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    [locked] Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum

    Noel Carboni Community Member

      I urge everyone to try to keep the following in mind when posting:

       

      1.  Folks visit here because it's known as a good place to get help.

      2.  Some people may ask for more than their fair share of help.

      3.  Not everyone knows the same things nor has the same needs.

      4.  Some people may be more expert than others at some things.

      5.  We can ALL stand to learn from each other.

       

      Frankly the level of personal confrontation is and has been FAR too high on this board, and it shouldn't be tolerated.  It often even pulls others who wouldn't otherwise be negative into the wrong mode.

       

      I ask that everyone please consider respecting everyone else's opinion and right to be here.  Please think twice before sending a barb someone's way.

       

      Let's talk about concepts, not people, shall we?  There's room for everyone here.

       

      Have a wonderful day, and most of all, have fun with Photoshop!

       

      -Noel

        • 1. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
          John Joslin Community Member

          But it's more fun if it isn't all sweetness and love. 


          I enjoy a good argument!  


          Yes even in here, just like it was in the good old days before jive.

          • 2. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
            John Joslin Community Member

            There is already a perfectly good set of rules for conduct on the forum!


            http://forums.adobe.com/thread/414764A

            • 3. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
              the_wine_snob Community Member

              Noel,

               

              This is a somewhat similar thread, that has just been started in the Video Lounge. Obviously, that is not PS-specific, and is geared more towards the PrPro fora. However, some of the same feelings appear.

               

              Hunt

              • 4. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                Userbak610 Community Member

                Aside from a few comments here and there. I generally see one particular user that has to turn every post into a confrontation. Personally I don't see why this one user has remained while many others were banned for posting less offensive/harsh than he/she has.

                • 6. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                  John T Smith CommunityMVP

                  >see one particular user

                   

                  Every message thread has a "Report Abuse" link... if you feel someone is being abusive... click the link

                  • 7. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                    Gyno-jiz Community Member

                    Unfortunately, that sends an email to the offending user, letting them know they're getting under someone's skin, which is exactly the opposite of how it should be (it has been a while since I was reported for abuse, so maybe this has changed). It's great for reporting spam, though.

                    • 8. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                      Aegis Kleais Community Member

                      All "arguments" can be done in a civil and respectful manner.  I've been on forums where the "community" has decayed into an unmoderated mass of sarcasm, snide comments, destructive criticism and hatred.  Personally, I have no desire to be a part of that type of community.

                       

                      We can all have different opinions, but as long as we respect each other for their time, knowledge and experience, everything should stay on the up and up.

                      • 9. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                        dec9 Community Member

                        When someone posts on here and they steal the software: it is on. The buttheads deserve to be attacked.

                         

                        This forum has really toned down since the new board software came into town. A lot of real pro's, people who eat and breathe Photoshop, left in droves never to be seen again. Other then Lawrence beating me up once in a while for my spelling errors () this place is really calm now. Not like the good ole days that John already pointed out.

                         

                        For the most part some people have locked horns and moved on to the next subject. Nobody lost a eye and there were no animals injured.

                        • 10. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                          the_wine_snob Community Member
                          Unfortunately, that sends an email to the offending user, letting them know they're getting under someone's skin, which is exactly the opposite of how it should be...

                          J,

                           

                          Not quite sure that I agree with you here. If a person is being abusive, or is accused of being so, maybe a bit of a "nudge" will get their attention? It would with me.

                           

                          Over the decades, I have observed many great contributors, who, for whatever reason, has limited "people skills." They did solve issues quickly, and did provide tips on how to do a particular operation, but did so in an abrasive way. Hey, that is why T/S and C/S are never invited to the Official Adobe Picnic at the same time - different jobs, requiring different skills.

                           

                          Some people know the subject better than almost everyone else, while some great teachers, might not be blessed with that infinite knowledge. Who is the better? Only the poster can make that distinction.

                           

                          Now, if one knows the product intimately, maybe all they need is a bit of a critique on presenting that knowledge in a most useful manner. One would never want to loose an expert, or at least they should not. OTOH, maybe the forum would be best served, if they made a few modifications in their delivery.

                           

                          If I became aware that I was doing something wrong in my replies to posters, I would want to know. I would then work to make necessary changes, what ever they might be. Along those very lines, I have been contacted on a food/wine board, by some MOD's, with issues. Most are "bogus," in my eyes, but a very few have made an impression, and I have altered a few habits. I have learned a few things. Though I might not agree with every complaint, I appreciate the critique. Even when I feel 100% confident that I followed every guideline, I review all posts to that thread. Maybe I was too deeply into my evening wine tastings?

