            The possible solution for these situations -- I haven't trid this yet -- is to tell PrE to create a "one-sided" Transition, using frames only from one of the adjoining clips, IF one of them has adequate Handles that do not involve pulling in frames from a different scene.

                             

                            A life of constant learning stimulates the brain!

                             

                            jbcooke

                            • 11. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
                              the_wine_snob Community Member

                              I still think that I have not clearly stated the concept of Handles. Maybe this ARTICLE will shed more light on what happens, when one Cuts a Clip, or sets its In & Out Points.

                               

                              Good luck,

                               

                              Hunt

                              • 12. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
                                jbcooke Community Member

                                > I still think that I have not clearly stated the concept of Handles.  Maybe this ARTICLE will  shed more light on what happens. . . .

                                 

                                Thanks, Hunt. As I've said, my "flash frame" problem is with straight -- butt -- cuts, not transitions, but although I use transitions only rarely I do use them sometimes, and there have been instances when I wanted to use a transition but didn't, or couldn't, because PrE pulled in frames from another scene, just as you illustrate in your article. Unwanted frames in a transition are very distracting, to say the least.To me, they make the transition unacceptable.

                                 

                                What your article suggests to me is that we need a way to tell PrE *not* to use frames from beyond In / Out points. I suspect the easiest way to achieve this would be to instruct the program not to use frames from a scene that was cut using the Razor / Scissors tool. As I've mentioned, when I capture video that was transferred from film, it comes into PrE as a single long clip. I use the Scissors tool to cut it into scenes/shots that are individual clips. I would much prefer that PrE never looked beyond each of these clips when I create a transition. For me, it's a weakness in PrE that it can remember what was originally attached to one of my clips before separated it from the original, uncut, video.

                                 

                                An alternative would be having a way to instruct PrE to duplicate the end frames of a cut when making transitions, rather than pulling in material from beyond the set In / Out points or from scenes that were formerly part of the clip in question.

                                 

                                jbcooke

                                • 13. Re: Invisible flash frames in PE4
                                  the_wine_snob Community Member

                                  Unfortunately, the ONLY way to do as you wish would be to make your Cuts (Razor or Scissors), and then to Export that edited Instance as a new file. You could then Import those resulting files into a new Project, and use them. There will be no Frames before the In Point, and none after the Out Point. Should you wish to ever add a Transition between two of these Clips, you will only have two choices: move the In & Out Points, as is necessary to create Handles, or let PrE create the still Frames to make up the Handles. Note: the latter method will lead to some oddities in the Transitions, and will probably not be what you want.

                                   

                                  Good luck,

                                   

                                  Hunt