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      • 40. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
        Community Member

        The internets have been changing and those that left likely found a better use of their time. Some may have monetized their knowledge by becoming authors/trainers. Some may have simply realized that YouTube, Lynda and the like have become a much more useful venue for graphic learning than this forum limited to text and still pictures.

         

        The exodus was not just due to the change in forum software. Forum hosts changed a bit. Cliques were shaken up a bit.

         

        The attitude has certainly changed here. We can find many old posts where people admitted to being intimidated from posting here. They were afraid of some of the unprofessional behavior coming from people offering professional advice. Those intimidating regular posters are now managed with 'report abuse' links and a very loose registration system is now more welcoming to elementary posters (and too welcoming of spammers).

        • 41. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
          Bart Cross Community Member

          "intimidating regular posters are now managed with 'report abuse' links."

           

          Marian you tried that three times with me and not one of your complaints held up. You're so full of yourself.

          • 42. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
            Community Member

            I'm not sure what you are talking about but if I complained about one of your posts and the moderators found no offense, what is your problem? Or are you upset that the moderators failed to censor something you are not proud of?  You are more than welcome to censor yourself.

             

            I'm full of no one. Please do not hold me responsible for your nuttiness. 

            • 43. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
              dec9 Community Member

              Bart the Intimidator: Has a nice 15th century ring to it.

              • 44. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                Noel Carboni Community Member

                Some random thoughts...

                 

                • If you're sure about something, try it yourself just in case.  I don't know how many times I have been ready to post something only to find out I had a detail wrong.

                 

                • If you're unsure about something, contribute your thoughts anyway, but say "I'm not completely sure about this - someone correct me if I'm wrong..."  Sometimes such posts spark discussion that leads to a good answer.  You might also learn about something, and it doesn't hurt to admit that you're not perfect.

                 

                • If you're proposing opinion, the phrase "In my humble opinion" is nice, and goes a long way toward lowering the stress level.  It's good to remind oneself to be humble, especially where opinion is concerned.

                 

                • Never forget that all this stuff is just dark and light spots on a screen, easily ignored.  Right up until someone jumps on a plane and comes to your house to beat you to a pulp because of what you said about them in public, anyway. 

                 

                -Noel

                • 45. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                  John Joslin Community Member

                  Not only are the experts missing, the fun has gone too.

                   

                   

                  • 46. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                    Hudechrome Community Member

                    The Intimidator is one of the key components that got the Trail Blazers the NBA Championship.(If you hafta look for it, you are too young! )

                    Don't dis the Intimidator!

                    • 47. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                      Bart Cross Community Member

                      Well I still wuv me!


                      How's that for intimidatin'?

                      • 48. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                        Noel Carboni Community Member

                        The world is what we make it, John.

                         

                        One wonders what your post count would be if it were fun... 

                         

                        -Noel

                        • 49. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                          Reynolds (Mark) Community Member
                          • Some of them vowed not to purchase more Adobe software because of grudges or disinterest in useless bells and whistles found in newer releases. Some never upgraded to Intel Macs and have fallen out of relevance with modern software.

                           

                          • Some of those that left were themselves intolerant of others' viewpoints.

                           

                          • Some of those that left were more photographers than photo editors. You might see them on photography forums now. One major issue they had was a change in the forum policy that granted Adobe rights to any image that they would post here.

                           

                          • And most importantly, and relevant to this topic, some were kicked for unprofessional behavior.

                           

                           

                          • and some of them very sadly re-registered under false names.

                           

                          I think my perception of the forums is that they seem to be better than they were a few years ago.

                           

                          The way I used to see it, and I could be wrong, is that there were certain very heavy posters who didn't seem to actually know anything of value at all. Certainly nothing that could be filed under the lofty title of "expertise". And unfortunately these very same individuals used to routinely give skewed and prejudicial advice, not aimed at helping anyone out at all. Indeed it seemed more important to condescend almost anyone who dared to pose a question. Not sure if it was connected, but this whole situation got so bad that all Adobe staff stopped contributing for a while. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm talking about all 3 Photoshop forums here.

                          • 50. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                            Noel Carboni Community Member

                            What is it about spending a lifetime learning to use something adeptly, then wanting to help other people to learn to use it, that should cause friction with others whose approaches may be different?

                             

                            • An inability to believe that after all that effort there could actually be another "good" way to do things (in the extreme the inability to admit there could be ANY other way than one's own)?

                             

                            • Simple resistance to change?

                             

                            • Not Invented Here syndrome?

