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1. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christian Jolly Sep 29, 2010 6:31 AM (in response to Christopher Duncan)A shotgun mic is probably a useful tool in the arsenal. When I go to the boom pole, I stick my Rode NTG-2 on there and route it either directly to the camera (rarely) or have the audio tech record to a Zoom H4n. Synch in post isn't hard, I usually either have a clap/marker or just use the waveform nudging technique.
There's also a "plug-in" from Singular Software called Pluarl Eyes that will automatically synch multiple audio tracks for you.
I don't require the highest quality audio, so my shotgun mic solution works great. Lots of off axis rejection, perfect for group/ensemble recording. Probably the worst noise offender is the boompole handling noise, rather than the mic or other ambient sounds.
Hope this helps!
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2. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christopher Duncan Sep 29, 2010 6:45 AM (in response to Christian Jolly)Hi, Christian.
Great stuff, thanks so much for taking the time. I'll look into the NTG-2. Quality wise, Rode has always been a huge bang for the buck. I actually compared the NT-1 to a couiple of Neumanns large diaphrams before buying and was astounded by how closely the quality compared.
I have a Zoom and in fact that was one of the field recorders I was considering. I could always fire up Nuendo on a laptop into a USB pre, but that's a lot of extra hassle to lug around on set. I was thinking about the clapper / marker approach to sync as aligning waveforms is reasonably easy, but didn't know if that's what the pros did or not. The plugin looks interesting, but I do all my mixing in audio apps rather than video, so eyeballing is probably where I'll end up.
Appreciate the insights!
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3. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christian Jolly Sep 29, 2010 8:43 AM (in response to Christopher Duncan)Yeah, love the Rode products.
Yeah, no real advantage to going direct via USB when you can get good audio right on the SD card.
Definitely, the pros use a clapboard to sync audio and video. Most major productions don't record the audio and video on the same device (at least not the MAIN audio, like dialogue and such). And for multicam productions, the standard technique to sync video is to use a camera flash that all the cameras can see (usually more than one flash, just in case any of the cameras didn't see the first one, such as in long GOP recordings).
The plugin is nice, especially if you have a production like I did a few months ago...4 cameras, 7 audio tracks (stage, audience, mixer, and 4 camera on-board sound). Especially when there are tape changes, multiple clips, and so on. Having a plug in that just goes "boom, done" would have saved me a couple hours with as much footage as I was working with.
I say "would have" because the plug-in was only in beta for Premiere Pro at that time, and it was super buggy and really a failure...so I wast stuck matching the waveforms manually as usual.
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4. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christopher Duncan Sep 29, 2010 10:25 AM (in response to Christian Jolly)The joys of beta products, eh? I know what you mean about labor saving devices, though. It took me a while to get over my musician's ego and just buy some production music, even though I write comparable stuff myself. It's all about hitting the deadlines!
By the way, just ordered the Rode shotgun, thanks for the tip. And of course, no outfit is complete without a Deadcat windscreen (I noticed they have a smaller version called the dead kitten). Love those guys.
Guess I should pony up for a clapboard as well. Any advice on those, or are they pretty much the same thing and the cheapest one wins?
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5. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christian Jolly Sep 29, 2010 11:03 AM (in response to Christopher Duncan)Yeah, I actually came into production from music myself (video production pay isn't great, but music industry pay is terrible). I did the same thing, thinking I'd manage my own production music library, since most tracks were hard to satisfy my musician's ear. But all my clients love it. There is some really crappy stuff out there...not naming names...
I've used the deadcat as well, very effective. Good names.
Clapboard...probably not as necessary, so long as you can make a distinctive clap with your hands that is both audibly sharp and clear to the lens. But a clapboard probably will make your clients want to pay you at least double...so there's that consideration....
Just get a cheap one from B&H, usually just $20 or $30. Markertek.com also has a few to choose from.
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6. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christopher Duncan Sep 29, 2010 11:19 AM (in response to Christian Jolly)Hey, anything that gets me paid double is worth the price!
Yeah, don't get me started about the music industry. Worked for ages playing bars, eventually got tired of the combination of Kraft macaroni & cheese and playing gigs I didn't particularly enjoy just to pay the bills.
I'm attacking video from a different angle. Rather than trying to make a living as an editor or other production type, or figuring out how to monetize content in an age where everyone thinks they should be able to download whatever they want for free, I'm using video as a part of my marketing business. Both mobile and video are the two rising stars in the marketing world, so I plan on leveraging such talents as I have to make money for my clients and thus for myself.
And hey, if I happen to have a little fun along the way, no harm in that.
I bought some sound effects and production music from VideoCopilot.net, which have served me well thus far. And frankly, for all I've learned from this guy's After Effects tutorials (almost none of which require his products), I was really looking for an excuse to spend money with him. I think people like that should be supported. What production music sources have you been happy with?
