16 Replies Latest reply: Mar 27, 2011 6:01 PM by SteveG(AudioMasters) RSS

    mac database for vinyl music tracks?

    craig cheatham Community Member

      Hi folks,

      I'm starting to record my vinyl collection so I can play on my iPod and iTunes.

      Since this is such a labor intensive process, I'm hoping to streamline some of the routine.

      I've heard that there is software that will supply music metadata. Once I input the album title, it would automatically, divide the tracks, label the tracks, and input other info that iTunes would use.

      Does anyone know of such an application?

       

      The process requires recording in realtime, removing pops/clicks, splitting the recording into album tracks, labeling the tracks, finding the album artwork etc.

      I'd almost buy the CD instead, but some of my vinyl is hard to find on CD.

       

      Thanks for your consideration.

       

      Craig

        • 1. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
          SteveG(AudioMasters) Community Member

          There are apps that will pretty much do this with a ripped CD, but none that I'm aware of will do this directly with vinyl. Too many variables, basically, and that would make it almost impossible to automate. For instance, the systems that rely on exact track length to determine parameters would have a very hard time with vinyl, because most turntables have speed inaccuracies that would defeat them entirely. Even if you have the album name, it's not always straightforward either - a lot of CDs were released with 'bonus' tracks that show in the CDDB database, but won't be on your vinyl. All things considered, you'd probably end up chasing so many idiosyncracies that it would have been easier to do it manually anyway.

           

          I have some sympathy though, because I have a similar problem with some of my vinyl. My approach to it is to limit the amount I attempt to do in one go (so you don't go mad), and just do a few albums a week until they're done. Yes it's going to take a while, but ultimately it's more accurate than any automated system will ever be. But if you think that indexing vinyl's bad, just think about the issues of doing the same job with sound effects... (my other problem!)

          • 2. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
            Steve C2 Community Member

            Hi Craig,

             

            This is, of course, a late response.

             

             

             

            Regarding applications that can split a file based on silence...Samplitude is one such program.  Keep in mind that any app's choice of where to separate a file into songs is not necessarily the choice that you would make.  In some cases, though, you can save time with this approach.

             

            Regarding the other part of your question...First, burn your files to a CD in the order that they are listed in the album.  Then, using either iTunes, which goes to Gracenotes, or an app that goes to FreeDB (such as MediaMonkey), you can frequently get all of the album info that you want.  Keep in mind that neither Gracenotes nor FreeDB has everything.  What is missed by one app will sometimes be identified by the other.

             

            Steve

            • 3. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
              ryclark Community Member
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              Steve C2 wrote:

               

              Regarding the other part of your question...First, burn your files to a CD in the order that they are listed in the album.  Then, using either iTunes, which goes to Gracenotes, or an app that goes to FreeDB (such as MediaMonkey), you can frequently get all of the album info that you want.  Keep in mind that neither Gracenotes nor FreeDB has everything.  What is missed by one app will sometimes be identified by the other.

               

              Steve

               

              This isn't likely to work very sucessfully due to all the variables Steve G outlined above.

              • 4. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                Steve C2 Community Member

                Hi RY,

                 

                SteveG mentions that ripping from CD's, (I'm assuming that he's referring to commercially packaged CD's), is more likely to result in correct identification.  While this is correct , it is also true that vinyl albums can be identified as well.  It's true with FreeDB and probably with Gracenotes, that anyone can and does enter data into the database - I am assuming that this is the reason why sometimes there are multiple entries for an album, as well as sometimes there is an incorrect cataloging of songs.  If you look enough, some people take the effort to identify an album as coming from a vinyl source.  You might want to further investigate this approach before stating that it won't work.  It's not guaranteed to work with every album just like not every CD will get correct identification, but for someone hoping to reduce time and effort, it can be useful.

                 

                Steve

                • 5. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                  ryclark Community Member

                  " isn't likely to work very sucessfully " isn't quite the same as "won't work".

                  • 6. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                    SteveG(AudioMasters) Community Member

                    Steve C2 wrote:


                    You might want to further investigate this approach before stating that it won't work.  It's not guaranteed to work with every album just like not every CD will get correct identification, but for someone hoping to reduce time and effort, it can be useful.