                             

                            • "In our little club, we frown on that - nyah"?

                             

                            • "That other way doesn't help sell my books"?

                             

                            • "I can't think this stuff up on my own, so I'll tow the line of the last book I read, which must be right - I paid good money for it"?

                             

                            Some folks seem so completely closed off to alternate ideas that they actively try to suppress others' viewpoints.  That's a real head shaker from where I sit.

                             

                            -Noel

                            • 51. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                              Hudechrome Community Member

                              I run like hell from the above!

                               

                              I really am so grateful that Tektronix hired this young(ish) whippersnapper from Chicago, got him to suspend disbelief long enough to learn something.

                              • 52. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                Gyno-jiz Community Member

                                "Some folks" would love to know what posts in particular you might be talking about.

                                 

                                When you posted that C=M=Y would make a neutral gray, I stepped in and told you that was wrong. I didn't respect your opinion or respond out of fear that what I'd read in books might be a solution looking for a problem.

                                 

                                Too many forums are filled with straight bull where no posters step in with the smack down. I, for one, appreciate our little club of overlords.

                                 

                                I find it totally ironic and disingenuous that you bring up the booksellers, when you yourself have plugins for sale that you can't resist dropping into every image you post. Your language reeks of contempt in a post aimed at ratting it out.

                                • 53. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                  Hudechrome Community Member

                                  One person in particular would post to a Windows question an answer that was then followed by a disclaimer of any expertise in Windows! And you are right. Call him on it and he became insufferably condescending.

                                  • 54. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                    dec9 Community Member

                                    To address oneself as a software developer who makes plugins for Photoshop is a qualyfier towards future sales: Least that is how I read it. Maybe I am wrong.

                                    • 55. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                      dec9 Community Member

                                      That would be a MAC type, wanna be a Windows person, trying to come out of the closet.

                                      • 56. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                        Noel Carboni Community Member

                                        J Maloney, I am not and have not been talking about you, so your burning ears may be from something else.

                                         

                                        That you wish to turn this into a personal thing goes against the very message of this thread.  I am speaking of ideas, and you want to talk about people.  I am not going to get any more specific.  I brought the things above up to spur conversation.  Do you think I'm talking about ME and threads I'm involved in NOW?  How shallow do you think I am?

                                         

                                        I am a plugin developer, I make no secret of that.  But I have not mentioned those plugins by name on this forum, nor do I intend to "sell" here.  I invite you to show me where I have done any of that!  And as far as I can tell, I have not sold any plugins because of anything here; certainly no one so far has mentioned this forum in my "how did you hear about us" feedback.

                                         

                                        I am a professional - I make money from the sale of products into the Photoshop market.  I also make money from image products that I create with Photoshop, and I contract and consult about imaging and other software.  Would you have me not participate here because of a conflict of interest?  What do you do to make money, by the way?  Shall we examine your motivations as well?  Do you see how even bringing that up is tacky?

                                         

                                        Plain and simple, what being a plugin developer does is give me some credibility that I actually do know some of what's going on under the Photoshop covers.

                                         

                                        And regarding the CMYK thread you mentioned, did I not state that I was not sure and literally invite you to correct me?  I appreciated that, I really did - I learned something.  In fact, it's a great example where I practiced what I have preached in this thread:  I tried to help, stated when I wasn't sure about something, and accepted correction graciously.  And show me how you failed to respect my opinion?  I thought you handled that interchange very nicely.

                                         

                                        It's all there in black and white pixels.  Go re-read it.

                                         

                                        -Noel

                                        • 57. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                          Hudechrome Community Member

                                          You got that right!

                                          • 58. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                            John Joslin Community Member

                                            It is not about who knows what and who is right or wrong – it is about attitude.


                                            In the last few weeks not only has the challenge gone out of helping in here, there is a distinct attempt going on to take over the morals and standards of the forum to mould it into a sort of lovey-dovey Photoshop nursery.


                                            Although a Photoshop "professional" is literally someone who makes his living from the product, in fact he has to exhibit more than that in my book. And professionals do not suffer fools gladly – they haven't got the time.


                                            The sad fact is that, when the true professionals nearly all left, I stopped learning anything in here. Except that some people can be incredibly annnoying.



                                            (Footnote: I am not a professional Photoshopper , I am a professional aerospace engineer.)

                                            • 59. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                              Yammer Community Member

                                              I used to spend a lot of time on the Adobe forums a couple of years ago, but one or two guys seemed to have it in for me. I don't think I deserved it, but I'm biased. In my defence, they seemed to have it in for a lot of people who didn't seem to deserve it either. I stopped coming. Life's too short.

