15 Replies Latest reply: Feb 21, 2011 6:07 AM by able123 RSS

    Hiding brands in videos (repost?)

    Christopher Duncan Community Member

      [Posted this moments ago, came back to the forums, and it wasn't here. Very strange. So I'll try again.]

       

      We're shooting part of our show in my studio control room. Since it's a show for geeks, it's nice that we have a console and rack gear that lights up like NCC 1701D. However, therein lies the problem.

       

      Speakers, mixers, rack gear, TV, you name it, everything has a brand / logo on it. If I covered the logos with tape, I'd probably burn an entire roll of tape. Not to mention how clumsy it would look.

       

      It would be great if I could get them all to pay for placement. However, I'll settle for just not getting sued.

       

      How on earth do you guys deal with such a situation?

        • 1. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
          Community Member

          if you are selling the product ( video , film etc ) and using copyrighted names in the sale (   eg.... " MOPAR FOREVER" - as a documentary about racing street cars etc and selling that tape through mail order etc ) then you MIGHT get a cease and desist order from the mopar lawyers.  They dont sue right off the bat, they send a notice to cease and desist.. stop what you're doing re: selling your product with thier brand name on it.  Then you have to stop advertising to sell your documentary in those magazines. End of story.

          However, you can still sell your product through other means and when you get a cease and desist order for THAT you have to stop doing THAT.

           

          You are not selling your video as a product , but as a means to sell a service etc that has nothing to do wtih the copyrighted brand names on equipment and so on in your shots.  You are not trying to sell anything that infringes their copyright.

           

          So dont worry about it....they have so many more important real issues to deal with ( actual theft of their copyright and counterfiet products with their labels etc ) that you are worrying about stuff that wont become an issue.

          • 2. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
            Christopher Duncan Community Member

            I know that a small fry show like mine isn't likely to fall in the crosshairs of big corporate lawyers, but I'm trying to do things the right way. Not just to avoid hassles, but because it's the right thing to do.

             

            Besides, how would it look on my reel? "Hey, this guy doesn't know the first thing about doing this stuff..." And of course, I don't, but why advertise it?

            • 3. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
              Community Member

              Chris,

              I'm no expert about this so hopefully someone else will chime in on stuff.

               

              First of all you need to tell us about YOUR product.  What is it, how will it be distributed now and in the future ( figuring out what might happen in future might be hard...but best case scenario is what ??  eg. sell tapes as groups of "shows"..."seasons" to general public as entertainment, sell to businesses for "in house" training ? etc

               

              The basic fact of whether you plan to sell the product or not is a big one....and how its distributed.

               

              If we go out into the street on locations to shoot scenes for a movie or tv show or tv commercial - we DONT worry about brands... unless its featured in the shot as a "prop"... like someone featured in shot ( does not apply to background ) drinks a beer.  THAT prop might need to be custom labeled so its not infringing on copyright. If you call that company PR you MIGHT get them to send a few cases of that product to you for your production to use as props with their blessings. Or they can tell you "no" dont use it.

               

              Think about everything you've ever watched and how this is handled in general...  if its a product like a movie that is being sold and distributed widely...the "props" are a matter for consideration...  but the rest of the scene "dressing" ( set dressing ) and the real world in the scene is NOT a matter for concern.  Only "featured" things....in commercial products YOU are making for sale and / or widespread distrubution....

               

              suggestion:  if there is a product made near you that people drink for refreshment ( soda, spirits , beer ) pick that product...otherwise just pick a very popular one ( bud, coors, coca cola etc )...  the one closest to you may be "faster" to deal with re: communicating with them etc but no big deal either way  ---

               

              make believe you're gonna have a scene where the main character drinks or uses this product you chose and it is featured as a prop...

               

              contact the manufacturer and describe what you are doing ( including that page of script describing the action ) and ask for their permission to use the product.

               

              Go from there... follow the process....

              You will learn everything you ever wanted to know about the whole process and what it applies to ( situations the copyright applies to ).  If you want to go further - and know about using music as well as "props" , contact ascap and ask about how to get permission to use some copyrighted music for "synchronization" in your product....  ( follow whole process, contacting publisher and copyright owner )

              Ascap does only live stuff ( like musicals, broadway shows, etc ) so synchronizing will lead you to OTHER organizations that have lists of the copyright owners and publishers..

