29 Replies Latest reply: Mar 17, 2011 12:23 PM by able123 RSS

    Cineform warming?

    Christopher Duncan Community Member

      Downloaded the trial and converted some clips tonight. From AVCHD / 30p to Cineform maintaining the 30p frame rate. Dropped it into Premiere and saw a distinct difference between it and the original. There's a distinct warming in the Cineform clip.

       

      Not declaring the result bad or good, just wondering from those of you who use it if this is part of the intentional effect that it brings to the party or if my results are unusual.

       

      We'd white balanced the camera slightly on the blue side to warm up the footage a bit when we shot it, so in this case the additional effect might be a bridge too far. However, if warming is part of what Cineform does, then perhaps we just balance to true white and let the converter handle the warmth.

       

      Of course, I realize that I can approach color correction in post but I try to avoid the "fix it in the mix" mentality if I can get it right the first time.

        • 1. Re: Cineform warming?
          jkosmicki Community Member

          There should not be any color shift between the original clip and CineForm. I use CineForm all the time and have no such problem, you must be having an issue.

          Having said that, CineForm does have First Light which is a color-correction program that works non-destructively using metadata. Any changes you make to clips can be turned on and off and no rendering is required, you can even adjust the controls while the clip plays. What's cool is any color correction you apply to a clip will appear in any application, like Pr, Ae, Media Player, etc. That way you can do a color pass on your footage before loading into Premiere. Also any changes you make to your footage in First Light will show up in Premiere instantly.

          -Jeff

          • 2. Re: Cineform warming?
            Christopher Duncan Community Member

            Not sure what kind of issue I could be having.  Cineform doesn't have much in the way of options. Kept the original frame rate, hit the convert button, dropped the file into Premiere side by side with the original AVCHD footage. There's definitely a noticable difference in color.

            • 3. Re: Cineform warming?
              JSS1138 CommunityMVP

              What do the scopes show?


              • 4. Re: Cineform warming?
                jkosmicki Community Member

                You may want to ask on the CineForm forum at http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform-software-showcase/, they are very helpful there. Often times a shift to red indicates an application is displaying HD video using a rec. 601 color space instead of 709, but this should not be an issue with Premiere.

                • 5. Re: Cineform warming?
                  Christopher Duncan Community Member

                  Thanks for the link. Since you're obviously happy with Cineform, could you tell me what the benefits are to using it over the native AVCHD that I'm shooting? I understand that it's lighterweight for editing, but my current environment isn't struggling with the AVCHD files. Beyond that, I'm not really sure what it would do for me.

                  • 6. Re: Cineform warming?
                    Christopher Duncan Community Member

                    > What do the scopes show?

                     

                    Given the simplicity of the tool and limited configuration options, my expectations were that it would be a toaster, i.e. you plug it in and it just works. Haven't done any debugging as I'm not sure if it's a product I'm going to buy.

                    • 7. Re: Cineform warming?
                      jkosmicki Community Member

                      Converting camera source footage will give you 10bit 4:2:2 or 12bit 4:4:4:4 precision for compositing and color correction (instead of 8bit 4:2:0 of AVCHD). For me, pretty much 100% of my Premiere timelines get composited/finished in After Effects, CineForm is a great render format. It's basically as good as uncompressed, but with much smaller file size. 1080 24p CineForm will run about 14-15MB/s compared to 10bit uncompressed at 132MB/s, (yikes!). I also archive all of my finished shows with it. It's pretty much the only thing available for a compressed 10bit AVI codec.

                      It's certainly not a necessity for everyone, but it's the highest quality HD format I've found. Way better than ProRes (suck), better than DNxHD (better than ProRes but still QuickTime), and way less space and data rate requirements than uncompressed.

                      • 8. Re: Cineform warming?
                        JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                        > What do the scopes show?

                         

                        Given the simplicity of the tool and limited configuration options, my expectations were that it would be a toaster, i.e. you plug it in and it just works. Haven't done any debugging as I'm not sure if it's a product I'm going to buy.