                                               

                                              I recently came back to these forums for information and found that these characters had gone. So I've quite happily enjoyed a new period of Adobe forum life. No Good Old Days for me. Manners cost nothing. I enjoy online discussion with polite, helpful, and enlightened souls - it's a much nicer environment to deal with. I enjoy a bit of healthy and sometimes heated debate too, as long as the protagonists play respectfully.

                                              • 60. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                acresofgreen Community Member
                                                function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                John Joslin wrote:


                                                And professionals do not suffer fools gladly – they haven't got the time.

                                                 

                                                I know lots of IT professionals, and from my personal experience, they are like everyone else:  some are mild-mannered and don't get ruffled easily and some aren't and do.  (Interestingly enough, some of the kindest individuals when you get to know them in person have an uncompromising and confrontational alter-ego in newsgroups and forums!)  Time is not the issue. The most choleric of the experts waste an unbelievable amount of time arguing and exchanging insults.

                                                • 61. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                  D Fosse-QDEaQ1 Community Member

                                                  Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                   

                                                  Some folks seem so completely closed off to alternate ideas that they actively try to suppress others' viewpoints

                                                  You're really hung up on this, aren't you?

                                                   

                                                  Some things are open to viewpoints and interpretations and preferences. Nobody's trying to curb any discussions on that.

                                                   

                                                  Other things are just the way things work. They're not open to personal interpretation. There is a right and a wrong answer: it works like this, not like that.

                                                   

                                                  And when someone hands out the wrong answer, others have to step in and blow the whistle. There's no room for niceties and politeness then. We've all been corrected on factual mistakes. We all have to eat it up and move on.

                                                  • 62. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                    Rupert919

                                                    As an absolute beginner with PS I have spent many hours reading the forums to answer my queries and pick up ideas.

                                                    Upon reading the start of this thread a quotation came to mind...

                                                     

                                                    "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

                                                    • 63. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                      Noel Carboni Community Member
                                                      function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                      function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                      You're really hung up on this, aren't you?

                                                       

                                                      Why an attempt to make this thread personal?  Are you not actually getting the message here?

                                                       

                                                      Regarding viewpoint suppression:

                                                       

                                                      A forum post that's absolutely unacceptable by any measure is a post that says something like "Anyone reading this:  Don't listen to this person."

                                                       

                                                      function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                      function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                      Nobody's trying to curb any discussions on that.

                                                       

                                                      Other things are just the way things work. They're not open to personal interpretation. There is a right and a wrong answer: it works like this, not like that.

                                                       

                                                      And when someone hands out the wrong answer, others have to step in and blow the whistle. There's no room for niceties and politeness then. We've all been corrected on factual mistakes. We all have to eat it up and move on.

                                                       

                                                      In the real world this pre-supposes that the "corrector" knows all there is to know about the subject, that they have fully understood what the "correctee" meant, and that the "correctee" could not possibly have a real or good reason for doing/saying it that's beyond the understanding of the "corrector".

                                                       

                                                      No room for niceties?  Those claiming rudeness is acceptable or necessary clearly have little experience interacting successfully with actual people.  You like to be rude?  Be prepared for people to ignore you and be rude right back.  You want to be nice?  Be prepared for people to actually listen to you.  Which outcome are you seeking?

                                                       

                                                      If you actually are seeking confrontation, then WE don't want you here.  Get lost.  Scram.  Go to a bar and pick a fight.  You don't like the generalization "WE"?  Stop talking like that yourself.

                                                       

                                                      How people choose to work with Photoshop is, in fact, open to a lot of interpretation.  Not everyone's needs are the same.  There almost always is no "right" or "wrong" way to do something.  What's a great way for a seasoned user might be beyond a beginner.  What a master does might be beyond an expert.

                                                       

                                                      -Noel

                                                      • 64. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                        John Joslin Community Member

                                                        So you are now the self-nominated spokesperson for this forum eh?

                                                         

                                                        <walks off chuckling>

                                                        • 65. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                          I used that "WE" language on purpose to illustrate just how arrogant it really is to talk like that.  Certain readers should take note, as they are fond of doing so.

                                                           

                                                          -Noel

                                                          • 66. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                            John Joslin Community Member

                                                            This forum has a perfectly good moderator.


                                                            It is superfluous to try and do his job just because a few people disagree with some of your statements.