                     

                    Well, the OP asked for an automated system - implying hands-off. And any system that has, effectively, to be checked carefully for every single album doesn't even get close, does it? I still think that it's moot as to which would be quicker - going through all this checking, or just entering the data manually. And since there's generally plenty of time whilst the album is playing, and you can easily create this data externally (there are apps for that still, I'm sure), it gives you something to do!

                    • 7. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                      craig cheatham Community Member

                      Hi, I'm the OP.

                       

                      Yes, I did say automate, but I didn't think there could be a system as simple as ripping CDs.

                      Any help streamilining the process could qualify as "automate" for me.

                      If there is some sort of catalog/database that I could use to pull up album info that I can use to copy and paste metadata, album art, etc., that would help.

                       

                      E.g. - let's say I record Allman Bros. Live at Filmore East. It's a double album, lots of cuts. It would be nice if, say, song title, writer, who is playing on the cut, - all that sort of stuff - could easily flow into the format used by iTunes. It would be fine if I have to copy and paste the info. I just don't want to have to spend all the time to read it off of the album cover, (or label) and then type it in. I can do it, but it is slower.

                       

                      I'm not so concerned about issues such as whether this is a special Japanese pressing, or German release. I'll get close to the stated time of each cut when I save out the tracks, but I didn't think there could be software that could take the recording of an entire side and divide it up, and label everything. I was hopeful, cause there is some cool software now, but I figure this is going to be a pretty analog process.

                       

                      Thanks for everyone's input on this

                      Craig

                      • 8. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                        Steve C2 Community Member

                        Hi Craig,

                         

                        You can copy album art into MediaMonkey and, I think, iTunes.  Be careful about your sources so that you son't infect your pc.  As far as copying metadata...I am not an expert here.  If you are talking about simple copy and paste of text, both iTunes and MediaMonkey are fine with that.  If you are interested in XML or some other format, I don't know.  MediaMonkey seems to allow for more field descriptions.  An interesting feature of MediaMonkey (I've been assuming you're using a PC - you might need to research other options for Mac) is the ability to rip to and play FLAC files.  Be aware that if you decide to use MediaMonkey that there is a certain problem with Win 7 and possibly earlier Windows versions.  So that you don't encounter a mysterious situation where you have run out of time to store your metadata, run it with admin rights.  Also, if you decide to stick with mp3, keep in mind that you either need to pay for the premium version of Media Monkey or install and integrate LAME with the software (probably not a big deal).  If you stick with mp3, you'll find that iTunes (with Gracenotes) and MediaMonkey (with FreeDB) complement each other.  Neither database has everything that the other does, so if your goal is to minimize metadata entry work and mp3 playback is not a concern, you should keep both iTunes and MediaMonkey.

                         

                        Steve

                        • 9. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                          Steve C2 Community Member

                          Hi Ry,

                           

                          Thank you for responding - I looked again and I think I misinterpreted your remark as "won't work" .  So, please accept my apologies.

                           

                          Steve

                          • 10. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                            Steve C2 Community Member

                            Hi Craig,

                             

                            One more thought on your original post.

                            I'd almost buy the CD instead, but some of my vinyl is hard to find on CD.

                            Buying the CD is definitely more convenient than the digitization process.  But...in many cases, it is possible for a cleaned-up vinyl  to sonically rival or even best a commercially-available CD.  It probably depends on the knowledge and skill applied to the digitization and cleanup, along with the equipment that is available, vs the knowledge and skill applied by the company selling the commercial CD, if it in fact chose to invest time and money to produce the best product possible.

                             

                            Steve

                            • 11. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                              SteveG(AudioMasters) Community Member

                              I'd say that the issues involved were rather greater than that.

                               

                              The real issue with CD releases from the original vinyl is that often, they are made from the master tape that was used to create the vinyl in the first place, because these were the tapes that were kept, not the original master tapes. There is almost invariably a considerable difference between these and the master tapes, inasmuch as they were compensated for bass deficiencies in the cutting process, and were usually peak-compressed so that the varigroove and cutter amps didn't go mad trying to track them and not have them distort too badly. The varigroove system used an 'early' playback head to compensate for the mechanical delay, and the machines these prepared tapes were played on were a bit special. But these tapes are where the original definition of 'mastering' came from - it was the process of making them, involving a rather special skill set on the part of the mastering engineer, as part of the process of cutting vinyl.

