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    10 Bit Color In LR 3.3

    grandpahenry Community Member

      I am planning on buying aN LCD monitor that provides 10 bit color with Displayport.  Does LR support that depth?

        • 1. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
          trshaner Community Member

          You may want to look at this thread and rethink the "wide-gamut" monitor purchase!

           

          http://forums.adobe.com/message/3513566

           

          In theory a 10bit/color (30 bit) monitor will allow you to see "more accurate colors" on your monitor in "color profile aware" applications like Lightroom and Photoshop. Everything else will look pretty miserable, such as most Web browsers, Microsoft Office applications, etc.

           

          Most printers are 8bit/color (24 bit) so your 10bit monitor will do you no good unless your complete workflow is 10bit/color (30 bit), or better!

           

          Like I said, "In theory a 10 bit/color monitor should be better," but given that most applications are "color profile blind" and assume sRGB profile...it seems to be a futile effort. I am sure this will improve over time, perhaps 2-3 years from now.

           

          A "good" 24-bit monitor is probably better (and cheaper!) than a limited usage 30-bit monitor, at least for the next few years. IMHO.

          • 2. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
            grandpahenry Community Member

            Being new to color management and wondering if you might help me with a few things regarding this.

             

            I am using a Canon 5D II, an Epson 3880 printer, Windows XP Pro, and two inexpensive DVI Viewsonic 22" monitors.  I have profiled my monitors with Monaco EZ Color Suite.  When I print I use the Epson ICC profiles matching the paper I am using.  I do volume snapshot printing at Costco, which has a rather large print center.  When I print there I use ICC profiles matching their equipment and paper provided by Dry Creek Photo.

             

            Although I am an amateur photographer I still want to master digital photography.  I have been able to pretty well work out composition, lighting, etc., but don't feel really comfortable with color management. 

             

            I am in the process of getting a new computer system based on the Item I7 990, 12GB memory, Matrox M9128 Dual Head Graphics Card, running Windows 7 Pro 64 Bit.  Temporarily I am planning to use the two Viewsonic monitors in their native 1680 by 1050 native mode by connecting them to the graphics card using a display port cable and adapter to DVI.  My plan is to later purchase two 27" monitors to run using display port at 2650 by 1440.  I am looking at two monitors right now.  One is a dell and the other is a NEC, both capable of 10 bit.

             

            I have a number of questions regarding the workflow issue:

             

            1. Windows 7 appears to have support for both 16 and 32 bit, which looks like greater than 30 bit.  With the upgraded monitors, how will this affect normal stuff on the screen, like the Internet and applications like Office?

            2. If I choose 32 bit for Windows 7 will my workflow using LR or CS5 work right?

            3. How does color space, i.e., Adobe 98, Adobe sRGB, and ProPhoto affect the results?

            4. How does the Epson 3880 fit in to all of this?  I don't see any specifications regarding color depth with the 3880.

             

            Any help or sources of clarifying information greatly appreciated.

             

            Henry

            • 3. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3 - Is this even supported in LR yet?
              trshaner Community Member

              I just did a quick search to see if PS CS5 and/or Lightroom 3 supports anything higher than 24 bit color display output:

              http://forums.adobe.com/message/2556878

               

              It appears you will get no better than 8 bit/color currently, even with a 10 bit/color display! I read that some graphics cards can use Open GL to proved 32/48 bit color display support in PS (and LR?), but how this is accomplished is about as clear as mud!

               

              Does anyone else out there have direct confrmation from Adobe on the issue of  providing at 10/bit color or higher display output?

               

              It looks like your Epson 3880 printer can do better than 8 bit/color gamut:

               

              http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1003&message=36506977&changemode=1

               

              Does anyone have actual experience setting up LR 3 with a 10/bit color display and output to a wide gamut printer such as the Epson 3880?

              • 4. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3 - Is this even supported in LR yet?
                trshaner Community Member

                It looks like you are out of luck using the Epson 3880 on any Windows system. 16 bit/color driver support is only provided on Mac platforms:

                 

                http://shutterbug.com/equipmentreviews/scanners_printers/0410epson/index.html

                 

                Using The Printer
                Not much has changed in the printer driver interface—if you’ve used Epson printers in the past, you’ll feel right at home here. Both Windows (#4) and Macintosh (#5) drivers are functionally similar, although the Macintosh driver supports 16-bit output for better color fidelity and smoother tones.

                 

                Like I said, 10 bit/color display and printer support is currently about as clear as mud!