                         

                        Man, that's just a total non-sequitur for me.  I am completely missing how that answer follows that question.

                        • 9. Re: Cineform warming?
                          Christopher Duncan Community Member

                          >  I am completely missing how that answer follows that question.

                           

                          I may not have understood your question properly. I thought you were asking if I'd taken the time to bring up the various waveform monitors, etc. and see why I'm getting these results, and to me, that's debugging (programmer's slang for diagnosing pretty much any problem).

                           

                          My expectations were that I'd get output that matched the input, i.e. no color shifting, and I was uncertain of any other benefits beyond file size (although jkosmicki's post helps quite a bit in that regard). Consequently, I wasn't in the mood for diagnosing / debugging what appears to be a problem with someone's product.

                           

                          If that's not what you meant by "what do the scopes show" let me know and I'll try to be more lucid. I'm doubtless too low on coffee to be coherent at the moment.

                          • 10. Re: Cineform warming?
                            Christopher Duncan Community Member

                            > Converting camera source footage will give you 10bit 4:2:2 or 12bit 4:4:4:4 precision

                             

                            Okay, while I really need to learn more about what these specs mean, and any educational links would be appreciated, I certainly understand the concept of having higher precision data to work with. That's a benefit I didn't realize that Cineform brought to the party.

                             

                            Not to be stupid (althouth it's unavoidable sometimes), but when you say, " pretty much 100% of my Premiere timelines get composited/finished in After Effects" do you mean that you edit the timelines in Premiere, export to Cineform, work on them in AE and output from there? Or are you doing preliminary work on your footage in AE and then bringing it into Premiere as the source footage for editing in the timeline?

                            • 11. Re: Cineform warming?
                              JSS1138 CommunityMVP
                              and to me, that's debugging

                               

                              No, you understood the question correctly.  But to me, it's not debugging, it's simply confirmation.  Whatever the scopes show won't actually help resolve any problem that may exist.  I was just wondering if you could see the issue there as well.  Sort of a 'check your eyes' kind of test.

                               

                              To further clarify the question, I wasn't necessarily asking if you had done it yet.  I was suggesting that you do it now and report back the results.

                              • 12. Re: Cineform warming?
                                jkosmicki Community Member

                                What I do is edit the "rough cut" in Premiere, getting the shots in place following a script or transcripts, what ever a particular job has (my work is mostly corporate, there are writers and producers up stream of me feeding me footage and scripts). I send these Premiere rough cuts for approval, usually after several back-and-forth's the timeline is locked and the content is all approved.

                                Then I lasso all the clips on the timeline and copy/paste to After Effects where the Premiere timeline is automatically rebuilt with all the edits in place. In AE I do all of my color correction, effects, compositing etc. I render the After Effects comp(s) out to a CineForm AVI (or multiple AVI's if the program is long, making a single AVI for each chapter/segment of the show).

                                I only render video (no audio) in AE, so in Premiere, I place the rendered AVI on a layer over the source footage on Premiere timeline, turn off the video for the source layers, and use the source audio which is already edited in place.

                                As an example, I've attached an image showing a current spot I am working on. Video 1 is the original rough cut, Video 2 is the rendered AVI from AE.

                                timeline.png

                                • 13. Re: Cineform warming?
                                  Christopher Duncan Community Member

                                  Great stuff, thanks man.

                                   

                                  > Then I lasso all the clips on the timeline and copy/paste to After Effects where the Premiere timeline is automatically rebuilt with all the edits in place

                                   

                                  That's one I didn't know about. Is this supported in CS4, or is it something new in CS 5?

                                  • 14. Re: Cineform warming?
                                    Christopher Duncan Community Member

                                    > What I do is edit the "rough cut" in Premiere,

                                     

                                    Forgot to ask - are these rough cuts the native footage from your camera / client, or do you first convert to Cineform before importing into Premiere to do your timeline work?

                                    • 15. Re: Cineform warming?
                                      Christopher Duncan Community Member

                                      > Sort of a 'check your eyes' kind of test.