                               

                              But because these deficiencies were often compensated pretty well, you can frequently get a better result from the vinyl than you ever would from a CD made from the tape. The only real improvement would be to go back to the studio masters, and of course where these are available, then they are much better as a rule than the vinyl ever could be. So it pays to look into the process used to make CDs from older records, if you can, on an individual basis - they vary a lot.

                              • 12. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                                ryclark Community Member

                                @ SteveC2

                                 

                                No probs

                                • 13. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                                  Steve C2 Community Member

                                  Hi SteveG,

                                   

                                  I've been wondering, for a long time, what the reasons would be.  So, I'm glad you laid it out.

                                   

                                  If I understand correctly, you are referring to adjustments that were made for the RIAA curve, right?  If yes, then should these CD's be "remastered" once they've been purchased to improve the sound?

                                   

                                  There is another aspect to commercial cds of original vinyl releases or old live recordings.  Sometimes, and I don't know how frequently, they are released with significant hiss or even worse, digital clicks and crackle.  So, in this case, it is certainly possible to improve upon certain commercially released cds.

                                   

                                  There is another thing I've noticed through hearing "oldies" that are released by different labels.  Some sound louder than others.  I had assumed that some labels applied compression or increased levels to a degree that couldn't be done to vinyl records.  Is this actually what is taking place?

                                   

                                  Thanks,

                                  Steve

                                  • 14. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                                    SteveG(AudioMasters) Community Member

                                    Steve C2 wrote:

                                    If I understand correctly, you are referring to adjustments that were made for the RIAA curve, right?  If yes, then should these CD's be "remastered" once they've been purchased to improve the sound?

                                     

                                    There is another aspect to commercial cds of original vinyl releases or old live recordings.  Sometimes, and I don't know how frequently, they are released with significant hiss or even worse, digital clicks and crackle.  So, in this case, it is certainly possible to improve upon certain commercially released cds.

                                     

                                    There is another thing I've noticed through hearing "oldies" that are released by different labels.  Some sound louder than others.  I had assumed that some labels applied compression or increased levels to a degree that couldn't be done to vinyl records.  Is this actually what is taking place?

                                     

                                    It wasn't adjustments to the RIAA curve that caused problems, and since this process actually happened in the cutting amps it wouldn't have affected the cutting master tapes anyway. The major things that had to be fixed before getting that far applied to the bass treatment - you can't allow very much bass that's off to the right or left on vinyl, because it very rapidly causes mistracking and distortion, simply by causing assymetric grooves. So what happens is that the bass from the studio master is all mono'ed certainly below 90Hz and often above that too - and often compressed as well, just to reduce horizontal stylus movement. Too much of this shortens the amount of recording you can get on a side (the groove takes up more real-estate), and it's why the varigroove system (when it was used) had to be rather clever - it had to know what happened in the previous groove! But as a rule, not too much happened to the HF, unless whoever was mastering had a whole album to make 'cohesive' because it had been recorded in different studios - then they applied their judgement to everything. And back then they were actually pretty good at this.

                                     

                                    Incidentally the situation with newer 'dub plates' is slightly different - they invariably get played with semi-industrial cartridges, the tracks are shorter and consequently less bass compensation needs to be applied to them; you couldn't release them to the general public like that though - there would be complaints!

                                     

                                    Some releases of earlier recordings on CD were actually done from the vinyl, simply because the masters either couldn't be located, or more often because they weren't in very good condition. In this case, the vinyl would almost certainly produce a better result; at least it would if it was processed properly... and that often applies to level differences too. The number of people at a commercial level who can be trusted to do this sort of work is depressingly small, unfortunately - it takes more dedication than a mere employee can often manage, and nowadays most of the decent work is farmed out to specialists. And I'll tell you for nothing that one of the best in the world does all of his editing (and some processing, but not the critical bits) using Audition (read April 2011 Sound on Sound for more information about this).