                 

                I bet there are a lot of people using 10/bit color displays and 16/bit color printers who in reality have only 8 bit/color data being sent to their displays and printers.....

                • 5. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                  grandpahenry Community Member

                  I did not know that.  Currently Windows 7 seems to support 16 and 32 bit color.  What are the consequences of that?  Henry

                  • 6. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                    grandpahenry Community Member

                    I guess the question is as to whether my strategy of using the Matrox M9128 with Display Port output is a wise choice.  I was thinking that thinking that I could use my current monitors using the display port to DCI connector until migrating to a 10 bit monitor later.  I guess I am betting on the future here.  Not sure what this all means if the only two choices available in Windows 7 are 16 bit and 32 bit.

                    • 7. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                      Mishamsk Community Member

                      You`ve mixed the output bit depth and internal bit depth. 10bit is about output. When you have normal monitor it receives 8bits per channel no matter what bit depth of original was (24bit or 48bit). Now if you have a 10bit enabled system those 8 or 16 bit per channel will be translated into 10 bit for output. That`s where you can get advantage.

                       

                      And theoreticaly you get 10bit only in CS5 for now as far as I know. You have to have a 10bit enabled video card too of course which is a top models from ati and nvidia (firegl and quadro).

                      • 8. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                        grandpahenry Community Member

                        Mike, are you saying that it doesn't matter what internal bit depth I select under Windows (16 or 32) the monitor gets only 8 bits per channel?  What about applications like LR and CS5?  What do you mean by a 10 bit enabled system?

                         

                        Forgive me, but I am a real neophyte here.

                         

                        Henry

                        • 9. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                          Mishamsk Community Member

                          Henry,

                           

                          You are right, most of the monitors demand color information encoded in 8bit per channel to display it. However you should set Windows to 32bit anyway.

                           

                          By 10bit enabled system I mean:

                           

                          1) A monitor capable of using 10bits

                          2) video card which supports 10bit output

                          3) software which supports 10bit output

                           

                          I`m not expert at this but as far as I know the only choice in imaging software which supports (kinda) 10bit is PS CS5.

                           

                          I`ve just bought a NEC Pa241w + Nvidia Quadro 600 which theoretically support 10bit output but I still miss the software part of equation)))

                          • 10. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                            trshaner Community Member

                            The complete "data processing" SW/HW path has to support at least 10 bit/color! WIndows 7 is good and maybe Photoshop, but you need a graphics card and driver that "explicitly supports 10 bit/color," or higher 16 bit/color (48-bit data). Such as what AMD claims for their ATI FirePro here:

                             

                            http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/software/Pages/adobe-photoshop.aspx

                             

                            I believe this requires Open GL driver support and compatible OS and hardware, which it appears you already have. DisplayPort is the right choice, but you need to check on the Matrox M9128 graphics card concerning 10 bit/color support, and HOW to enable it. Then the only qustion is.....does Lightroom even support the Open GL driver for 16 bit/color output to your DisplayPort?

                            • 11. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                              grandpahenry Community Member

                              Thank you for your reply!  I did check with the Matrox folks and they tell me that the M9128 does not support 10 bit.  They explained that the photography/gaming market is not their primary target.  After some coaxing the senior tech told me to check out the ATX 580.  I see that under CS5 supported devices it is not listed but others in the ATX series are. 

                               

                              The system I am trying to build is one that I expect to get multiple years of use so I am trying to build as much as I can into the hardware.  Do you have a specific model of the Firepro series in mind?

                               

                              Thanks,

                               

                              Henry

                              • 12. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                trshaner Community Member

                                I have no experience with 30-bit graphics cards so have to refer you to ATI and Nividia:

                                http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/Pages/ati-firepro-3d.as px

                                 

                                Unless you are a heavy gamer, I would choose the lowest price model that can actually support dual-independent displays, on two DisplayPort connectors, with separate LUTs. Given the issue of wide gamut display usage for browsers and other applications, you may want to use a 10 bit/color wide-screen display for LR and PS, and an 8 bit/color display setup for everything else.

                                 

                                This ATI model should work, but other less expensive ATI chipset models may also fit the bill:

                                ATI FirePro V5800

                                 

                                Read this PDF for more insight on Nvidia's models:

                                http://www.nvidia.com/docs/IO/40049/TB-04701-001_v02_new.pdf

                                 

                                It still has not been confirmed that LR 3.3 even supports 10 bit/color display output.....Photoshop CS5 yes!

