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40. Re: Export Colour Shift
Koray Birand Dec 19, 2010 4:54 PM (in response to Todd_Kopriva)sRGB: yes workspace is srgb, and output as well... the screen shot for the file info is the rendered outputs file info..
Karl Soule send this message to me : Found this Apple KB: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3712
which explains how to assign profile to a quicktime file with apple's automator..
Since I have suspected that the file info does not display any profile info I wanted to do it with the help of apple's automator...
Todd I am sorry if I am explaining everything in a complex way but I have read so much about the problems I am facing and I see that
there are a lot of people having the same problems.. And all these posts end up being not solved...
I am not a beginner and have been using AE since 3.0 and with 10.6 and CS5 I feel I have no control of my projects and now I am at a stage where
I have no trust to any of the players nor AE itself..
Koray
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41. Re: Export Colour Shift
Koray Birand Dec 19, 2010 5:28 PM (in response to esteban_zissou)Todd,
I want to get everything as simple as possible so I have created a really simple project.
I have created a 1280 x 720 px tiff file with photoshop which has a sRgb color profile embeded.
then
I have created a ae project with srg workspace and imported the tif file. added couple of adjustment layers similiar color correction
techniques that I use mainly.
added the composition to render que and rendered them as quicktime animation 100% quality and h264 15mbs. one mov and one mp4.
opened them with quicktime 7 and quicktime 10, compared them with my ae preview window as seen below. All the rendered outputs are identical but
not with ae preview..
You can download the sample project file and the outputs from :
http://www.koraybirand.com/download/test_files.zip
the zip file is 40kb
let me know of your thoughts,
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42. Re: Export Colour Shift
Todd_Kopriva Dec 19, 2010 5:32 PM (in response to Koray Birand)> Todd I am sorry if I am explaining everything in a complex way...
The problem is not you "explaining everything in a complex way". Rather, it seems that a) you're overcomplicating things, and b) you're confusing a few things.
> but I have read so much about the problems I am facing and I see that
there are a lot of people having the same problems.. And all these posts end up being not solved...
The only problems that I'm aware of all have to do with inconsistent gamma treatment within QuickTime. The recommended solution is to leave QuickTime out of the process entirely and use color management. All of the unresolved problems that I've seen have to do with people refusing to use color managment and continuing to struggle with the quirks of QuickTime. Not only are you using QuickTime, but you also seem to have thrown yet another element into the mix, which is a piece of software that assigns color profiles to these QuickTime movies such that it's even harder for someone to try to figure out what's going on.
As nineteknohardcore and tordenver have said, they've managed to get consistent color by using color management and by being wary of the quirks of QuickTime.
Keep in mind that color manangement is not like the creative features of After Effects---you don't fuss with the various settings until you get something that looks the way that you like. It's far more of an engineering process. You interpret your footage using the single color profile that you _know_ it was shot with; you calibrate your monitor; you output using the color profile that you _know_ your viewing device uses.
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43. Re: Export Colour Shift
Todd_Kopriva Dec 19, 2010 5:31 PM (in response to Todd_Kopriva)> let me know of your thoughts,
It's Sunday night here, and I need to do something other than work.
I'll look at this tomorrow.
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44. Re: Export Colour Shift
Koray Birand Dec 19, 2010 6:30 PM (in response to Todd_Kopriva)Thanks for sparing your time....
I need to update my previous post because made a mistake...
Please read this one...
Todd,
I want to get everything as simple as possible so I have created a really simple project.
I have created a 1280 x 720 px tiff file with photoshop which has a sRgb color profile embeded.
then
I have created an ae project with sRgb workspace and imported the tif file. added couple of adjustment layers, similiar color correction
techniques that I use mainly.
Added the composition to render que and rendered them as quicktime animation 100% quality and h264 15mbs. one mov and one mp4.
opened them with quicktime 7, quicktime 10 and vlc, compared them with my ae preview window and with vimeo as seen below.
All the rendered outputs do not match with ae preview window..
You can download the sample project file and the outputs from :
http://www.koraybirand.com/download/test_files.zip
vimeo test can be accessed from :
the zip file is 40kb
first image is comparison with ae (quicktime 7 and quicktime 10)
second image is comparison with vimeo (quicktime 7 and quicktime 10)
third image is comparison with ae (vlc)
let me know of your thoughts,
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45. Re: Export Colour Shift
esteban_zissou Dec 20, 2010 1:31 AM (in response to Koray Birand)First of all thank's for hijacking my thread Koray, although your discussion is relevant I can honestly say it has just confused me further.
Todd, thanks for your responses.
If the general rule of thumb is to ignore QuickTime for checking footage and stick to a colour managed workflow what should I do about Final Cut Pro? as this apparently doesn't support sRGB and uses the Rec. 709 profile.