                           

                          Though I might disagree with you on this particular subject, I still respect your contributions and toast your knowledge and the help that you have supplied to so many PS users. That is what it should be about.

                           

                          Hunt

                          • 11. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                            the_wine_snob Community Member

                            I do agree, regarding the civility, but have to admit that I have not seen, what you seem to be alluding to. Now, I do not hang out here, as much as I once did. I just do not see what it appears that you are talking about, but might just have missed it.

                             

                            Most of the replies that I see are trying to address the OP's question, or problem. There are few riffs, by my observations. Do you have any specific instances? Like I said, maybe I am missing something.

                             

                            Good luck,

                             

                            Hunt

                            • 12. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                              the_wine_snob Community Member

                              Now, you do bring up a real issue. I have not seen as much of this behavior, as I have in the past, when dozens of warez-kiddies would show up and demand that the forum regulars help them get their pirated versions up and running. Over time, I think that I have seen most of the possible excuses for justification and rationalization - "I'm a poor artist, poor student, father of 43, avowed anti-capitalist communist, paying for my dad' habit... " In the end, the answer is the same, "we all paid for our version of PS (or fill in the blank), and support Adobe."

                               

                              Hope that we see fewer of these, as the years go by.

                               

                              Hunt

                              • 13. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                Mylenium CommunityMVP

                                Hope that we see fewer of these, as the years go by.

                                 

                                But the overzealous kids with no skill or talent make all up for it....

                                 

                                Mylenium

                                • 14. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                  acresofgreen Community Member
                                  function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                  dec9 wrote:


                                  ...

                                   

                                  This forum has really toned down since the new board software came into town. A lot of real pro's, people who eat and breathe Photoshop, left in droves never to be seen again.


                                  When I joined these forums the new board software was already in place.  I actually find these forums pretty usable. What was so much better about the old software? Was it more customer-friendly, or was it just a matter of not being able to migrate threads and profiles that made people leave?

                                  • 15. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                    Mylenium CommunityMVP

                                    The old forum was snappier. It used simple list views and no fancies at all, which worked reasonably well within the whole Adobe site, which, as we all know, is generally a tad on the slow side. The current forum is much laggier due to al lthat JavaScript stuff bringing more overhead. As to why people leave or get removed is open to speculation and certainly not something relevant for a public user-to-user forum. There are other places for that.

                                     

                                    Mylenium

                                    • 16. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                      Noel Carboni Community Member

                                      Great thoughts, all.  Thank you.

                                       

                                      To me it seems healthy debate comes from being passionate about concepts and ideas, and the best debate attempts to separate itself as best it can from personalities.

                                       

                                      Attempts to suppress a viewpoint, on the other hand, are just the opposite, unhealthy to the extreme.

                                       

                                      Some years of participation on photo/art review sites have taught me that an "Oreo cookie" approach is often good.  Say something nice, present your critique, then say something good again to wrap up.  This builds on the theory that a person will only listen to you if they feel good about hearing from you.  Of course this doesn't directly apply to many types of questions/threads.

                                       

                                      I have to agree wholeheartedly with one point noted above:  I'm not at all tolerant of people wanting help stealing software.  Being stern but respectful in that case may influence some idiot into doing the right thing - or not (he must be an idiot for announcing publicly that he's stealing).  I like to point out to them that people feed their families on the proceeds made from selling software, and how would they like it if we just went and stole their stuff.  One day they'll grow up.

                                       

                                      -Noel

                                      • 17. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                        OldBob1957 Community Member

                                        Noel Carboni wrote:

                                         

                                        I have to agree wholeheartedly with one point noted above:  I'm not at all tolerant of people wanting help stealing software.  Being stern but respectful in that case may influence some idiot into doing the right thing - or not (he must be an idiot for announcing publicly that he's stealing).  I like to point out to them that people feed their families on the proceeds made from selling software, and how would they like it if we just went and stole their stuff.  One day they'll grow up.

                                         

                                        -Noel

                                         

                                        You are much more of an optimist than I, sir.

                                         

                                        But, good thoughts, nonetheless.