                                 

                                And you aren't done yet! You will need to buy a monitor calibrator that supports wide gamut displays.....many simply do not:

                                http://www.flickr.com/groups/lm-pigs/discuss/72157622842942448/

                                • 13. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                  grandpahenry Community Member

                                  It turns out that Nvidia says that none of their graphics card support 10 bit.  It appears that the ATI Firepro 5800 has 10 bit support along with two display ports.  The GTX 580 has 10 bit support but only has DVI.  I think that Display Port is the future.  So maybe the Firepro is the right choice here.  

                                   

                                  I am not sure about LR 3.3 but it is annoying that they still have the memory leak problem. 

                                   

                                  Any comments from anyone.

                                   

                                  Henry

                                  • 14. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                    Mishamsk Community Member

                                    NVidia Quadro series DO support 10bit output. For example here is a quote from http://www.nvidia.com/object/builtforadobepros.html :

                                    Experience rich, vivid image quality with the broadest dynamic range with 10-bit color fidelity.

                                    I own the cheapest current model - Quadro 600 and it passes the 10bit test from my NEC pa241w.

                                    • 15. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                      trshaner Community Member

                                      I forgot to respond to this statement:

                                       

                                      The GTX 580 has 10 bit support but only has DVI.  I think that Display Port is the future.

                                       

                                      DVI display interface does NOT support 10 bit/color, only DisplayPort does! The GTX 580 cannot possibly support 10 bit/color display imaging with a DVI port!

                                       

                                      Yes, DisplayPort is the very best way to go! Why? Display port can support HDMI using a low-cost passive DisplayPort to HDMI cable. DVI single-link displays are also supported using low cost passive cables. Dual-link DVI will require a slightly higher cost "active dongle" cable. So, yes DisplayPort is way better than DVI or HDMI!

                                      • 16. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                        grandpahenry Community Member

                                        Mike, my comment about 10 bit was in error, it applied to GeForce cards like the GTX 580.  Another recommended choice is the ATI FirePro 5800 but it only has DVI outputs.

                                         

                                        Then it would appear that the Quadro 2000 is the best bet for me:

                                         

                                        1. It supports 10 bit operation using Display Port connection that will position me to use CS5 in the best possible configuration when I finally upgrade to either the NEC PA271 or the Dell U2711 connecting with Display Port.  I am not sure what the future of LR is considering that it still has a memory leak.  The Dell is LED technology that I am told is the future and is better than LCD.

                                        2. As far as I understand it I can use the Quadro 2000 is with the full 10 bit mode at 2560 x 1440 with CS5 and get good results when I choose a 27" monitor.

                                        3. In the interim, after my wallet recovers from the computer upgrade, Intel I7 990, 12GB memory, 2 OCZ Vertex Sata II SSDs, and the Quadro 2000, I can connect my low cost 1680 x 1050 Viewsonic monitors to the Quadra using a Display Port to DVI Adapter.

                                         

                                        Getting back to workflow, I shoot my 5D II in Full RAW so I don't believe that sRGB or Adobe 98 makes a difference.  Am I right on that?   When I import photos should I use Pro Photo or just Adobe 98?

                                         

                                        Sorry for all the questions, but I am really anxious to master this technology.

                                         

                                        Henry

                                        • 17. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                          Mishamsk Community Member

                                          Henry,

                                           

                                          There is no color space on import and no color space for RAW photos at all.

                                           

                                          This time you go way of topic here and enter a very complicated field of color managment. I suggest you read some articles regarding this topic. Here is a good link: http://www.ppmag.com/productreview-color.php

                                          • 18. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                            grandpahenry Community Member

                                            Mike, I apologize for the change of topic.  I am currently reading, and trying to understand, Practical Color Management by Eddie Tapp.  Thank you for the link to articles on color management. 

                                             

                                            The folks in the forum have been a great help on helping me select the right video card for my new system.

                                            • 19. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                              trshaner Community Member

                                              Yes, please let's not get into the whole colorspace thing (LR uses MelissaRGB), especially since no one has confirmed LR 3.3 even supports 10 bit/color ouput.

                                               

                                              You say:

                                               

                                              Another recommended choice is the ATI FirePro 5800 but it only has DVI outputs.