                                     

                                    So does compression get applied with company re-releases? Well I'd hope not, but there is no guarantee of this. Do they hack about with recordings in other ways? Probably, because they think they know best. And almost invariably, they'd be better leaving things alone. Can somebody with the right equipment and a degree of dedication do a better job at home? Very often, yes - as long as you recognise that you should check out carefully the response of your playback system, and not make any EQ changes in general that cause the overall response to be flat. That said, you may well find instances where bass improvements could be made. In general though, with LPs, that's all you should need to tweak in terms of frequency response.

                                    • 15. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                                      craig cheatham Community Member

                                      First, thanks to both Steves for your time and info.

                                      SteveG(AudioMasters) wrote:

                                       

                                      So it pays to look into the process used to make CDs from older records, if you can, on an individual basis - they vary a lot.

                                      SteveG, I'm assuming you are suggesting that I find out about the history of the production of specific commercial CDs. How could I possibly get that info? Info such as what mastering method was used, who the engineer was, or at least what recording companies used best practices.

                                       

                                      I have some vinyl classical releases of CBS Masterworks that say "digital recording, audiophile pressing". Further it says, "Digitally recorded using the 3M Digital recorder. Mastered from the original studio recording at the CBS Recording Studios, NY, on the CBS DisComputer(TM)

                                       

                                      Any idea of how these releases compare to strictly analog process of around the same period (early 80's)?

                                      How would a CD of this recording compare to the vinyl?

                                       

                                      My playback system is middle of the road good:

                                      Harmon Kardon T-60 turntable

                                      Sumiko Pearl cartridge

                                      Proton 1100 preamp

                                      Nakamichi Receiver 2 amp

                                      Klipsch KG-4 speakers

                                       

                                      Craig

                                      • 16. Re: mac database for vinyl music tracks?
                                        SteveG(AudioMasters) Community Member

                                        craig cheatham wrote:

                                         


                                        SteveG, I'm assuming you are suggesting that I find out about the history of the production of specific commercial CDs. How could I possibly get that info? Info such as what mastering method was used, who the engineer was, or at least what recording companies used best practices.

                                         

                                        I have some vinyl classical releases of CBS Masterworks that say "digital recording, audiophile pressing". Further it says, "Digitally recorded using the 3M Digital recorder. Mastered from the original studio recording at the CBS Recording Studios, NY, on the CBS DisComputer(TM)

                                         

                                        Well, you have most of the info you need already, as far as the CBS releases are concerned. All you really need to know now is that the CBS DisComputer (TM) was the company's own digital version of varigroove technology, as described above. Some people think that when coupled to one of their digital recorders, the results sound a bit on the bright side, but that is supposed to be due possibly to something else in the lathe electronics, and there's no clear info about that. The one thing you need to watch out for though is their CX recordings - you really do need the decoder to play these, or they sound dreadful. The 3M digital recorder wasn't anything particular to write home about - it was an early machine and rapidly overtaken by things like Otari's RADAR system, which could produce excellent results. I wouldn't say that the 3M was bad - just so-so, compared to what came shortly afterwards.

                                         

                                        I have to say also that there are rumours abounding about these CBS masterworks recordings which basically say that they were compressed somewhat anyway. That may or may not be, but unless the people who say this were at the actual recording sessions, or have intimate knowledge of the post-processing, I don't really see that they can justify this in any sort of meaningful way. But it hardly matters; you couldn't undo that compression anyway. With most of these things, the best you can do is to get a bit of a clue as to what might have happened, and use your ears.

                                         

                                        Any idea of how these releases compare to strictly analog process of around the same period (early 80's)?

                                        How would a CD of this recording compare to the vinyl?

                                         

                                        Personally, I think that most of the analog stuff sounds okay, and the later digital material (which some mastering engineers threw their hands up in horror over) sounds generally rather bright, and getting more towards what you might expect to hear from a CD anyway. On the other hand, if you get hold of a proper audiophile-type DMM (direct metal mastered) disc made from a sympathetic digital master, you can get stunningly good results from it - pretty much as good as a CD, although you still get clicks because of the trapped charges in the vinyl. Because they cut out a lot of the processes in the vinyl mass production though, you won't find many of these disks around, simply because the production runs were limited to a single stamper. I own precisely one of them - recorded using a single stereo pair, and not treated in the slightest. When CBS say 'audiophile pressing' though, all they mean is that they weren't using second-hand vinyl (really!).