                                       

                                      Well, the eyes could always be better, but doing an A / B between the original & Cineform footage shows distinct and obvious differences. Checking with the scopes is a worthwhile exercise, but since there's no way to tweak the color output of Cineform regardless of what the scopes tell me I'm not sure how it would help.

                                      • 16. Re: Cineform warming?
                                        jkosmicki Community Member

                                        That's one I didn't know about. Is this supported in CS4, or is it something new in CS 5?

                                         

                                        I believe it's always been a part of Premiere Pro (not Premiere).

                                         

                                        are these rough cuts the native footage from your camera / client, or do you first convert to Cineform before importing into Premiere to do your timeline work?

                                         

                                        Both, depends on the quality and amount of source footage (I usually don't have time to convert hours and hours of footage).

                                        • 17. Re: Cineform warming?
                                          Community Member

                                          Chris,

                                          are you still having the warming problem ?

                                           

                                          you're using tungten lights right ?  3200 kelvin ?

                                           

                                          how about doing a little test with camera....using gels on your lights for daylight...

                                           

                                          do you have CTB gel ? ( color temp blue )...also called full ctb ?

                                           

                                          geez...got booted off forum again and lost message....GRRRRRRRRRRR

                                           

                                          will email you instead

                                          • 18. Re: Cineform warming?
                                            JSS1138 CommunityMVP

                                            Checking with the scopes is a worthwhile exercise, but since there's no way to tweak the color output of Cineform regardless of what the scopes tell me I'm not sure how it would help.

                                             

                                            Man, I've never had such a hard time getting someone to run such a simple test.

                                             

                                            Fine, then.

                                            • 19. Re: Cineform warming?
                                              Christopher Duncan Community Member

                                              Jim, there's no need to get irritated. It's a good test, and I do plan on running it when I have time. I know you're trying to help, and I appreciate that. There's just not enough hours in the day at the moment and other things are competing for my time.

                                              • 20. Re: Cineform warming?
                                                Chuck A. McIntyre Community Member

                                                Chris:

                                                 

                                                I like the Cineform product with the exception of the activation process.

                                                 

                                                If you can edit the original (out of the camera) format OK without constant slowdowns and stuttering, I would stick with that.

                                                 

                                                If it's just a slight warming, and you want to work with the Cineform files, I would use Adobe's "Fast Color Corrector" and add a touch of blue.  If the end result looks good, I would do a "Paste Attributes" to the rest of the clips on the timeline.

                                                 

                                                It's been a while since I've used Cineform and I don't remember it warming clips.  I recently did a firmware update for my camera and that solved some issues.  Other than that, I can't think of anything else that could be the cause.

                                                • 21. Re: Cineform warming?
                                                  Averdahl Community Member

                                                  >That's one I didn't know about. Is this supported in CS4, or is it something new in CS 5?

                                                   

                                                  This is the only indication of what version you are using and i assume that you are using CS4.

                                                   

                                                  If yes, what you are seeing is a bug in CS4 with AVCHD footage. AVCHD is Rec 709 but comes in as Rec 601 in CS4 and when you compare it with the footage you get when transcoding to CineForm you see that colors are off since the CineForm is correct, ie Rec 709.

                                                   

                                                  The correct colors you see is the CineForm footage and not the colors from the native AVCHD footage in CS4.

                                                   

                                                  This issue is fixed in CS5.

                                                   

                                                  /Roger

                                                  • 22. Re: Cineform warming?
                                                    Christopher Duncan Community Member

                                                    Roger,

                                                     

                                                    Yes, I'm using CS4.

                                                     

                                                    > This issue is fixed in CS5.

                                                     

                                                    So Premiere lies to me about color when I'm using AVCHD? Yikes.

                                                     

                                                    That's a pretty freakin' huge bug to not be addressed in a CS4 patch.

                                                     

                                                    Thanks very much for the info, this explains what I'm seeing. I'd already decided to give Cineform a spin and now it looks like a requirement if I'm to trust what I see in CS4.

                                                    • 23. Re: Cineform warming?
                                                      Christopher Duncan Community Member

                                                      >  Often times a shift to red indicates an application is displaying HD video using a rec. 601 color space instead of 709...