                                               

                                              The ATI FirePro V5800 Professional card has two DisplayPort interfaces AND one dual-link DVI interface, exactly the same as the Nvidia Quadro 2000:

                                               

                                              DisplayPort: 2 Standard
                                              Dual-link DVI: 1
                                              Max Resolution: 2560x1600 @ 60Hz

                                               

                                              See link here:

                                              http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/v5800/pages/v5800.aspx# 4

                                               

                                              GrandpaHenry you have a lot of energy! Assembling a system that can support 10 bit/color displays is not for the "faint of heart." Like I tell my grandkids sometimes.....slooooooooooow down! No offense intended, but I just suggest doing more product research and reading of detailed specification information. Both of the above mentioned graphics cards will fit the bill, but like I said there may be less expensive models that will also work. Wide Gamut monitor selection is even more challenging and a much more expensive system investment. Some of the wide gamut displays come bundled with a hardware monitor calibration device and software. This is probably a more economical display solution, which also provides easier setup. Monitor setup and calibration is crucial to ANY digital imaging workstation, and even more so for a wide gamut system!

                                               

                                              Read, read, and re-read reviews and datasheet specifications, and look at other forums using Google search. Wide Gamut is still in its infancy for ALL applications – You are a pioneer, and I respect you for the gumption and fortitude required to make the leap. Best of luck to you – I am sure you will be successful!

                                              • 20. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                grandpahenry Community Member

                                                Thanks for the good words.  I was initially misinformed about the ATI card.   After a couple hours of comparison and research it appears that the ATI FirePro V5800 is the way to go.  The Quadro blocks access to the adjacent slot and requires 3 times the amount of power to drive it.  For me that is important as I will have only 2 PCI Xpress slots and I don't want to waste one. 

                                                 

                                                As I said, I plan to use my current monitors for a few months before upgrading to the wide gamut displays which will give me time to stabilize my computer environment, migrate old applications, etc.

                                                 

                                                At some point I will have to calibrate the wide gamut monitors.  Do you have any input on which solution works the best?  I used Monaco (Xrite) for my current monitors but that was 5 years ago. 

                                                 

                                                Thanks,

                                                 

                                                Henry

                                                • 21. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                  trshaner Community Member

                                                  For wide gamut monitor profiling information look here:

                                                   

                                                  http://www.dpbestflow.org/node/554

                                                   

                                                  Also look at the Flicker link I already provided you.

                                                   

                                                  My first choice would be to buy a wide gamut monitor that comes bundled with a hardware monitor calibrator and software tailored specifcally for that monitor. Examples:

                                                   

                                                  27” EIZO ColorEdgeMODEL: CG275W (New, available end of March 2011)

                                                  27" Widescreen Color-Critical Desktop Monitor w/ SpectraViewII  MODEL: PA271W-BK-SV $1,449

                                                  30" Widescreen Color-Critical Desktop Monitor w/ SpectraViewII  MODEL: PA301W-BK-SV $2,49

                                                  Then do your own research on Google and let us know what you find is the best monitor and best deal!

                                                  • 22. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                    grandpahenry Community Member

                                                    I did some research on wide gamut monitors.  The Eizo is new and there are no available user reviews but I did find out some information regarding the other two:

                                                     

                                                    In terms of the NEC PA271, there was really only one serious criticism.  Most reviewers did not like the anti-glare screen.  Users seemed to think that the coating muted very light colors.  It is priced at about $1400 for a version that comes with a NEC supplied calibration system.  Without the calibration equipment and software it is more like $1100.  Other than that there was high praise for the unit.

                                                     

                                                    Another monitor I found was the Dell U2711.  There really were no serious complaints.  This one does not have a coating per se, but is designed to retard glare.   I spoke to someone at Dell today and this one could be had for under $900 with free shipping.

                                                     

                                                    The PA271 claims 10 bit depth and the U2711 boasts 12 bit.

                                                     

                                                    Almost all the reviewers noted that in order to get the best results application must be “color aware” else the colors displayed will be, as one fellow put it, really garish.  Apparently CS5 and the latest version of Firefox are color aware.

                                                     

                                                    I also spoke with Epson regarding what effect having a wide gamut monitor comparing displayed results with printed output.  Interestingly enough, and in contradiction to all the books I have read on LR and CS5, I was told that I would have better control letting the printer control color.  In addition, I was told that usually the biggest problem is having prints come out darker than what is displayed on the screen.  This can be controlled by accurate calibration of the monitor and can be further adjusted by options in the Epson printer driver. 

                                                     

                                                    Just sharing! 