                                        • 18. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                          Aegis Kleais Community Member

                                          Noel, your analogy assumes that the chocolate cookie of an oreo is in some way, superior to the creme, and therefore inappropriately depicted as the positive.

                                           

                                          I submit to you the fact that Nabisco doesn't make "Double Cookie Oreos" but instead, "Double STUFF (creme) Oreos".  We all know which part of the Oreo is most delicious.

                                           

                                          I rest my case.

                                           

                                          ....now where can I find some Oreos?

                                          • 19. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                            Bart Cross Community Member

                                            What I found a little bit vial about pirate software was that quite people were being accused before there was any proof. My concept was that eventually these individuals do say something that indicates they have pirate software and my view is too make my opposition clear at that point and refuse help. I would just prefer that people weren't putting the cart before the horse in this case.

                                            • 20. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                              Hudechrome Community Member

                                              Some people come here to be directors and not participants. Being a participant means a certain equality at a basic human level while director means I trump you because i have more___(fill in the blank). I appreciate those who truly participate because this is a group of interested and informed although on different levels and in different degrees. When the heavyweights tread lightly and with respect for the dignity of the posters, I am relieved. Their egos are not tied up in being BMOC.

                                               

                                              I'm reminded here of a story about Albert Einstein. He was invited to address a gathering, IIRC and when he was introduced, he got up and said Thank you, I have nothing to say and sat down, to the shock and consternation of the audience. Sensing this discomfort, he rose again and said  When I have something to say, Ill be glad to come back and say it. (no quote as I am running on memory here!).

                                               

                                              That has stayed with me ever since.

                                              • 22. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                the_wine_snob Community Member
                                                But the overzealous kids with no skill or talent make all up for it....

                                                 

                                                Yes, so true!

                                                 

                                                Hunt

                                                • 23. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                  the_wine_snob Community Member
                                                  The old forum was snappier.

                                                  I also felt that Search was much more useful, and greatly appreciated the "flags," and the "New" banners on replies, since I was last there.

                                                   

                                                  However, for all my complaining, I have just gotten over it - mostly.

                                                   

                                                  Hunt

                                                  • 24. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                    the_wine_snob Community Member

                                                    Bart,

                                                     

                                                    I always feel that asking a question - "is this the full-paid version, or did you buy from ____?" usually points things up quickly.

                                                     

                                                    Usually, the poor poster was actually a victim of attempting to get a good price, and are surprised that they have pirated software. A very few are not surprised (guess that the key-gen gave it away?), and then go on to try and defend their use of such software. Never have heard a worthy excuse, but I'm so danged old-school, that it takes a lot of convincing.

                                                     

                                                    Hunt

                                                    • 25. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                      the_wine_snob Community Member

                                                      Your observations have a lot of merit. Going back to before the days of the Internet, when everything similar was in News Groups, there was a cute (but true) list of "the usual suspects," with descriptions of how they participated and were likely to react. I cannot find my link to that list of "characters," but if I do, will attach it. It would not have taken one long, before they found most of the players. Heck, I found myself in that list, very quickly.

                                                       

                                                      Hunt

                                                      • 26. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                        Bart Cross Community Member

                                                        Well the point I was making was they would make the accusation before the question. It really got out of hand.

                                                        • 27. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                          TLL... Community Member

                                                          "A lot of real pro's, people who eat and breathe Photoshop, left in droves never to be seen again."

                                                           

                                                          Where did they go? I heard Facebook, but no thanks to that. I miss those folks, even the occasional pissing contests. Not that 'yous guys aren't interesting or anything like that. It's just hard not to feel that the pool of knowledge around here has gotten diluted. Or is that deluded?

                                                          My spelling sucks too...

                                                          • 28. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                            Community Member

                                                            TLL... wrote:

                                                            Where did they go?

                                                            Retirement. They can still be found via their business web sites.

                                                            • 29. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                              Hudechrome Community Member

                                                              Yeah, Facebook. I signed on but after seeing what happened to their privacy attitude, I don't interact there, and am glad I have minimal personal info to be mined.

                                                              • 30. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                TLL... Community Member

                                                                Retirement? You mean people in the imaging biz can actually RETIRE?

                                                                Wow, I guess there is still hope for this economy ...

                                                                • 31. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                  Noel Carboni Community Member
                                                                  function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                                  TLL... wrote:


                                                                  "A lot of real pro's, people who eat and breathe Photoshop, left in droves never to be seen again."

