1 2 Previous Next 58 Replies Latest reply: Mar 9, 2011 12:53 PM by jasperliu01 RSS

    sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare

    FuelMe Community Member

      Issue: I open sRGB-based images via Bridge to sort them out, then open them in ACR to make adjustments. After saving them, I preview them in Chrome, Firefox, and IE - and they look completely different in the browsers than what I'm seeing in ACR or Bridge. I understand that is because ACR and Bridge are color managed but some browsers are not.

      Same with Photoshop - I open the image, make adjustments, go to Save for Web, and things look completely different.

      In almost all cases, the images look yellowish and washed out in ACR and Photoshop, and overly red once I go to Save for Web.

       

      The point is that I can't make adjustments to images that already have a color profile because once I save them they look too different. It's basically a bunch of guess work at this point. How do you make sure you see the exact same colors while you make adjustments as you will have once you go Save for Web?

      I need things to look exactly the same way throughout the entire workflow, from import all the way to saving for the web.

       

      Here's where it gets confusing though: my monitor is the Dell 3011 which comes factory calibrated. It is set to sRGB.

      I should be seeing everything the way it's supposed to be.

      Also, for Bridge/Photoshop I tried every available Color Management option. I put the images on the web only, never print.

      Even using "Proof" is way off, for example if I select Monitor Color, images tend to look even more red than they will once they're Saved for Web.

       

      I cannot find a image workflow that works for me. How do you guys do it?

      Could it be my monitor's calibration is actually bad? (came fresh from Dell factory, not a refurb)?

       

      Thanks

        • 1. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
          Ed 45ACP Community Member

          Sorry didn't read your whole post but this question came up in another forum I go to.

          The simple answer was don't embed the profile in the image. The image will still be tagged with the color profile. Embedding the profile confuses some web browsers.

          • 2. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
            Community Member

            Ed 45ACP wrote:

             

            ...The simple answer was don't embed the profile in the image. The image will still be tagged with the color profile. Embedding the profile confuses some web browsers.

            That 'simple answer' is so simple, it does not make sense and is just wrong. You cannot have an image still tagged with the color profile if you do not embed the profile in the image. Embedding an ICC color profile is 'tagging' a color profile onto the image.

             

            The basic workflow is this: convert to sRGB and save for web. If it is a color-critical image*, include the ICC color profile while saving.

             

            Even with this basic workflow that does the best to suit most situations, there will be variances. Not all browsers support color management and not all users have sRGB displays. There is nothing more you can control.

             

            *color-critical images are your fancy-shmanzy images or product shots where you want to ensure color fidelity. (you don't want a customer to see a teal shirt when they are shopping for a green shirt.) Adding the ICC profile adds a few KB to the image so you might leave it out with images that are not color-critical, such as web page UI elements.

            • 3. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
              Community Member

              FuelMe wrote:

               

              ...Could it be my monitor's calibration is actually bad? (came fresh from Dell factory, not a refurb)?...

              A factory calibration is nonsense. Those that are serious about calibrating their display do it themselves under their own lighting conditions. Monitors change over time so calibration is done more than once.

              • 4. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                Noel Carboni Community Member

                Bear in mind that if your monitor emulates sRGB then you could choose to use the sRGB profile to describe it.  If you do this you can in many cases achieve more consistency between color-managed and non-color-managed applications, as those that assume your system is displaying sRGB will actually be making a correct assumption.  You will also see the same things in screen grabs as you see in Photoshop with sRGB documents.

                 

                To further what Marian said, it's likely the monitor installation process put a "factory" profile in place that's not good.  The operating system Color Management dialog is where you would change the profile that's associated with your monitor.

                 

                -Noel

                • 5. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                  Jeff Schewe Community Member

                  FuelMe wrote:

                   

                  Issue: I open sRGB-based images via Bridge to sort them out, then open them in ACR to make adjustments. After saving them, I preview them in Chrome, Firefox, and IE - and they look completely different in the browsers than what I'm seeing in ACR or Bridge.

                   

                  What are your workflow options set to in Camera Raw? After adjusting in ACR do you actually open the images into Photoshop? What is your Photoshop working space set to? You know that if you open a rendered image such as a TIFF or JPEG you do need to actually open it all the way through ACR and process the image file...JPEGs and TIFFs store the ACR settings in XMP metadata so the images will appear "processed' in ACR and the preview in Bridge but other applications can actually see the changes until the adjustments are processed.