My workflow is as follows:
5D MKII -> ProRes -> FCP -> AE -> FCP -> Vimeo
How would you tackle that workflow in terms of colour management and file formats?
Also, if Quicktime is a no go, what player would be best to check our files?
Thanks again
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46. Re: Export Colour Shift
Koray Birand Dec 20, 2010 7:13 AM (in response to esteban_zissou)Hi Todd,
I have made some interesting tests
Please take your time to invastigate because I have spent
hours for this.
You will see rgb values of each color they were measured with color picker.
Quicktime 7.X was used as a media player
The test may seem complicated since there are a lot of outputs to compare with
each other therefore you can get the original test files from:
http://www.koraybirand.com/download/test_files_2.zip
the test image in higher resolution from
http://www.koraybirand.com/download/cm.jpg
vimeo test can be accessed from
(do not forget to hit play to see the video otherwise you see the sRgb thumbnail)
You will see four screen shots
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A . Mac Os X 10.6.5 with CS5 - Workspace is sRgb
A1. Animation codec rendered on 10.6.5 with AE CS5 with sRGB output
A2. Animation codec rendered on 10.5.6 with AE CS4 with sRGB output
A3. Ae Cs5 on 10.6.5 preview window with sRgb colorspace
A4. H264 codec rendered on 10.5.6 with AE CS4 with sRGB output
A5. A4 file uploaded to vimeo
A . CONCLUSION. 1-3 MATCH and 2-4 MATCH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B . Mac Os X 10.6.5 with CS5 - No Color Management
B1. Animation codec rendered on 10.6.5 with AE CS5 with sRGB output
B2. Animation codec rendered on 10.5.6 with AE CS4 with sRGB output
B3. Ae Cs5 on 10.6.5 preview window with no colorspace
B4. H264 codec rendered on 10.5.6 with AE CS4 with sRGB output
B5. B4 file uploaded to vimeo
B . CONCLUSION. 1-3 MATCH and 2-4 MATCH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C . Mac Os X 10.5.6 with CS4 - Workspace is sRgb
C1. Animation codec rendered on 10.6.5 with AE CS5 with sRGB output
C2. Animation codec rendered on 10.5.6 with AE CS4 with sRGB output
C3. Ae Cs5 on 10.6.5 preview window with no colorspace
C4. H264 codec rendered on 10.5.6 with AE CS4 with sRGB output
C5. C4 file uploaded to vimeo
C . CONCLUSION. ONLY OUTPUTS COLORS MATCH WITH EACH OTHER - AE SHOWS DESATURETED
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D . Mac Os X 10.5.6 with CS4 - No Color Management
D1. Animation codec rendered on 10.6.5 with AE CS5 with sRGB output
D2. Animation codec rendered on 10.5.6 with AE CS4 with sRGB output
D3. Ae Cs5 on 10.6.5 preview window with no colorspace
D4. H264 codec rendered on 10.5.6 with AE CS4 with sRGB output
D5. D4 file uploaded to vimeo
D . CONCLUSION. EVERYTHING MATCHES EACH OTHER !!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1- What made me even more curious is on 10.5.6 with AE CS4 when colorspace is selected
as sRGB the review window do not match with the outputs. And even if the outputs
are set to be sRGB when I select none as a workspace the files match with the preview
window. Is it better to work with no color space on 10.5.6 with CS4 ?
2- So I started to suspect that my files do not have embedded profiles even if I select
them to be sRgb in both operating systems. Is that possible if yes how ?
3- For Ipad and I believe there are more gadgets coming out now similiar to Ipad, H264
is the industry standardand nowadays everything is becoming web based and sites like vimeo,
dailymotiion, youtube and etc are becoming important so internet based workflow is
becoming very important as well therefore again h264 . So a lot of people want to see their
videos as they see in after effects, what is your suggestion as Adobe ?
4- You suggest us to leave quicktime player and encoding, but that is almost impossible since
it is a standardfor many people out there and to communicate with clients we need a standard
that everybody has. If you say VLC that is an other case and an other study since it has
a lot of color issues as well. What is your suggestion as Adobe for a default standard player
that everybody already has or as Adobe are you planing such a player ?
Thank you for your time
Koray Birand
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47. Re: Export Colour Shift
esteban_zissou Dec 22, 2010 7:30 AM (in response to Koray Birand)Koray, just wondered what you have shot this footage on and what format/profile it has come out of your camera as?
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48. Re: Export Colour Shift
Koray Birand Dec 22, 2010 7:42 AM (in response to esteban_zissou)Hi Estaban,
Let my try to explain my workflow breifly
1. Canon 5DMII and Canon 7D
2. Mpeg Streamclip for converting h264 mov files to Prores 422(lt)
3. Premiere CS5 to edit
4. After Effects CS5 and import premiere timeline as Dynamic Link
5. Output (h264 or animation)
The file actually has nothing to do with my situation since the outputs from AE do not match the AE preview window..