               

              dont be suprised if, nobody gets back to you... which is why I suggest you use a local product for prop.... that way you can follow through easier...maybe visit them etc...

               

              once you get into this with ONE prop and ONE song you'll know everything there is to know...

               

              there's so many variables and its such a wishy washy subject re: applications the best way is to do it yourself once and then you will know and have copies of all the legal mumbo jumbo etc etc

               

              Good luck

               

               

              ps.. dont confuse doing " what is right "  with deliberately putting obstacles in your own way when the copyright stuff doesnt apply to your product ...if you know what I mean

              • 4. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                davidbeisner2010 Community Member

                I am also not an expert, but I have done a good bit of research into US copyright law and I've kind of been responsible for formulating many of the requirements and practices in use at the college where I work to protect us from copyright infringement lawsuits (oh, you wouldn't believe some of the things that students will do!)

                 

                That said, I do believe that robodog is pretty much right on here. If you're using something specifically as a prop then you need to either a) pay for use, b) get them to pay for product placement or c) create your own fake label. Things which simply appear in the "real world" in which you're shooting can't get targeted for copyright or trademark infringement. 90% of the law in this stuff also has to do with intended use... if you're shooting a film about cameras, for example, and really pushing the Panasonic brand... only the cameras you're filming as "panasonics" are canons, then it's quite possible that canon would flip out about you putting their product on screen and leading the viewer to believe it was panasonic... (on the other hand, panasonic may get pissed that you're trying to pass off a canon as a panny!!)

                 

                Doing a piece highlighting what you do to attract business, and having all that equipment in the background, isn't going to be a problem... nobody's going to come after you, and if they tried, I'm pretty sure you could beat them in court on it.

                • 5. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                  Community Member

                  me and David are in cahoots with this and of like mind....until the end

                   

                  -----------

                  Doing a piece highlighting what you do to attract business, and having  all that equipment in the background, isn't going to be a problem...  nobody's going to come after you, and if they tried, I'm pretty sure you  could beat them in court on it.

                  --------

                  this is the part that you have to worry about if you worry about anything at all.  For example, you decide that you're going to use a prop and its a can of bud....and your main character is drinking it and acting in the scene with the can of bud......and you decide that although its a prop and of no consequence to the scene.. just a can of beer.....THATS what you should be worried about.

                   

                  because....if a lawyer from bud says, cease and desist....you have to reshoot that ( those ) scenes...or rotoscope the label out....

                   

                  if you decide not to pay attention to the cease and desist thing, believe me, they have the money and time so on to bleed you to death with legal fees..   the power of the law is many times a matter of attrition....whether you can weather the demands on YOU to show up in court and pay for that , opposed to the ability for the plaintiff to keep making motions and showing up in court to bother you.....

                   

                  its a real problem and best left alone...

                  for example, a friend of mine ( I even have a credit for some photography ! wow ! ) -- did a documentary on mopar. spent tons of money on it, hired shooters, went to lots of racetracks, did interviews of people entering their cars etc.... it was very exciting and cool !

                   

                  basically, it was a doc about street cars that were manufactured to be fast and mean and a lot of people in the 70's etc got into these "fast" cars.. ( baracuda, all those cars ...remember them ? )

                   

                  The product was a simple documentary... which was well shot and pretty well done technically ( flat bed editing of film by his girl friend and him, and all his own money invested ).  A very cool product .

                   

                  It said, in a word, " mopar is cool , remember this ? "

                   

                  he got a cease and desist order ....as he was selling the VHS tape in car magazines....  He got a cease and desist order from the very people he was "celebrating" in his product....his documentary.

                  He was, to say the least, very upset and suprised because it seemed to him that the brand name was biting off its own nose to keep him from saying how great they were.

                   

                  none of this MATTERS in the world of copyrights etc.... it doesnt HAVE to make sense etc.