                  • 6. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                    Ed 45ACP Community Member

                    Marian Driscoll wrote:

                     

                    Ed 45ACP wrote:

                     

                    ...The simple answer was don't embed the profile in the image. The image will still be tagged with the color profile. Embedding the profile confuses some web browsers.

                    That 'simple answer' is so simple, it does not make sense and is just wrong. You cannot have an image still tagged with the color profile if you do not embed the profile in the image. Embedding an ICC color profile is 'tagging' a color profile onto the image.

                     

                    The basic workflow is this: convert to sRGB and save for web. If it is a color-critical image*, include the ICC color profile while saving.

                     

                    Even with this basic workflow that does the best to suit most situations, there will be variances. Not all browsers support color management and not all users have sRGB displays. There is nothing more you can control.

                     

                    *color-critical images are your fancy-shmanzy images or product shots where you want to ensure color fidelity. (you don't want a customer to see a teal shirt when they are shopping for a green shirt.) Adding the ICC profile adds a few KB to the image so you might leave it out with images that are not color-critical, such as web page UI elements.

                    Well maybe you and I are talking about the same thing. To Embed something is to Include it. But to just TAG a image wih a color profile is to tell whatever program you are using to view it to use that color profile. At least that is the way I see and understand it.

                     

                    Now for the rest of you comment to me.

                    You and Noel should live together. You both have this greater then anyone else attitude that comes across as condescending. Not sure where either of you learned your people skills but maybe you should go back there and learn again, becuae they SUCK.

                    Have a nice day. And I do mean that.

                    • 7. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                      Community Member

                      No. We're certainly not talking about the same thing. And I'm wondering why you are being crusty. Lighten up. I was not insulting you. I was simply pointing out that your advice was a contradiction. You were the only one arguing with yourself.

                       

                      If information presented to you appears to be condescending, consider raising yourself up from the petty attacks that you feel you must make here.

                      • 8. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                        Noel Carboni Community Member

                        Ed, you should probably try to refrain from commenting about things you know little about, and your statements above imply you're underqualified to advise others on color management.  It's a subject about which there's much written that's actually wrong.

                         

                        This forum generally maintains a "matter of fact" attitude, and you will be told when you are wrong.  Most of us try to learn from that experience.

                         

                        -Noel

                        • 9. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                          emil emil Community Member

                          You have a wide gamut monitor. Dell gives you a monitor profile with the CD that comes with the monitor and you have to copy it to your computer yourself or if you have Windows set to update automatically, it may download and install it automatically. However this profile is not created for your particular unit and is completely useless. Dell doesn't say and their tech support doesn't know with which particular monitor settings this monitor profile was created, most likely it is not the sRGB mode that you choose. Furthermore, sRGB mode setting on a wide gamut monitor like those from Dell, doesn't mean that it will turn the monitor into a perfect sRGB color space display. The sRGB mode simply shifts the center of the wide gamut color space to fit its white point to the the white point and gamma specification of the sRGB color space to achieve best coverage, but this doesn't reduce the wide gamut's primaries to fit the sRGB gamut.

                          The different preset modes on your monitor are not intended for professional use with correct color creation - think of those modes as different hardware settings presets for choosing different pleasing appearances for a particular usage. The names of sRGB and Adobe RGB presets are completely misleading, more appropriate names would be something like "Traditional" and "Professional" which will go better along with the rest of the other presets there, Standard, Multimedia, Game, Warm, Cool.

                           

                          Long story short, you don't have a monitor profile that tells truthfully the color managed programs how your monitor displays colors. Without a correct monitor profile, you can easily make all your programs (color managed and non-color managed) display the colors the same by turning the color management off. But this will not display correctly (as intended) images that are not created referring to your monitor and you will not be able to ensure that others can eventually see images that you create referring to your monitor as intended.

                           

                          To create an accurate monitor profile you need a device like a colorimeter and calibration/profiling software.

                          If you can't afford that you can at least use this free calibration and profile creation software that will do much better than using the profile from Dell.

                          • 10. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                            Noel Carboni Community Member

                            Profiling and calibration can be a Good Thing, but just bear in mind that there's some give and take with it...