Koray Birand
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49. Re: Export Colour Shift
Ian9114 Dec 22, 2010 8:34 AM (in response to esteban_zissou)So now I am even more confused. I exported out of AE and then came back into FCP to add some audio and transitions. I graded this again (as it suffered from the gamma shift) then exported as a .mov. I opened it up in quicktime and it looked fine, the same as it does in FCP. Great.. but then, I came to my windows pc and opened it up in Quicktime and its really bright, I tried it on another windows machine and its the same.
Now obviously I can compensate in the grading, but then that would make it even darker on my mac.. argh!
What would you do here?
Sorry to jump out of the current line of thought, but this caught my attention and it seems no one has addressed it correctly.
The problem you are having on Windows is likely a Quicktime problem, and not an issue with your video.
In Quicktime, try going to Edit > Preferences > Quicktime Preferences and disabling DirectX:
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50. Re: Export Colour Shift
Koray Birand Dec 22, 2010 8:49 AM (in response to Ian9114)Ian if you read my posts carefully you will see that every test is on Mac. Either on Leopard or Snow Leopard.
But thanks anayway
Koray
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51. Re: Export Colour Shift
Koray Birand Dec 22, 2010 8:50 AM (in response to Koray Birand)Someone from Adobe is going to comment on my detailed test ????
I have spent days and at least I believe that I have collected some
important data ...
Koray Birand
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52. Re: Export Colour Shift
Todd_Kopriva Dec 22, 2010 9:00 AM (in response to Koray Birand)> Someone from Adobe is going to comment on my detailed test ????
Yes. This is a long thread. Responding to all of the points and claims made in it is not a short and easy thing to do, and it's not the only thing that we have to do.
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53. Re: Export Colour Shift
Ian9114 Dec 22, 2010 9:00 AM (in response to Koray Birand)Koray,
I was specifically addressing Esteban's question about the QT gamma shift he saw in Windows.
That's why I quoted his question - it had not been answered yet.
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54. Re: Export Colour Shift
esteban_zissou Dec 22, 2010 9:01 AM (in response to Koray Birand)Koray, this is the same problem I have. But I think it's quicktime that simply doesnt display video correctly.. any video at all.
Just out of curiosity what lens, focal length, aperture and lighting were you using for this particular video that you have on vimeo?
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55. Re: Export Colour Shift
esteban_zissou Dec 22, 2010 9:03 AM (in response to Ian9114)Ill give that a try in windows Ian but it also does the same thing on my mac. Quicktime is useless.
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56. Re: Export Colour Shift
esteban_zissou Dec 22, 2010 9:12 AM (in response to Todd_Kopriva)Hi Todd, we appreciate you are busy but there are a lot of people with this same issue. Obviously you cant go through all the comments but would it be possible to tell us which viewer Adobe recommend for playing back footage once it is exported from your applications, one that matches colour/brightness etc?
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57. Re: Export Colour Shift
Koray Birand Dec 22, 2010 9:23 AM (in response to esteban_zissou)Todd,
I know that this is not your only job and I know that this is mostly Apple's fault but since there are a lot of professional users out there having this problem we want an official answer from Adobe since we spent thousands of dollars investing on Adobe products. We just want adobe to take care of us rather then getting an attitude like why the hell are we asking these questions.
Koray Birand
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59. Re: Export Colour Shift
Koray Birand Dec 22, 2010 9:27 AM (in response to esteban_zissou)Esteban,
I do not know which video you are talking about since there are a lot of them but I use 5DM2 and 7D with 50mm 1.2 , 35mm 1.4 and 24mm 1.4 most of the time ... For aperature 1.2 to 2.0, shutter 30 to 60
Hope helps..
Koray
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60. Re: Export Colour Shift
Todd_Kopriva Dec 22, 2010 9:38 AM (in response to Koray Birand)> We just want adobe to take care of us rather then getting an attitude like why the hell are we asking these questions.
No one is "getting an attitude" like that. The folks who can answer these questions just have a lot of other work to do, too, so you can't expect the answer to come immediately. Disentangling and explaining QuickTime color issues is not a matter of typing a couple of sentences during a coffee break. Be patient.
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61. Re: Export Colour Shift
Ian9114 Dec 22, 2010 9:50 AM (in response to Todd_Kopriva)Thanks, Todd. I know we will all appreciate some help with QuickTime color issues whenever it comes.
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62. Re: Export Colour Shift
Dan Ramirez Dec 22, 2010 9:55 AM (in response to Todd_Kopriva)Hi, this is Dan Ramirez from the After Effects team. Todd K. brought this to my attention and I'll be looking into this issue today. I spent a little bit of time on it last Fri., but ended up with some inconsistent results so I was hesitant to post my proposed solutions.