                   

                  If he wanted to and had a zillion dollars, he could have fought this cease and desist order MAYBE to continue selling a VHS tape for $7.00 per tape ( which wasn't selling by the millions at that point ).  OR HE could look at the expense of going to court and lawyers and his bank account and say, " OK, thats the end of THIS advertising campaign ! "

                   

                  Next step.... go to cuba, advertise there and sell the tapes.  Go to South America.... sell the tapes.....get my drift ?

                  • 6. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                    davidbeisner2010 Community Member

                    Ok, I may have not been clear... if something is used as a prop, like your bud can, then yes, you do have to worry about it. If things are just located "in the background" as your camera passes over, then not so much. It all depends on the use and intended purpose of your shooting.

                     

                    Robodog, I'm actually a little surprised your friend got the "cease and desist" order... US copyright law is VERY clear that documentary type productions (if truly documentaries) are exempt from paying use fees for products in them.

                    • 7. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                      Chuck A. McIntyre Community Member

                      I think, for the most part, companies are pleased to see their brand in videos or the backgrounds of print ads.  It's like free advertising.

                       

                      Out in public, I've noticed more of a trend related to people not wanting to be in video.  A few years back, I took my small camera to a local art show.  It was an outdoor event with booths set up near city hall on a closed off street.  Most people didn't seem to mind having their art videotaped.  At one point during the show, I was walking down a path between exhibit booths while panning across random art as I walked.  A lady in her 30's came out of one of the booths waving her arms frantically telling me, You can't film my artwork.  I asked her why and she replied I don't want people stealing my designs and ideas.  At this point, she kind of pissed me off, so I replied, "Who would want to steal your ideas".  I felt kind of bad after I said that, but the reality is, nearly every artist has a website with large clear images of their work.  If someone really wanted to get ideas for their own artwork, it would be a lot easier to just look at a lot of different artist's websites.

                      I think many people are just a bit paranoid about being captured on video.

                      • 8. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                        Community Member

                        Dave,

                        -----------

                        Robodog, I'm actually a little surprised your friend got the "cease and  desist" order... US copyright law is VERY clear that documentary type  productions (if truly documentaries) are exempt from paying use fees for  products in them.

                        ------------

                        you were clear about what you wrote...it was my response that was unclear.. I meant to just point out the "legal" cost of $$ and time to "fight" an unfair cease and desist thing.

                        The name of the doc my friend did, was called "MOPAR....something or other " and it was the use of that NAME they objected to ... and in order to fight it would have cost money to hire a lawyer and all that...  which, considering the return he was getting at the time from magazine ads to sell the thing...wouldn't have been wise....cause he was still trying to break even with the cost of making the documentary.  And in the end I don't think he could have banked on ABSOLUTELY winning....

                        But yes, it was a HUGE suprise that they sent that to him.. and must have been heartbreaking as well.

                         

                        -----------chuck--

                        yeah, getting "releases" from people shot on film is probably a lot more of an issue than copyright of brands etc....( except featured props etc )

                        even xtras hired need to fill out releases...

                        anyone "talking" on camera....get release ...like in a documentary

                         

                        again, some of this depends on the use of the product being filmed and how distributed etc

                         

                        IMO a lot of this is going to change and get more "relaxed"....due to mobile device videos and internet use and just the plain fact that those who used to be able to "enforce" some draconian copyright laws wont be able to access the distribution stream in this international internet based deluge of products ( videos )...

                        Here's a factoid....   in Still photography the image of the Chrysler building is copyrighted by the owners of the building.  In other words, these guys have managed to copyright the IMAGE of the chrysler building.  So ANYONE taking a picture of the chrysler building , and if that appears in an AD ( print ad etc )...you are infringing on the copyright...unless you get that cleared with them first etc ( and pay for it ).

                        No offense, but copyrighting the image of a building is to me a very stupid idea.....boggles my mind.

                         

                        but thats beside the point..

                        • 9. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                          Chuck A. McIntyre Community Member

                          Rod Wrote:

                          "Here's a factoid....   in Still photography the image of the Chrysler  building is copyrighted by the owners of the building.  In other words,  these guys have managed to copyright the IMAGE of the chrysler  building.  So ANYONE taking a picture of the chrysler building , and if  that appears in an AD ( print ad etc )...you are infringing on the  copyright...unless you get that cleared with them first etc ( and pay  for it ).