                                                    • 23. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                      trshaner Community Member

                                                      First off let's remember that DELL does not manufacture monitors, AND neither do they cater to high-end digital imaging customers! It appears that the DELL U2711 uses the same LCD panel as the NEC PA271W monitor manufactured by NEC. See this link:

                                                      http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1526076

                                                       

                                                      Because of the anti-glare coating issue with this LCD panel, I believe neither the DELL U2711 nor NEC PA271W are good candidates for 10 bit/color usage. Yes, they are probably GREAT MONITORS and FANTASTIC for 8 bit/color usage....but that's not what you are looking for!

                                                       

                                                      Concerning the Epson printer issue, I am no expert. But if you use 'Printer Manages Color' as suggested by Epson, you are defeating most all of the color management capabilities available in LR, PS, InDesign, or whatever "color-managed" application you are using. You will in fact have to "Turn-Off" color-management by these applications to do what Epson is suggesting. Like I said I have no direct experience, but this thread may be helpful with setup for Epson 3880 printing in LR:

                                                       

                                                      http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1003&message=36366634&changemode=1

                                                       

                                                      Concerning Epson's remark about "dark prints, this is a doggedly academic issue! YOU MUST PROPERLY COLOR PROFILE THE MONITOR FOR PRINT MATCHING USING A HARWARE DEVICE and perhaps use paper soft proofing profiles, which BTW Lightroom doesn't currently support. This is a whole other topic of gigantic proportions! Suffice to say that using a wide gamut monitor in a properly setup Photoshop CS5 system should not be a problem, but we still do not have an answer concerning Lightroom 3.3 support for 10 bit/color display!

                                                      • 24. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                        grandpahenry Community Member

                                                        I did read through the links you provided.  It seems interesting that only the reviewers that I read on the PA271 complained about the coating and not the users of the U2711.  I understand what you say about really high end displays but I am only a (although a serious one), that really wants to understand the details of this process as well as wanting to achieve the best possible results.  Unfortunately, the EIZO monitors are just out of my budget so that I am afraid that unless something else comes along I must choose between the two. 

                                                         

                                                        I did calibrate one of my two monitors a while back using Monaco EZ Color Suite and the colorimeter that was part of the package.  I am reading that a solution using a spectrophotometer is better than a colorimeter for wide gamut monitors.  Any opinions greatly appreciated.

                                                         

                                                        After I get my new system up and running I will calibrate my existing monitors using Monaco until I get the new monitors.

                                                         

                                                        Yes, I know that the comments from Epson have to be taken with a grain of salt.

                                                         

                                                        I will continue my research,.....

                                                        • 25. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                          renambot Community Member

                                                          ]

                                                          The PA271 claims 10 bit depth and the U2711 boasts 12 bit.

                                                          ]

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          Do not confuse things: the Dell display has 12bit-processing and not 12-bit output. That's needed because when you compute values with X bits, you need a few more bits to store intermediate results without clipping (try to multiply two 12-bit values).

                                                           

                                                          Do not be fooled by PR brochures.

                                                           

                                                          Luc

                                                          • 26. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                            grandpahenry Community Member

                                                            I have finished the installation of my new system the

                                                            but for the moment I am using the Viewsonic 22" monitors I purchased about 5 years ago.

                                                             

                                                            The next phase of the project would be to choose Wide Gamut monitors.  I have been reading reviews on both the27"  Dell Ultra Sharp.  I can get two of these from Dell for $1916, including NJ Sales Tax, and Free shipping. I would have to get my own calibration hardware and software.

                                                             

                                                            I can get one Nec 27" including Spectraview II for 1578 plus another without calibration tools for 1198 through Amazon.

                                                             

                                                            I read in one of the reviews that the NEC has the capability to switch modes between sRGP, Adobe RGB, and Wide Gamut so that when I am not processing photos I will have a good looking display image with the Internet and other applications.

                                                             

                                                            Does anyone have a comment?

                                                             

                                                            Henry

                                                             

                                                            I Apparently

                                                            • 27. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                              trshaner Community Member

                                                              I'm pretty sure we established that Lightroom 3.4/3.4 RC does not support wide gamut (10 bit color and higher) display output, just 24 bit (8 bit color). Only Photoshop CS 4/5 supports wide gamut on WIndows 7, with a wide gamut display card, properly installed Open GL drivers, etc., etc, ad infinitum!

                                                               

                                                              There is a lively discussion on the topic of LR 3 10 bit support here:

                                                               

                                                              http://forums.adobe.com/message/3335880

                                                               

                                                              If your plans are to use a wide gamut display with Photoshop CS 4/5, then I would check the PS forum for monitor suggestions. Whatever wide gamut monitor you choose, make sure it has a DisplayPort input. DisplayPort is currently the only display interface that suports 10 bit color (30 bit)! Any manufacturer that advertises a wide gamut monitor using DVI and/or HDMI input only, is guilty of false advertising. Sure the LCD panel may be 10 bit color, but the signal driving it will only be 8 bit color with DVI or HDMI connectivity.