                             

                            For example, you gain confidence that from your color-managed software you're seeing accurate color.  But on the other hand, you're going to see more different color from non-color-managed applications that assume your system is showing everything in the sRGB color space (which is the Windows default philosophy).

                             

                            The key here is that color management is NOT system wide, and really cannot be.

                             

                            That said, virtually every web browser has embraced color management or is about to do so.  Internet Explorer 9 is just around the corner, and it has it.  The number of non-color-managed applications is diminishing.

                             

                            -Noel

                            • 11. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                              emil emil Community Member

                              Also have in mind that non-color managed programs cannot display the intended colors accurately unless your monitor perfectly matches the sRGB color space. The problem is less obvious with standard gamut monitors while wide gamut monitors make the difference between color managed and non-color managed programs much more obvious.

                               

                              edit: Oops, Noel already beat me to that explanation.

                              • 12. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                Noel Carboni Community Member

                                More different explanations are almost always good, Emil, because it's a difficult subject.

                                 

                                -Noel

                                • 13. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                  Community Member

                                  Noel Carboni wrote:

                                   

                                  Ed, you should probably try to refrain from commenting about things you know little about....

                                  That might be a bit strong. Everyone should feel welcome to post here. But with that should come an expectation that we can all be open to learning something new if we posted something that was in error or confusing. A correction is not a personal attack. If we thought so poorly of another, we'd let them stew in their own problems and not post replies. 

                                  • 14. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                    Noel Carboni Community Member

                                    Yeah, I apologize.  The guy just got on my nerves with that abusive comment.

                                     

                                    -Noel

                                    • 15. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                      FuelMe Community Member

                                      Jeff, I usually just open in ACR, make adjustments, then save the files in a new folder (call it "Corrected"). I then take those corrected files and weep.

                                       

                                      Now, if I do open those corrected files in Photoshop and then go Save for Web, the look changes so dramatically at that point as to be unusable. I simply cannot find a way to make them open up in Photoshop and look like they will once I do Save for Web.

                                       

                                      BTW, I really try to avoid opening up in Photoshop. I used to just do everything in ACR, then process the images (watermark, resize) using third party apps. That used to work well. But with this Dell monitor, this changed. See next post for clarification.

                                       

                                      Thanks

                                      • 16. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                        FuelMe Community Member

                                        First off, thanks to everyone for their contributions so far. I understand certain topics can cause a bit of a heated debate, and that's okay.

                                         

                                        I followed the advice on here and I believe that the monitor profile/calibration is not necessarily the problem. Even with profiles turned off, things look wonky.

                                        My OS (Win7 Pro) is using the included Dell profile (D65). If I need to change this profile I'm not sure to what, or where to get it.

                                         

                                        I had used several different monitors up until I got this fancy new 30 incher. With the other monitors things might not have looked 100% accurate - but at least everything was consistent across the board: I could open an image in Bridge, or ACR, or Photoshop and everything would look exactly as it would once I go "Save for Web" (or use a third party app to convert before publishing).

                                         

                                        So on one hand the monitor *might* be the issue, but I'm not certain now it's the factory calibration because even turning that off, or switching profiles, things are still way off.

                                         

                                        Should I strip all images of their embedded profiles and then make adjustments? Any other suggestions? I'm not clear on the OS color management. It is currently using the Dell D65 profile (thanks for pointing that out, Emil).

                                         

                                        Thank you!

                                        • 17. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                          Noel Carboni Community Member

                                          It sure sounds to me like it's your Dell monitor profile that's causing you grief.

                                           

                                          You really need to try to come to grips with what color management is really doing, or you'll have a lot of trouble getting past the "it all seems like magic" stage.  Keep in mind there are no "one size fits all" settings, and you need to understand how it all works to make the right choices.

                                           

                                          Just try this as a start:

                                           

                                          • Go into your OS Color Management dialog.
                                          • Add the sRGB profile for the monitor and make it the default.
                                          • You may need to reboot after this.

                                           

                                          What happens to your color consistency across applications?

                                           

                                          -Noel

                                          • 18. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                            FuelMe Community Member

                                            Noel, already did - the OS uses the profile "Dell U3011 Color Profile, D65" (U3011.icm" as default.