                                                            • 67. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                              Bart Cross Community Member

                                                              Just woke up from a good night's sleep to all this flooding my inbox. Hmmmm, think I'll go back to sleep.

                                                              • 68. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                You do know that you can disable that "subscribe to thread automatically" thing, right Bart? 

                                                                 

                                                                -Noel

                                                                • 69. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                  Noel Carboni Community Member
                                                                  function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                                  John Joslin wrote:


                                                                  This forum has a perfectly good moderator.

                                                                   

                                                                  It is superfluous to try and do his job just because a few people disagree with some of your statements.

                                                                   

                                                                  Again with the attempt to personalize the discussion.  Let's talk about ideas, not people, shall we?

                                                                   

                                                                  It's great when people disagree and debate ideas.  Everyone learns.  Everyone wins.

                                                                   

                                                                  Making things personal is for losers. 

                                                                   

                                                                  -Noel

                                                                  • 70. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                    John Joslin Community Member

                                                                    Keep diggin' son — I'm outa here!

                                                                    • 71. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                      Bart Cross Community Member

                                                                      Hey, you woke me up for that?

                                                                      • 72. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                        D Fosse-QDEaQ1 Community Member

                                                                        You just don't get it, Noel. You yourself assume the role of the greatest authority here.

                                                                         

                                                                        You do it by the sheer number of posts.

                                                                         

                                                                        You do it by the fake Photoshop logo in your avatar (which spells it out in case anyone misses the point).

                                                                         

                                                                        And you do it by missing no opportunity to speak of your "long experience" as a "software engineer", and using that even when you're way out of your depths.

                                                                         

                                                                        If you or others spread factually wrong information, I will say so. This is nothing personal. I don't care what you do on your own time. I don't care if you like me or not.

                                                                         

                                                                        I care about what you are telling people.

                                                                        • 73. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                          I welcome being corrected whenever and wherever I might make a mistake.  And generally I'll say so when I'm not sure about something in advance.

                                                                           

                                                                          Matter of fact just the other day I made a mistake, right here on this forum.  I was virtually convinced I had gotten an answer wrong...

                                                                          But I was mistaken. 

                                                                           

                                                                          function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                                          D Fosse wrote:


                                                                          the sheer number of posts.

                                                                           

                                                                            Says the man with 2,681 posts.  I am but an egg.

                                                                           

                                                                          I thought you were leaving.  I'm glad I could attract you back with this discussion.

                                                                           

                                                                          -Noel

                                                                          • 74. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                            Bart Cross Community Member

                                                                            Stop pissing on people who do large number of posts. KGLAD, in the flash forum has more posts than all of you combined. He is a tremendous assest to that forum and he freely shares his knowledge and does so with emmense grace. You could all learn from the man.

                                                                            • 75. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                              Hudechrome Community Member

                                                                              "There's no room for niceties and politeness then."

                                                                               

                                                                              Seriously? What's the alternative, harshness? I think not. Politeness and I would inject, diplomacy, is the order of the day.

                                                                              • 76. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                                Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                                I agree.  More is better.  Much more is much better.  John Joslin is my hero! 

                                                                                 

                                                                                -Noel

                                                                                • 77. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                                  D Fosse-QDEaQ1 Community Member

                                                                                  Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I welcome being corrected whenever and wherever I might make a mistake

                                                                                  No you don't, you never do, and that's the whole problem.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  That's why we're having this argument.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  The CMYK thread was such a glaring faux pas that it doesn't even count. There are numerous other examples where you just dig your heels in and refuse to listen to facts, because you know better with your vast experience. If you want me to quote examples the whole monitor calibration argument is a big lump of them. Take your pick.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  You really need to get off your high horse. And that's a fact.

                                                                                  • 78. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                                    Hudechrome Community Member

                                                                                    Not true, D. In the exchange where I attempted to run his version of monitor calibration, I came up with results that challenged, or at least, questioned the method with the results I found. Noel went back, re-examined the process and agreed with me.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Noel is assertive, as one should be when the occasion demands it. The best part of being assertive is it injects, when all the factors come to light, a way to test the premise, conjecture theory, whatever. If the information is couched in weasel words, nothing can be concluded except that the deduces are wild.

                                                                                    • 79. Re: Professionalism on the Photoshop Windows Forum
                                                                                      D Fosse-QDEaQ1 Community Member

                                                                                      Hudechrome wrote:

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Politeness and I would inject, diplomacy, is the order of the day.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Sure, as long as politeness and diplomacy gets through. When it doesn't, you need to take off the gloves.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      The main thing is that the ignorance doesn't proliferate.