                                                              • 28. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                AlanUniqueName Community Member
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                                                                trshaner wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                DisplayPort is currently the only display interface that suports 10 bit color (30 bit)!

                                                                 

                                                                I'll repeat what I said on the discussion thread you referenced...

                                                                 

                                                                "Not sure thats totally correct, but perhaps I've missunderstood things.

                                                                 

                                                                For HDMI 1.3 ....

                                                                It optionally supports Deep Color, with 30-bit, 36-bit, and 48-bit xvYCC, sRGB, or YCbCr, compared to 24-bit sRGB or YCbCr in previous HDMI versions.

                                                                 

                                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

                                                                 

                                                                Alan"

                                                                 

                                                                I'm not claiming to be an expert and I am not stating that I know of any suitable screen or OS and hardware combination that delivers a 10 bit experience - I simply have not looked into it.   I'm not trying to correct the overall intent of your statements, but possibly your assertion regarding the current state of interface standards and technologies may need refinement.

                                                                 

                                                                PS - Many flat panel TVs are shipping at the HDMI 1.4 standard these days.   Please again note I am talking about what the HDMI interface technology is capable of, not necessarily what is delivered in reality.

                                                                • 29. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                  trshaner Community Member

                                                                  You are absolutely correct, I forgot that HDMI 1.3 added 10 bit color support....my appolgies! But DisplayPort has the ability to support not only DisplayPort interface monitors, but also DVI and HDMI using low cost "passive cables." This is by Intel's design to eliminate the need for "multiple display connectors." Intel plans on phasing out support for LVDS (laptop bare panel interface) and SDVO port (DVI) by 2013, and VGA interface by 2015:

                                                                   

                                                                  http://newsroom.intel.com/community/intel_newsroom/blog/2010/12/08/leading-pc-companies-mo ve-to-all-digital-display-technology-phasing-out-analog

                                                                   

                                                                  DisplayPort is expected to become the single PC digital display output for embedded flat panels, PC monitors and projectors.

                                                                   

                                                                  If I were in the market today looking for an expensive wide gamut computer display, I would insist on a Displayport interface. HDMI will continue to be used for "TV" monitors, but going forward it will disappear from computer applications.

                                                                   

                                                                  Just my 2 cents worth.

                                                                  • 30. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                    grandpahenry Community Member

                                                                    It could be that my plan is a reasonable one:

                                                                     

                                                                    1.  I am using the ATI FirePro V5800 3D which has 2 Display Port connectors and 1 DVI.  Right now I am using 2 inexpensive Viewsonic monitors using a Display Port to DVI adapter until I make up my mind on which wide gamut monitor I will select.  This adapter supports 10 bit color and a resolution up to 2560 x 1600.

                                                                    2.  I do use CS5 for some things but do a lot of my work in LR because of the simplicity.  I shoot in the RAW so I can use the RAW processor in CS5 almost as easily as LR and would have full wide gamut support.

                                                                    3.  The NEC 27" monitor seems to have a "Picture Mode" function that will let me use sRGB when doing routing computer work and drop into full mode when in CS5.  I will have the hardware capabilities and will just wait for the software to catch up and become color aware.

                                                                     

                                                                    Does this sound reasonable?

                                                                     

                                                                    Henry

                                                                    • 31. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                      trshaner Community Member

                                                                      You say:

                                                                       

                                                                      The NEC 27" monitor seems to have a "Picture Mode" function that will let me use sRGB when doing routing computer work and drop into full mode when in CS5. I will have the hardware capabilities and will just wait for the software to catch up and become color aware.

                                                                       

                                                                      Do you need to use two expensive wide gamut monitors that will NOT work properly with many applications and most Web browsers and web content? Why not buy one (1) wide gamut monitor in the largest wide-screen size you can afford, and continue to use one or both of your 22" monitors alongside the new wide screen monitor? I don't know what type of work you do currently so not sure if this would be a usable configuration. Lightroom GUI works very well for me with one (1) large wide-screen display.