                                                                   

                                                                  Where did they go?

                                                                   

                                                                  And pertinently, why did they go?

                                                                   

                                                                  • Did they leave because they stopped learning new things?  One can certainly become burned out with helping people who have very basic problems and need to update their video drivers or who don't know what a layer is.

                                                                   

                                                                  • Did they leave because they found it continually irritating to argue with other people who were intolerant of others' viewpoints?  Perhaps they expected to earn some respect rather than having to endure ongoing bickering.

                                                                   

                                                                  • Did they leave because there's another place that's just better to be at?  One perhaps without brain-damaged forum software that challenges one to express oneself in the most basic manner?    On this last point I must say (other than the Jive software) it would surprise me to find another forum in which product engineers participate actively, lots of smart experts contribute, and one gets to help people freely.  Personally, I like it here.

                                                                   

                                                                  -Noel

                                                                  • 32. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                    Community Member
                                                                    • Some of them vowed not to purchase more Adobe software because of grudges or disinterest in useless bells and whistles found in newer releases. Some never upgraded to Intel Macs and have fallen out of relevance with modern software.

                                                                     

                                                                    • Some of those that left were themselves intolerant of others' viewpoints.

                                                                     

                                                                    • Some of those that left were more photographers than photo editors. You might see them on photography forums now. One major issue they had was a change in the forum policy that granted Adobe rights to any image that they would post here.

                                                                     

                                                                    • And most importantly, and relevant to this topic, some were kicked for unprofessional behavior.
                                                                    • 33. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                      John Joslin Community Member

                                                                      Forget the handful that were banned – it is the true industry pros, with expertise from all stages of production that are missed here.


                                                                      It is interesting that they all disappeared at the time of the switch to jive or at the latest when it became obvious that hardly any of the comments on the new software would or could be acted upon.


                                                                      • 34. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                        Community Member

                                                                        The internets have been changing and those that left likely found a better use of their time. Some may have monetized their knowledge by becoming authors/trainers. Some may have simply realized that YouTube, Lynda and the like have become a much more useful venue for graphic learning than this forum limited to text and still pictures.

                                                                         

                                                                        The exodus was not just due to the change in forum software. Forum hosts changed a bit. Cliques were shaken up a bit.

                                                                         

                                                                        The attitude has certainly changed here. We can find many old posts where people admitted to being intimidated from posting here. They were afraid of some of the unprofessional behavior coming from people offering professional advice. Those intimidating regular posters are now managed with 'report abuse' links and a very loose registration system is now more welcoming to elementary posters (and too welcoming of spammers).

                                                                        • 35. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                          Bart Cross Community Member

                                                                          "intimidating regular posters are now managed with 'report abuse' links."

                                                                           

                                                                          Marian you tried that three times with me and not one of your complaints held up. You're so full of yourself.

                                                                          • 36. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                            Community Member

                                                                            I'm not sure what you are talking about but if I complained about one of your posts and the moderators found no offense, what is your problem? Or are you upset that the moderators failed to censor something you are not proud of?  You are more than welcome to censor yourself.

                                                                             

                                                                            I'm full of no one. Please do not hold me responsible for your nuttiness. 

                                                                            • 37. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                              dec9 Community Member

                                                                              Bart the Intimidator: Has a nice 15th century ring to it.

                                                                              • 38. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                                Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                                Some random thoughts...

                                                                                 

                                                                                • If you're sure about something, try it yourself just in case.  I don't know how many times I have been ready to post something only to find out I had a detail wrong.

                                                                                 

                                                                                • If you're unsure about something, contribute your thoughts anyway, but say "I'm not completely sure about this - someone correct me if I'm wrong..."  Sometimes such posts spark discussion that leads to a good answer.  You might also learn about something, and it doesn't hurt to admit that you're not perfect.

                                                                                 

                                                                                • If you're proposing opinion, the phrase "In my humble opinion" is nice, and goes a long way toward lowering the stress level.  It's good to remind oneself to be humble, especially where opinion is concerned.

                                                                                 

                                                                                • Never forget that all this stuff is just dark and light spots on a screen, easily ignored.  Right up until someone jumps on a plane and comes to your house to beat you to a pulp because of what you said about them in public, anyway. 

                                                                                 

                                                                                -Noel

                                                                                • 39. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                                  John Joslin Community Member

                                                                                  Not only are the experts missing, the fun has gone too.

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

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