                                                       

                                                      Looks like you were on the money with this.

                                                      • 24. Re: Cineform warming?
                                                        Community Member

                                                        wow, thats a big screwup...

                                                        is amazing how much you have to figure out with this stuff ...being new myself to digital and editing etc....and these little side issues certainly dont help.

                                                         

                                                        Chris, if what youre seeing on cineform ( which is apparantly the "correct" color ) is warmer than you wanted ( cause you did dial it up to be slightly warm on camera )....  you might want to do a test with the ctb I mentioned in email...and see if your daylight white balance acts nicer than the tungsten ....just a thought

                                                         

                                                        Rod

                                                         

                                                        eg  so that what you see on your camera monitor is in fact what you get when you get product ( now from cineform )

                                                        • 25. Re: Cineform warming?
                                                          Community Member

                                                          Chris,

                                                          even pro cameras ( maybe "especially" pro cameras ) when choosing white balance ( daylight, tungsten etc ) and lighting the "set"..now have a DIT village ( digital info tech )..  basically what used to be video village for playback of shots ( from video tap on film cameras ) ...is on digital cameras a new village....with calibrated monitors and monitors for scopes ( rgb histograms and waveform )...and there are custom built controls at that village to actually control the camera settings from that station...

                                                           

                                                          so, basically the lighting is changed ( cc with gels and also intensity ( scrims etc ) ) and / or camera settings are changed according to what is being "seen" at the DIT station....   what does this mean?   that for pro stuff just dialing in "tungsten" or "daylight" doesnt always give what its supposed to do...those are averages anyway...( 32k and 56k )...

                                                          It stands to reason that all cameras ( since its true with pro cameras ) have more or less "sensitivity" in certain areas of color spectrum depending on the white balance chosen...and you just need to find the one that best represents what you are seeing in your camera monitor and what you get for product ( with cineform giving you the right color space ).

                                                           

                                                          Rod

                                                           

                                                          ps.. this is why many people say, " choosing a digital camera is like choosing a "film stock"   as they all have slightly different characteristics

                                                          • 26. Re: Cineform warming?
                                                            Christopher Duncan Community Member

                                                            Rod,

                                                             

                                                            Good stuff, and thanks for the emails. The DP is pretty much on top of that, but of course I'm still learning. My biggest concern when I posted this was that whatever the clip looked like, my expectations were that the resulting Cineform file should look very similar to the AVCHD file. Apples to apples and all that (no computer puns intended). Now that I understand that the difference I was seeing is due to CS4's bug, I know what I'm looking at and why they're not the same.

                                                            • 27. Re: Cineform warming?
                                                              Community Member

                                                              right...which goes back to this initial post

                                                              --------------

                                                              There's a distinct warming  in the Cineform clip.

                                                               

                                                              Not declaring the result  bad or good, just wondering from those of you who use it if this is part  of the intentional effect that it brings to the party or if my results  are unusual.

                                                               

                                                              We'd white balanced the  camera slightly on the blue side to warm up the footage a bit when we  shot it,

                                                              --------------------------------------

                                                              soooo, if what you saw on camera monitor when you did that is what you WANT...but cineform is showing it warmer ( which is the correct color space )....you want to match what you saw on monitor with what cineform is giving you....

                                                               

                                                              and using daylight wb with cc on lights might do that, is what im saying...so what you see is what you get

                                                              • 28. Re: Cineform warming?
                                                                Community Member

                                                                LOL....forget what I just said....after all the debacles I've had recently using kodak grayscale and color swatches , my monitor probs and all that...listening to ME about this is like taking the advice of a hydrophobic warthog !

                                                                 

                                                                haha....

                                                                 

                                                                Rod

                                                                • 29. Re: Cineform warming?
                                                                  Community Member

                                                                  plus, just for the heck of it.....for those wanting to know what rec  601 is.......this warthog discovered this great definition.....

                                                                   

                                                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._601

                                                                   

                                                                  OMG