                                                                       

                                                                      At the very least you could replace the two 22" monitors with a single wide-screen NOT wide-gamut monitor. I'm using an HP 2509M 25" wide-screen monitor which has very accurate color rendering after setup with my i1 Display 2 monitor calibrator. This would allow you to run Lightroom primary desktop on this standard wide screen display, and place the Lightroom secondary display (edited image or catalog review) on the wide-gamut display. Or you can keep Lightroom on the wide-gamut display and use the second standard wide-screen display simultaneously for other applications (Web, Email, etc.). Unless you have a professional digital photo editing business with heavy production demands and a big budget, I see no need for two wide-gamut monitors.

                                                                       

                                                                      Make sure you also leave room in yoru budget for a 'wide-gamut' monitor calibrator, or buy a monitor that comes bundled with one.

                                                                       

                                                                      Just my Irish 2 cents worth......I'd take the money saved and put it toward one of the lenses on my wish list!

                                                                      • 32. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                        grandpahenry Community Member

                                                                        Your comments are well taken!

                                                                         

                                                                        The system I just put into service is much more capable than I need immediately.  My plan is to grow into it and hopefully get 8 years out of it - the same strategy I used when I purchased my last system in 2003.  I am expecting software functions to grow and make every increasing demands on my hardware.

                                                                         

                                                                        My strategy, although admittedly expense, is to continue that with the displays.  Having 2 27" displays will accommodate my somewhat chaotic work habits in which I often have multiple windows open at any one time. 

                                                                         

                                                                        I agree with you that only CS5 will accommodate wide gamut usage but I expect that over the next couple of years other applications will also join in.  I am going to explore to see if the newly designed bridge in CS5 will be simple enough to use to potentially completely shift my work from LR to CS5.  Also, CS5 will do soft proofing.  If my knowledge is correct, and I will verify with NEC, "picture mode" will allow me to use one of both of these monitors in other modes that best work with other applications such as Office and the Internet.  

                                                                         

                                                                        If I ultimately go with the NEC monitors I will purchase one of them with the color calibration kit available for the 27" monitor.  I will, of course, calibrate both monitors.

                                                                         

                                                                        Again, I appreciate your thoughts,

                                                                        • 33. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                          trshaner Community Member

                                                                          If I ultimately go with the NEC monitors I will purchase one of them with the color calibration kit available for the 27" monitor.

                                                                           

                                                                          I would check the review here before going with this monitor. The out of box color accuracy is mediocre, especially for an expensive wide-gamut display. It also uses an 8 bit panel with frame rate control (FRC) to achieve 10 bit color, so not a true native 10 bit color panel! This not necessarily a bad thing as I have an HP 6 bit color 25" wide screen which uses FRC to achieve 8 bit color. It calibrates quite well for LR's sRGB 24 bit color output and exhibits virtually no banding or other artifacts! This 10 bit (8 bit FRC) LCD panel does have a wide gamut (97.1% Adobe RGB and 100% sRGB), but it does not have particularly good color "accuracy." Using a good hardware monitor calibrator will improve its color accuracy to quite good, but at a loss of gamut.

                                                                           

                                                                          NEC SpectraView Reference 271

                                                                          • 34. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                            grandpahenry Community Member

                                                                            The review was very enlightening.  I did not realize that there are two models of this monitor and to get absolutely the best from this idea of going to wide gamut I would have to purchase 2 of the "SV" models.  I am not quite sure if the color calibration hardware and software are separate but it appears that the calibration solution is tied to the hardware of the SV models.  I was disappointed that color accuracy is not what I had thought based on the user reviews I read so far. 

                                                                             

                                                                            Perhaps I should just look for the best of the non-wide gamut models to replace my inexpensive Viewsonic 22" displays.  I would appreciate anyone's recommendations but I would like large screens as I often have a lot of windows open.

                                                                            • 35. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                              PIRose Community Member

                                                                              Henry,

                                                                              I  would completely discount the fact that the NEC "SV" monitor might have  only mediocre color accuracy "out of the box". You're going to be calibrating regularly, right? The review article  clearly shows that this monitor was quite easily brought to a level of excellent color accuracy after calibration using the NEC SpectraView  software. Neither the software nor hardware came bundled with my NEC 2690WUXi wide-gamut display; I needed to buy my copy of Spectraview II software (at that time the SV-II software was $100); it's very well-designed and works with a number of calibration devices, including the Monaco Optix  XR colorimeter which I already happened to have. When I looked just now at the NEC site, I could not find the SV software available except  combined with the colorimeter (either as a separate package or bundled with the 27-SV model).