                                            Going to the Advanced tab I see:

                                            Device Profile: System Default (sRGB IEC61699-2.1)

                                            Viewing Conditions profile: System Default (WCS profile for sRGB viewing conditions)

                                             

                                            Is this not correct?

                                            Thanks

                                            • 19. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                              Noel Carboni Community Member

                                              It's using the Dell profile given what you've described.

                                               

                                              Under the Devices tab, hit Add... then add the sRGB profile and make it the default.

                                               

                                              -Noel

                                              • 20. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                emil emil Community Member

                                                Or, in the Control Panel > Color Management > Devices Tab uncheck "Use my settings for this device". Now images will be displayed in all your programs with the same colors but also make sure that the color settings in Bridge are set to Monitor Color which sets the color settings for the entire suite.

                                                 

                                                When "Use my settings for this device" is checked, the color managed programs use the information in the profile listed as default there to display color values on your monitor. If the profile doesn't describe correctly how colors are displayed on your monitor (which is your case) you see one thing but Photoshop assumes that you are seeing something else. So when you save your image with some profile Photoshop translates the colors form what it assumes you see on your monitor to the color space of the profile. The profile for example could be a device independent color space like sRGB or device specific like a particular printer profile. The destination colors will be correct if the monitor profile set in the Color Management as default correctly describes how your monitor displays colors.

                                                 

                                                Non - color managed programs usually assume that the color space of your monitor is sRGB as set in  Control Panel > Color Management > Advanced Tab > Device profile

                                                 

                                                When "Use my settings for this device". in the Devices Tab is checked the color managed programs will display images differently than non-color managed programs. In your case non - color managed programs display the images wrong because they assume that your monitor's color space is sRGB while it is a wide gamut and color managed programs display the colors differently but instead of correctly they are also wrong because the monitor profile doesn't describe correctly how your monitor displays colors.

                                                 

                                                when you uncheck "Use my settings for this device" all programs will assume that the color space of your monitor is sRGB and will display the colors in the same way without differences  but as I explained, the colors are still wrong which will not be obvious for images that you create from scratch referring to your monitor but will become a problem when you try to display them on other monitors or print them because you don't have a record (profile) that correctly describes what these RGB numbers that make up the image meant to you on your monitor.

                                                • 21. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                  Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                  Emil, there are cases - apparently depending on how the profile is installed - where the device profile will be in effect even when that box is unchecked.

                                                   

                                                  If all the profiles disappear from the list when the box is unchecked, only THEN will it revert to the system default.

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                    emil emil Community Member

                                                    I was editing my message to clarify this but my edit was not allowed may be because you answered it.

                                                     

                                                    Yes, that's the case when the profile is installed automatically by Windows update and can be avoid by removing the profile file from C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color which is more involved than your suggestion

                                                    But if the profile was copied there manually or installed by a calibration/profiling software all you have to do is uncheck "Use my settings for this device"

                                                    • 23. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                      FuelMe Community Member

                                                      Noel and Emil - I think we're getting somewhere. I went to http://www.color.org/srgbprofiles.xalter and downloaded the v2 color profile and installed it, then put that as my default. Lo and behold! - colors are consistent now regardless if the image is open in Bridge, Photoshop, browsers, or even Windows Explorer.

                                                       

                                                      In your opinion, is that the way to go or am I risking end user monitors to display my images too differently doing it this way?

                                                      If I understand you guys correctly, this way *should* work. (But I'm daft sometimes so maybe I do not understand you correctly LOL).

                                                      Thanks!

                                                      • 24. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                        Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                                                        Ok, that means that something was bad about the profile you were using before.

                                                        • 25. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                          emil emil Community Member

                                                          FuelMe wrote:

                                                          Noel and Emil - I think we're getting somewhere. I went to http://www.color.org/srgbprofiles.xalter and downloaded the v2 color profile and installed it, then put that as my default. ..

                                                          You didn't have to go that far. In the Device tab, clicking Add button, then selecting RGB IEC61966-2.1 from the list, and making it default is all you needed to do.

                                                          FuelMe wrote:

                                                          ...Lo and behold! - colors are consistent now regardless if the image is open in Bridge, Photoshop, browsers, or even Windows Explorer...

                                                          Yes, that's what happens when all programs assume that you have a monitor with the sRGB color space. Non-color managed programs can assume only that and you are basically making the color managed programs to do the same which results in equal image display across all programs.