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7. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christian Jolly Sep 29, 2010 11:34 AM (in response to Christopher Duncan)Digital Juice had a few collections of StackTraxx released in the last 2-3 years that were quite good (some of the orchestral pieces, some of the top 40 stuff and some of the hip-hop collection as well). Most of their stuff wasn't so great, too "electronic" for me.
Video Helper is really the best. You'll hear their music all over the place (radio, TV, even a few movies have sampled their tracks). It's not the cheapest (and also not royalty free...you pay needle drop rates) but for those times when you need GREAT tracks for a piece, it's as good as you will find anywhere.
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8. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Chuck A. McIntyre Sep 29, 2010 12:41 PM (in response to Christopher Duncan)Christopher:
The following Google sponsored seo video reminded me of your post and the importance of quality audio.
http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2007/11/anatomy-of-search-result.html
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9. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christopher Duncan Sep 29, 2010 3:37 PM (in response to Chuck A. McIntyre)> The following Google sponsored seo video reminded me of your post and the importance of quality audio.
Ouch.
It always amazes me how low the bar seems to be for quality work these days. Guess it makes life better for guys like you & me, eh?
By the way, about done with the web redesign and now whacking out the mobile version. Once that's done, I'm gonna need a Matilda's break!
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10. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christian Jolly Sep 29, 2010 4:37 PM (in response to Chuck A. McIntyre)Wow, that audio is a joke...how much do headphones cost these days?
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11. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
shooternz Sep 29, 2010 6:05 PM (in response to Christopher Duncan)Hey Chris
I have kind of followed and skimmed this thread only .
My advice is to consider SYNCH carefully and do it properly. ,,, and choose good hardware
There are many ways to to record synch on location and... sometimes its hardware and sometimes its the situation that determines how it is done,
Technology has helped and hindered the workflow. (The old ways all ways work. eg a clapper board) - but not necessarily in all situations.
Here are some thoughts ( and I am not a sound guy) from thirty five plus years of shooting and editing. (experience)
Sound guys use top quality Shotgun mics (on booms) recording into top quality recorders as first preference. Isolates the sound and focuses it.
Radio mics are only used to solve issues or for convenience in some situations.
They record multiple mics on location if possible or required. Multiple tracks are best for editors and sound engineers
FX , BG sound, ambience etc are recorded wild / synched but generally separately /isolated .
Do not mix mics as a single audio source as you shoot. Separate tracks are important for control of levels and editing flexibility.
SYNCH
Try and utilise TIME Code in the workflow
If the camera can record free run TC ...Set and use it. Most Recorders can record Free run TC ( including the ZOOM)
My ultimate suggestion is to use an AUDIO Pro experienced in film recording to record AUDIO for your project.
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12. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Bill Hunt Sep 29, 2010 6:36 PM (in response to shooternz)Craig,
You make a great point about the "good old-days." We would link the Nagra to the camera, via a cable, and then let one, or the other, set the sync with its crystal clock. That was fool-proof, and I never had one frame of sync drift. Now, with digital, each device has its own internal clock, and few would ever think of using cables between them. While crystals are very good, there can be differences, and one then needs to address sync issues.
Hunt
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13. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christopher Duncan Sep 29, 2010 6:39 PM (in response to Bill Hunt)You guys make excellent points. In the recording studio, I do SMPTE sync via MIDI and I also have a master word clock on the mixer that drives that chain. Unfortunately, on the video side of the street my gear isn't that sophisticated yet. The Panasonic HMC70P is just prosumer gear and doesn't have the ability for external sync.
Looks like a clapper for now...
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14. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
able123 Sep 29, 2010 8:05 PM (in response to Christopher Duncan)dont know if this helps..probably not..as I dont know this stuff yet...( am learning it now )
I asked a sound guy on location about his timecode when jamming digtital slate and he showed me a timecode generator that was slaved to 2 recording units...
althought the recording units have their own timecode generators he uses the one he uses as it runs on batteries and when he powers down to move to another location during shoot day that unit keeps the correct timecode...and he jams the clappers pretty much like ONCE in the morning and that's it....( though I heard from the camera person with the slate that it (the clapper) generally drifts a little after about 6 hours..though she didnt know by how many frames )
sooo, if the sound guy has his recording ( with timecode display ) and editor just matches the sound recording with the slate timecode it would be in sync, I think ?? ( I'm just learning stuff so I am assuming even prosumer camera would be fairly close to correct frames per second "speed" --- maybe the digital equavalent of the old quartz crystal sync ?...
but it means jamming the slate with your sound timecode generator and then closing the clapper , freezing the timecode, and using that.
Rod
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15. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christopher Duncan Sep 29, 2010 8:09 PM (in response to able123)Everything you said is good stuff. But of course, you work with the rock stars and use all that high end, professional type gear.
Us mere mortals have prosumer cameras without any options for external sync. And don't even ask about Red!