                          No offense, but copyrighting the image of a building is to me a very stupid idea.....boggles my mind."

                           

                          I hadn't really considered buying a Chrysler product.  Now after hearing that, I can guarantee you I will never buy anything from Chrysler.

                           

                          That makes me wonder to what level of absurdity this kind of thing could be taken. Imagine a future time where an actor copyrights his facial features.  People who look like the actor begin getting cease and desist letters.  Their choices are face fines (no pun intended), pay royalties or have plastic surgery.

                          • 10. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                            Christopher Duncan Community Member

                            Lots of good stuff here, thanks for all you seasoned veterans taking the time to share what you've learned with me.

                             

                            To clarify, my logo issues will be background although I'm not sure where the line is on "featured props." For instance, our characters are sitting in the office working on their laptops. If you see the ubiquitous laptop logo on the lid, is this considered a featured prop because the character is using it? Overall, these are battles I'd really rather not fight since I'm not making any money with this.

                             

                            Per Rod's comment, here's a little about the show.

                             

                            This project is a weekly web series sitcom for the computer / software / geek crowd. The success of The Guild, at least in terms of the audience it built (now 100 million views over 4 season) is what inspired me to give it a try. Even with the significant audience they've built, they acknowledge that it's extremely difficult to make money with web video. Stargate alumni discovered the same thing with Sanctuary and ended up going back to networks for distribution.

                             

                            Because of this, I made it clear to everyone I brought on that our show (titled "Bad Programmer!") would never make a dime. We'll be distributing via YouTube, Vimeo, and of course are building our own dedicated site, etc. I know you can run ads on these video platforms, but they're very intrusive and annoying, even more so than network TV (relative to the context of the web experience). Especially in the beginning, I don't want to alienate viewers and give them a reason to click elsewhere. Thus, my initial definition of success is simply building a large and loyal audience for the pure joy of doing so.

                             

                            That said, I'm a red blooded American capitalist running dog, and would certainly be in favor of it somehow magically becoming profitable over time. For instance, if the audience was large enough, I'm open to selling it via DVD. That's all purely blue sky at the moment, but I naturally wouldn't want to do anything today that would limit my options in the future.

                             

                            I've run a number of small businesses over the years, and one of the things I learned the hard way is that contracts, as well as who's truly right and wrong, don't mean squat. It's all about my lawyer can beat up your lawyer, or more often, I can afford to pay my lawyer longer than you can pay yours. If I get a cease and desist, rightly or wrongly, I'm screwed. If it goes to court, I have neither the legal funds nor the desire to hassle with it for a fight. Best case scenario I have to reshoot and reproduce shows that have already been completed.

                             

                            With that in mind, especially with a show like mine that has zero projected income, the only winning move is not to play. Consequently, I care passionately about the path of least resistance on this stuff and thus "you probably won't have a problem" isn't a viable strategy. I'm not willing to gamble on "probably," no matter how remote the possibility of hassle.

                             

                            The advice of "pick a company and go through the process" is a practical approach and I may give that a try. It seems from the conversations here that there isn't an absolute yes or no to the question of whether or not you're opening yourself up to hassles if you don't hide logos, whether background or featured.

                             

                            You know, I'm an extremely vocal advocate of intellectual property rights and other related issues. I find it somewhat ironic and irritating that in a world where people routinely feel they can igore these rights and just take what they want, those of us who actually try to respect the property of others are the ones who have to deal with the hassle.

                            • 11. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                              Christopher Duncan Community Member

                              Of course, like the person who got snippy with Chuck for taking a picture of the artwork, many have wondered why companies would hassle you for what is in effect free advertising.

                               

                              One of the reasons is that when you're granted a trademark, that's not the end of the story. You have to continually defend that trademark when it's infringed upon, or you can in fact lose it. Like many legal areas, there's no black and white definition of how much is "enough" defense, that's typically argued in court. Probably to make sure that the lawyers continue to get paid.

                               

                              Nonetheless, you can't paint those who defend trademarks as the bad guys for doing so, even if the logic sounds silly. Much of the legal system sounds silly when you look at it from a common sense point of view.