                                                          FuelMe wrote:

                                                          ...In your opinion, is that the way to go or am I risking end user monitors to display my images too differently doing it this way?

                                                          If your images will be displayed or reproduced on other devices and if correctly displaying received images is important then definitely not the way to go, especially with a wide gamut monitor there will be a big difference.

                                                          FuelMe wrote:

                                                          ...If I understand you guys correctly, this way *should* work. (But I'm daft sometimes so maybe I do not understand you correctly LOL

                                                          Thanks!

                                                          This way works for the purpose of making all programs (non-color and color managed) display images in the same way on your monitor. Basically you are turning the color management off. The purpose of color management is to make colors appear the same on different devices. Only color managed programs can simulate other devices and this results in different display between color and non-color managed programs. You can't have it both ways until all programs that display images become color managed.

                                                          You have to decide what you are trying to achieve

                                                          • 26. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                            Noel Carboni Community Member
                                                            function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                            FuelMe wrote:


                                                            In your opinion, is that the way to go or am I risking end user monitors to display my images too differently doing it this way?


                                                            I won't offer an opinion either way, I'll just inform you of one of the possibilities, and you can make your own decision.

                                                             

                                                            It is actually possible to adjust on-monitor controls and video card output curves (with most video cards) to get your system to emulate sRGB quite well.  I actually run my system this way, in that I have specific need of an sRGB reference system to develop and test software with.  I have Dell monitors that provide a good rendition of sRGB.

                                                             

                                                            Since you say you can set your monitor to emulate sRGB, this is also a possibility for you.

                                                             

                                                            There is a chart you can use to visually check to see if your display, after the signal is generated by your video card and the image displayed on your screen, is close to sRGB.  You must view it at 100% original size, and assume it's got an sRGB document profile.

                                                             

                                                            http://forums.adobe.com/message/3379137#3379137

                                                             

                                                            It can be quite a handful to try to juggle the monitor controls, and the video card gamma curves et. al., but once you get the gradients in this chart looking smooth and gray, you can be confident your output response is very close to ideal sRGB.

                                                             

                                                            -Noel

                                                            • 27. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                              Noel Carboni Community Member
                                                              function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                              emil emil wrote:


                                                              Basically you are turning the color management off.

                                                               

                                                              Mr. President, that's not entirely accurate. 

                                                               

                                                              Let's think this through...

                                                               

                                                              The key being that if his display system is actually physically providing display characteristics that are a good match to sRGB, then using the sRGB profile to describe the display is EXACTLY what you'd want to do.

                                                               

                                                              If his system can be set to display sRGB accurately, and he uses the sRGB profile as the monitor profile, color-managed apps will properly display an image with any profile properly.

                                                               

                                                              The trick is that he may have to juggle the monitor controls and video driver output curves to make his system display sRGB.  I'm here to tell you this is quite doable, it just takes some finesse.  Having done it myself, I can also tell you it simplifies life from then on in just the ways FuelMe is wanting, per his posts up at the top of this thread.

                                                               

                                                              -Noel

                                                              • 28. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                                emil emil Community Member

                                                                Noel, you are absolutely correct, on theory.

                                                                On practice FuelMe won't be able to make the wide gamut Dell u3011 monitor become sRGB display just by using the hardware controls. There are some models from some manufacturers such as NEC that have internal software/hardware that can switch between standard and wide gamut display which is basically the same as having two monitors into one ( for a price that buys two monitors too ) Event then carlibration/profiling is still required for accurate color management.

                                                                 

                                                                When I said that the color management is basically turned off I meant that the final effect from displaying images in color managed programs is the same as non-color managed programs because they both assume sRGB color space while the monitor's color space is different. The color management will still make color conversions if the document has different color space or profile other than sRGB color space but this will be based on a wrong monitor profile.

                                                                 

                                                                Your scenario will work if the monitor's color space is the same as the sRGB color space. As far as I know the only reliable way to check the color space of a monitor is to use hardware calibration device such as colorimeter or densitometer.