Still, this helps as I can see that for my level, clappers and syncing waveforms is the current reality but down the line when I'm ready to buy pro level gear, timecode is something I need to keep in mind.
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16. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
shooternz Sep 29, 2010 9:22 PM (in response to Christopher Duncan)Check if your camera will run Freerun TimeCode.
I am assuming it does. (I know or I am fairly sure it wont jam synch)
Comeback with info and I will give you some detailed synch advice which will make life much easier.
Its not that difficult at all so dont sweat it.
I am trying to save you the hassle of sight matching to waveforms.
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17. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christopher Duncan Sep 30, 2010 3:08 AM (in response to shooternz)Sure appreciate the help, but the manual for the Panasonic AG-HMC70P never so much as mentions the words timecode or sync. It's just a prosumer camera, nowhere near the class of gear that you're used to working with I suspect.
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18. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christian Jolly Sep 30, 2010 4:51 AM (in response to Christopher Duncan)From looking at the HMC70 manual online, it appears to use a simple time counter (not timecode) with hours, minutes and seconds (no frames). I suppose that makes sense enough considering the typical usage, but a bit of a bummer if you're shooting multicam.
As far as I could tell, there were no free run or other timecode options at all, as you indicated.
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19. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christopher Duncan Sep 30, 2010 5:55 AM (in response to Christian Jolly)Well, in fairness to the camera, when I initially started this little sliegh ride my needs were for talking head green screen stuff, a task for which it will perform just fine. Because of that and my lack of experience in shooting of any kind (I rarely even take cell phone pix!), I never thought beyond the moment to a time when I might want to do more.
While the ultra precision software developer / geek in me twitches at the thought of something so casual as a human aligning a waveform by eye (gasp!), I suspect that with a clapper board and all the high end audio tools I have there shouldn't be much problem aligning external mics. However, since the camera has two XLR inputs for the l/r mics, I won't really have to worry about that until I start recording a third simultaneous audio track.
So, admittedly, much of this conversation is forward looking. But hey, I'm a geek. I like learning, especially from those who have more road behind them than I.
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20. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
shooternz Sep 30, 2010 1:20 PM (in response to Christopher Duncan)Test :
Place a clip from your camera in the source monitor. Does it show TC in this format 01:23:15:27 (Hrs:mins:secs:frames)
You may not be able to set it but it may take its time from the Clock and add frames to it. This is how your Zoom works as well.
That would mean both are running a basic Free Run Timecode on the clips. (Free Run TC is basically the realtime of the day)
The idea is you set both as close to the same as you can. (within 10 seconds is good but closer the better and you should be able to get them to maybe 3 secs difference) The difference is the offset and you establish it from a couple of test clips and a sight match using clapper board in a timeline.
Once you know the offset is say 1 sec and 3 frames...you can easily find the synch point on any audio clip and any video clip.
ie. you know the video was shot at 08:32:21:05. The audio was recorded same time plus or minus the off set.
CS5 can now read the TC in audio clips.
BTW - I would be very surprised if the audio quality in the camera is not good enough for your purposes. The Pannys record very good quality audio.
Dont jump down the double system sound recoding route without checking this out.
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21. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christopher Duncan Oct 1, 2010 6:39 AM (in response to shooternz)The Panasonic does indeed display SMPTE on the monitor. If the Zoom records in broadcast wave then that audio will be timestamped as you mentioned, so this could be a nice trick. Thanks, man.
And yeah, I've been happy with the audio on the camera since I use good quality audio mics with it. I won't really need to go down the rabbit hole until I hit a need for a third mic, so sync issues may not be a battle I need to fight until I get into multi cam shots, at which point I may reevaluate my camera setup.
The HMC70P is AVCHD 1080/60i and was around $1800. Are there HD cameras for around the same price out there with XLR inputs for pro audio that also have external sync options?
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22. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christian Jolly Oct 1, 2010 6:49 AM (in response to Christopher Duncan)The HMC70P is AVCHD 1080/60i and was around $1800. Are there HD cameras for around the same price out there with XLR inputs for pro audio that also have external sync options?
The AG-HMC40...it has SMTPE timecode and free run
The XLR inputs are an add-on. It's about $2,150 for both the camera and the XLR adapter.
It's a bit better image quality than the AG-HMC70.
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23. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christopher Duncan Oct 1, 2010 8:20 AM (in response to Christian Jolly)That's not a bad price difference to get timecode added, particularly since it adds the ability to shoot SD as well which I've discovered would have been handy at times.
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24. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christian Jolly Oct 1, 2010 8:36 AM (in response to Christopher Duncan)BTW - the updated HMC70 (the AG-HMC80) adds quite a few extra features, one of which is timecode. Don't know if that includes a free run option, preset, or anything else.
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25. Re: Wondering if I need additional mics for shooting
Christopher Duncan Oct 1, 2010 8:46 AM (in response to Christian Jolly)I'm sure it at least comes with a new price.