                              • 12. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                                Christopher Duncan Community Member

                                "That makes me wonder to what level of absurdity this kind of thing could be taken. Imagine a future time where an actor copyrights his facial features.  People who look like the actor begin getting cease and desist letters.  Their choices are face fines (no pun intended), pay royalties or have plastic surgery."

                                 

                                And then someone copyrights bad acting. The lawyers will have a field day.

                                • 13. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                                  Community Member

                                  Chris,

                                  --------------------

                                  The advice of "pick a  company and go through the process" is a practical approach and I may  give that a try. It seems from the conversations here that there isn't  an absolute yes or no to the question of whether or not you're opening  yourself up to hassles if you don't hide logos, whether background or  featured.

                                   

                                  You know, I'm an extremely  vocal advocate of intellectual property rights and other related issues.  I find it somewhat ironic and irritating that in a world where people  routinely feel they can igore these rights and just take what they want,  those of us who actually try to respect the property of others are the  ones who have to deal with the hassle.

                                  -------------------

                                  Yes, I would definitely pick a product and get permission to use it...  it will give you all the info you need re: process and legaleeze involved with identifying potential copyright issues.

                                   

                                  Yes, dealing with it is pain in butt..  however, there's a simple rule of thumb for "general" consideration, already expressed here...

                                  a) if its a prop and featured in the shot, hide label, use own label or get permission....

                                  b) if its part of set dressing dont bother worrying about it.

                                   

                                  now here's the real problem at this point ---

                                  1 ) who would you believe , no matter what is SAID by ANYONE ?  Who do you trust to have a definitive answer that totally alleviates ANY potential problems ???  In other words, you would like an answer, but if 1000 people answer you, how do you KNOW for a fact that you now have the TRUTH ??

                                   

                                  2 ) would it be a real eyesore to simply get out the tape and hide as many logos and brandnames on your set as possible ??  If that's the easiest thing to do, why not just DO IT.  But only if that would really solve your problem so you aren't worried about it anymore.....  no sense doing it if you are still going to worry about someone saying, " hey , that's my product because the design of that product is copyrighted, whether you see my brand name or not "..   I mean, really....at what point do you believe your problem solved and feel OK with it ??

                                   

                                  Once you decide there is SOMEONE in the world who can give you an answer that is the TRUTH....ask that person.

                                   

                                  Now, on the other hand, if you think that a person who has 60 years experience producing and directing and shooting tv commercials and feature films etc might know something about this and you would believe that opinion etc ....I can help you contact someone like that.

                                  If you have an IATSE local in your area ( you do ) get in touch with a PROP person and ask your questions....

                                   

                                  But in the end its up to you to decide who you really will believe

                                   

                                  ps...one important thing to keep in mind...

                                  if you try to get in touch with someone to get permission...what if they dont respond ??  a very real possibility

                                  • 14. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                                    Community Member

                                    beer thirty ! ( burp, scuse me )

                                     

                                     

                                    say, Chris....as this seems to be the Perfect time to consider keeping you and your products safe etc...I have one suggestion

                                     

                                    INSURANCE

                                     

                                    commonly referred to as "production insurance", sometimes with "riders" to cover re-shoot costs etc...

                                     

                                    worth looking into as well as talking to your home owners ins people etc

                                     

                                    eg. fire extinguisher located on set ?  etc etc

                                     

                                     

                                    • 15. Re: Hiding brands in videos (repost?)
                                      Community Member

                                      When are Model Releases required?

                                      Generally anytime there are recognizable people in an image that is  being used for commercial purposes to promote a product, service, or  cause the photographer must have obtained a signed model release. If the  image is being used for purely editorial or instructional use a model  release may not be required. If you are in doubt ask a legal  professional about your specific use. Be sure if the image is not  released that your usage is legal or it may cost you far more than the  licensing fee.

                                       

                                      When  do I need a Property Release?

                                      As with model releases, generally anytime there is recognizable private  property, or trademarks appearing in an image it should have a release  if it is being used commercially to promote a product, service or a  cause.  If the image is being used for purely editorial or instructional  use a property release may not be required. Ask a legal professional  about your specific use to be sure.