                                                                On this web page http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/icc_profiles.htm people can share their custom monitor profiles along with the monitor settings. I just emailed mine to them ( watch for u2711 with Spyder 3). You can download any of these profiles and also you can download canned manufacturer profiles such as those from Dell http://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/product_support/en/monitor_down load?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs

                                                                Then go to this site http://www.iccview.de/content/view/3/7/lang,en/ and upload any monitor profile you want to check against any other color space. It will give a 3D plot of two color spaces in a 3D viewer that you can navigate to see it from all sides (using the Ctrl, Shift navigates faster). From all color profiles that I've checked so far I haven't seen a monitor profile that matches perfectly the sRGB color space.

                                                                • 29. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                                  Community Member

                                                                  There is a condensed way to address this.

                                                                   

                                                                  The extra red mentioned in the first post is commonly due to an unmanaged image being displayed on a wide gamut display. This is the reason you should include the sRGB ICC color profile in the Save for Web dialog. That is the best you can do to prepare images for the web.

                                                                   

                                                                  Once that is done, address your own way of viewing the web images. That means you should be using Safari, Firefox and/or IE9 to view color managed images. Users of wide gamut displays really need to stick to color managed browsers. Ignore Chrome, Opera and older versions of IE.

                                                                  • 30. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                                    emil emil Community Member

                                                                    Marian Driscoll wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    There is a condensed way to address this.

                                                                     

                                                                    The extra red mentioned in the first post is commonly due to an unmanaged image being displayed on a wide gamut display. This is the reason you should include the sRGB ICC color profile in the Save for Web dialog. That is the best you can do to prepare images for the web...

                                                                    The problem is that Photoshop does this by converting from the color space of the monitor as described in the monitor profile installed in the system to the device independent sRGB color space. When the color monitor profile does not correctly describe how colors are displayed on the monitor the result is unexpected. This is not a problem if done with received images that are trusted to be correctly in the color space described in their profile and disregarding how monitor displays them.

                                                                     

                                                                    Basically if you refer the monitor to approve, edit, or create images, when using wrong monitor profile the result is not accurate. If you just convert from one document profile that correctly describes the meaning of the colors to another color space disregarding how colors appear on the monitor you can get away without accurate monitor profile to get correct results. For example sRGB photos saved from a camera and converted to a printer profile or making sure they are assigned sRGB profile when using them on the web.

                                                                    • 31. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                                      Community Member

                                                                      Yeah - I'm not denying the monitor needs to be fixed too but the initial post sounded like the problem was primarily due to a lack of an embedded profile for the image. The first reply certainly did not help by advising not to embed a profile.

                                                                       

                                                                      Post#23 makes me think that the only thing achieved so far is that a wide gamut display has been dumbed down to sRGB. This only helps FuelMe's computer. Without also adding the profile to the image, other users of wide gamut displays (that do not also dumb theirs down to sRGB) will see that extra red too.

                                                                      • 32. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                                        Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                        I agree.  The way of the future seems to be clearly to ensure profiles are embedded in images.

                                                                         

                                                                        If anyone's interested, I started a thread a few weeks to debate which profile that ought to be...  http://forums.adobe.com/thread/792174

                                                                         

                                                                        -Noel

                                                                        • 33. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                                          sisyphos Community Member
                                                                          function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                                          emil emil wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          Then go to this site http://www.iccview.de/content/view/3/7/lang,en/ and upload any monitor profile you want to check against any other color space.

                                                                          Very useful site, thanks for posting that link, emil.

                                                                           

                                                                          Comparing my Dell standard gamut to sRGB was instructive, revealing that the red and green primaries are very different. I doubt it's possible to adjust the video card controls to compensate for this - and how do you even know if you get there?

                                                                           

                                                                          I suppose it's down to how accurate you need to be, but I see a calibration device as a carpenter's level. You don't want to trust your eyes.

                                                                          • 34. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                                            FuelMe Community Member

                                                                            As it stands, here is what I'm doing now.

                                                                            Thanks for the wonderful suggestions here, especially from Noel and Emil, I now use the standard sRGB profile instead of the monitor profile Dell had originally provided. This alone made all the difference.

                                                                            In theory I would love to have the perfectly color managed system, but this just doesn't seem to be in the cards for me at this time. Luckily I never ever have to print images - everything goes to the web.

                                                                            To recap, at my new workflow, my images look great and consistent regardless if I'm working on them in PS, Bridge, or publish them on the site. Everything looks as intended, regardless if it's viewed in Firefox, IE, Chrome, or Safari.