We do apreciate your concerns, but this thread is out of control. We've touched on color management, QT player 7 and QT player X having gamma/color issues on the Mac, QT player having gamma/color issues on Windows, YUV>RGB conversion, AJA or other 3rd party conflicts, ProRes vs. other QT codecs, and rountripping issues between AE and FCP. It's impossible to address all of these at once. Almost all of them involve the huge stone wall in Cupertino. egads.
If you want to improve the chances of getting good advice, please try and keep a thread as focused and detailed as possible. If you have a similar, but not the EXACT same issue as something that's posted in a thread, I recommend starting a new thread and including a link to the similar thread. Threads like this take a disproportionate time to provide the support you're looking for. I'll likely be breaking out some of these issues into new threads. I will provide the link within this one.
Thanks,
Dan Ramirez
After Effects
QA Engineer
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63. Re: Export Colour Shift
Dan Ramirez Dec 22, 2010 1:31 PM (in response to Dan Ramirez)Indeed, there are gamma/color issues in QuickTime Player 7 and 10. I've filed an Apple Radar bug because I believe it's solely their issue. I've been told they're looking into it. If a fix is coming from their end, it will be for QT Player 10. They are done supporting QT player 7.
I specifically tested QT-Animation, QT-ProRes4444, and Adobe's H264 exporter. We've found many issues with QT-H264 and we do not recommend you use it. Some people have chosen to use the open source X264. I encountered errors trying to use this codec, YMMV.
I attached a sample AE project that is good for testing these types of things. With the info panel visible and set to "decimal", move your mouse over the comp window. The graphics were generated using shape layers and the info panel will show you the colors at the source. I've been taking screengrabs of QuickTime Player 10 and bringing it back into AE. Using the info panel, I can "sample" the screengrab and determine if the media player is displaying the footage correctly.
Here are my results:
QT-Animation in 640x480, NTSC-DV, and HD-720p sizes = gamma shift in QT Player 10
Adobe H264 in 640x480 and NTSC-DV = Good color/gamma in QT player 10 and in Adobe Media Player
Adobe H264 in 720p = gamma shift in QT Player 10, good color/gamma in Adobe Media Player
QT-ProRes4444 = good color/gamma in QT Player 10
In summary, H264 appears to display properly in SD and smaller sizes in QT-player, but there's a gamma/color shift in QT-player when the footage is HD-sized. Adobe Media Player displayed the footage properly, so I would recommend using this player for H264 footage in HD, if not all frame sizes.
ProRes4444 displayed properly in QT-Player 10. If size isn't an issue, feel free to use this codec with QT-Player 10
QT-Animation had a gamma/color shift in all frame sizes in QT Player 10
---
Finally, less than a week ago, on a different computer, I was able to get QT-Player 10 to display QT-Animation and H264 properly as long as my AE project was color managed, set to Rec709, and the output profile for all exported footage was Adobe 1998. I was *not* able to replicate this behavior today. This machine has AJA codecs and FCP installed and it's possible that's affecting things.
I'm going to move on to other things today. I've got 3.5 hours to complete another day's work. Most Adobe employees are off until the new year, so Happy Holidays!
Cheers,
Dan Ramirez
AE QA
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GammaTestingnoCM.aep.zip 51.3 K
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64. Re: Export Colour Shift
Koray Birand Jan 3, 2011 4:45 AM (in response to Dan Ramirez)Hi Dan...
First of all Happy New Year....
I have read your comments and gone through all your test results (Snow Leopard 10.6.5) ... But I believe that it is not because of h264 please check out my tests...
1- What I did is compared my mp4-H.264 result with my ae preview window first..
2- Quicktime 7 and vlc have exact match...
3- Quciktime X has a color and a gamma shift ...
4- I uploaded the same file to vimeo to carry on my result and then I saw that the file on vimeo - safari 5.0.3 matches my quicktime x colors... exact match...
5- Then I opened the same vimeo page on firefox 3.5 ... and firefox 3.5 , ae preview, vlc and quicktime 7 had an exact match ...
Then I turned on color management with simulate output (internet standard - sRGB) and
1- The ae preview matched with quictime x and safari - vimeo - exact match
2- The ae preview, vlc and quictime 7 had a color and a gamma shift ..
To Conclude:
As I understood correctly quicktime x and safari uses colorsync to color manage the h264 file where as
firefox, vlc and quicktime bypass the colorsync.
Question:
Which workflow I should consider since there are a lot of users using safari, vlc firefox, quicktime X ???
Note:
I made the same test on 10.5.6 and safari-vimeo, quictime 7 and ae preview had an exact match ...