                                                                               

                                                                              Whether or not you can (or should) justify buying two wide-gamut monitors is a question I can't comment on, however you would not need for both monitors to be the "SV" models in order to use the software/hardware package. AFAIK, both models are completely identical except for the bundled package.

                                                                               

                                                                              Phil

                                                                              • 36. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                                trshaner Community Member

                                                                                Virtually ANY LCD monitor manufactured today (8 bit or 10 bit) once "calbrated" will produce excellent color accuracy, but lose gamut in the process. This can be minimized by using a monitor with a higher bit depth (12-14 bit) LUT built in to the display, which can be calibrated using the manufacture's software. This requires NEC's Spectravision package (SV) with software and a compatible wide gamut hardware calibrator. The SV models come with this package, but you may find the NEC included harware calibrator puck missing from the box:

                                                                                 

                                                                                http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=47119.0

                                                                                 

                                                                                There are still other quality issues with the panel's antiglare (AG) coating that have been raised by others:

                                                                                 

                                                                                http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1004&message=37735593&changemode=1

                                                                                 

                                                                                http://reviews.cnet.com/lcd-monitors/nec-multisync-pa271w/4505-3174_7-34108768.html

                                                                                 

                                                                                http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1589011

                                                                                 

                                                                                At these prices the quality issues like the anti-glare coating "speckle," dust particles and scratches, and missing parts that many have reported with the NEC PA271 are unaccepatble. Most of the display manufacturers are also annoucing new LED display models at similar prices. I'd wait another 3-6 months before making a decision on a monitor. They certainly can't be any worse than the currently avalable wide-gamut displays and may even be less expensive!

                                                                                • 37. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                                  grandpahenry Community Member

                                                                                  Thanks for the input.  I think I will wait a bit and see what happens in the marketplace.  I had no idea that the issue with AG was this bad.  I remember AG coatings back in the day when IBM produced some early color CRTs and remember the hassle of trying to keep them clean.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                                    wizard155 Community Member

                                                                                    Just remember that each colour channel is only 8-bit (256 colours per channel) and this is extremely limited after all. Eventually it'll become 32-bit but there has to be a lot of demand from users to push this to the forefront.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I know Adobe is working on their software being floating point capatible (if it hasn't already happened) and this is being primarily driven by HDRI photography more than anything else.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Having decent quality hardware is helpful in providing the best matched colour but you have to remember that the hardware is only as good as your eye for colour and that makes it fallible.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I guess at the end of the day if you aren't good at "having an eye for photography" then no matter how good your hardware is, you just won't make it to the pro photography level. This doesn't mean that if you are not wanting to go to that level that you have to give up.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: 10 Bit Color In LR 3.3
                                                                                      trshaner Community Member

                                                                                      Many people don't understand the difference between "Wide Gamut" and HDR (high dynamic range).

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Just remember that each colour channel is only 8-bit (256 colours per channel) and this is extremely limited after all. Eventually it'll become 32-bit but there has to be a lot of demand from users to push this to the forefront.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Misconception #1: In a few more years 30 bit (10 bit color) monitors and printers will become common instead of 24 bit (8 bit color), which is what you meant to say. Where did you ever get the idea that 8 bit color (24 bit) is extremely limited? IMHO the majority (99%) of today's photographers and their viewing audiences will never notice the difference between a wide gamut workflow picture (30 bit image, editing, and printing), unless looking at the two pictures side-by-side. Even then the differences will only be obvious when way "out-of-gamut" image colors are predominate in the picture, which is NOT typical. For commercial applications requiring "critical color imaging" and matching of paints, dyes, and other color objects – 30 bit color provides a very visible benefit. Thankfully for the majority of color photography work 8 bit color (24 bits) is more than adequate!

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Misconception #2: HDR photography requires 30 bit imaging. The vast majority of people doing HDR imaging use an 8 bit color (24 bits) workflow with very good results. The only benefit of 10 bit color (30 bits) in HDR photography is to provide a wider range of colors. Since HDR photography relies on the use of "multiple images" at different exposure levels to "capture" the dynamic range, 8 bit color (24 bits) is more than adequate. As camera technology evolves with higher dynamic range imaging sensors and electronics the use of a 30 bit workflow will also provide a benefit in HDR photography, by reducing the number of images required. We just aren’t there yet!

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I have worked in the computing technology industry for almost 45 years, and Moores Law is alive and well. There is no doubt 30 bit and higher color will be adopted over the next few years, simply because the cost to manufacture these products will go down! Enjoy what you have today, and make sure you understand the benefits of what may be available tomorrow!

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