                                                                             

                                                                            I have tested my published images from five different monitors on both Windows and PC, and an Android smartphone. All images look very, very close, regardless of where they are viewed. I do *NOT* include color profiles in ready-to-publish images any longer either. This may be counterintuitive but frankly it's the only way I'm able to make them look good everywhere, at all times.

                                                                             

                                                                            Thanks to everyone who contributed - I bow to your knowledge and insight on this surprisingly difficult and confusing topic.

                                                                             

                                                                            Thank you!

                                                                            • 35. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                                              Ed 45ACP Community Member

                                                                              FuelMe wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              I do *NOT* include color profiles in ready-to-publish images any longer either. This may be counterintuitive but frankly it's the only way I'm able to make them look good everywhere, at all times.

                                                                               

                                                                              Thanks to everyone who contributed - I bow to your knowledge and insight on this surprisingly difficult and confusing topic.

                                                                               

                                                                              Thank you!

                                                                               

                                                                              Right, that was my point in my first post that I was so greatly chastised for.

                                                                              Glad you got it sorted out.

                                                                              • 36. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                                                Community Member

                                                                                It is unbelievable that Ed is still defending his first post as right when he argued with himself in the span of a few words. An image is not still tagged with a color profile if you do not embed (or tag) the profile in the image. Perhaps Ed's post illustrates what all of us should do here... post a misinformed contradiction at the start of each forum discussion so that we can come back days later and claim we were right about half of our initial post. 

                                                                                 

                                                                                FuelMe, this does not need to be a difficult and confusing topic. Your test of five different monitors only goes to show that you have 5 displays that all show sRGB.  What you have accomplished so far is to take a more expensive (~$1500) wide gamut monitor and dumb it down to a much less expensive sRGB monitor. You are essentially ignoring color management and counting on everyone else to be looking at sRGB display of web images. The problem is that not everyone is set to display sRGB for web images. More people, including you, are buying wide gamut displays ...or Macs  that oddly interpret untagged color images as monitor RGB instead (even  if monitor RGB is not sRGB). That is why we might add the sRGB profile to color-critical images. It is simply insurance for people that actually employ color management.

                                                                                 

                                                                                If a tagged sRGB image (as Ed recommended in the first response) has a noticeable difference between the same image without an embedded profile (as Ed also recommended in the first response) [...yeah, wrap your head around that nonsense!], then you probably still have something out of whack on your dumbed down sRGB system. A tagged sRGB image and an untagged image (created/modified in a sRGB workspace) should look alike on a complete sRGB environment.

                                                                                 

                                                                                This discussion is sadly hilarious. Why do people buy higher end equipment without understanding why they buy it?

                                                                                • 38. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                                                  Hudechrome Community Member

                                                                                  from my point of view, we have a mutually exclusive situation here: some have consistency without tagging or an embedded profile, some like myself get this consistency only with an embedded profile.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Both cannot be right.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  In the longer view, as stated earlier, all control is last the moment one posts to the Web, so I simply convert from the default ProPhoto to sRGB on a duplicate, set the jpeg parameters and convert to sRGB and it is fine. I found this out when posting to a known forum without converting and was flabbergasted at how mediocre the image looked. So I reposted the image to sRGB and it looke very close to the original as seen in PS using ProPhoto.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  That's the best I can do, and has the most consistency betweem Web, PS and print.

                                                                                  • 39. Re: sRGB Workflow - Color Nightmare
                                                                                    Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                                                    For web publishing, one of many options is indeed excluding the color profile.  If the image contains R, G, and B values in the sRGB space, no matter what monitor / system it's displayed on, no matter what the software chooses to assume, red is generally red, blue is generally blue, and green is generally green.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Further, the image will look no worse than other non-managed images on whatever system is displaying them, whether or not the software has color management.  In fact, you could make the point that it will look as saturated and vivid as the monitor can make it, whereas an image that's correctly tagged might look less saturated and more dull - e.g., on a wide-gamut monitor on a system that's properly color-managed.  Some might say that's a competitive disadvantage.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    So the question is:  Do you want to be more in the mainstream with other web pages, or do you want your images to show more accurate color in more places.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Different people might legitimately answer that question differently.  There is no one BEST way to do it.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I personally choose to publish in sRGB with embedded profiles, though I wouldn't bet I've been 100% consistent.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    -Noel

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