I have a similar problem, although I've noticed it more with items in the Layers palette. (e.g. I click on a layer, then move my mouse away—only to discover that Photoshop is still "holding" on to that layer). I wind up accidentally moving layers around a lot… and it's very, very, very frustrating. I have the latest versions of Snow Leopard and Photoshop CS5 on my 8-core Mac Pro with 24 GB of RAM. Photoshop (and the system) are both running from an SSD… and my scratch drives have hundreds of GB of free space.
I love Adobe software… but Photoshop CS5 has been headache after headache for me. I'd be more understanding if I wasn't using such a powerful machine… but with this system, I should be flying—not crawling.
Yes, I also have the problem when dragging layers. Do you use a graphics tablet by any chance? If yes, does the problem only happen with the tablet, or also with the mouse? I'm trying to figure out why more people aren't reporting this issue, as it really seems like a bug in Photoshop, so everyone should have the same problem. And it's so annoying that I would expect lots of angry people everywhere, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
Have you installed the 10.6.7 update? (it fixes some OS event handling bugs).
Do you have any third party plugins installed? If so, try disabling them. (because some buggy plugins are known to eat/mangle events)
If CS5 is running slowly for you, then something is wrong with your system -- it could be the OS, or a third party plugin.
I'm trying to figure out why more people aren't reporting this issue,
Because so far only 2 people seem to have seen your particular issue.
If others aren't complaining, then they probably aren't seeing it - which means it is most likely something specific to your system.
I do have a graphics tablet, yes. It's a WACOM Intuos (3, I believe… it's the anniversary edition). However, I have removed my Wacom software from my system and I've unplugged the tablet as well—to no avail.
With respect to Chris's comment, the fact that only two people have commented on this issue in this thread is not an indication that only two people are having the issue. I have been experiencing this issue intermittently for almost a full year, and this is the first I've posted about it. Why? In short, I've tried to be resourceful and solve the issue on my own, and now I've gotten desperate—having exhausted myself trying to find the solution. I have spent more hours troubleshooting Adobe Photoshop CS5 than I care to think about. I would have much rather spent that time using the products to create imagery and make my living.
Here's what I've done thus far in the last 2 days alone—without success:
- turned off OpenGL completely… un-checked all unnecessary options in Preferences (e.g. menu colors, font preview size, etc.)
- opened the Preset Manager, and deleted everything (e.g. brushes, styles, patterns, custom shapes… everything)
- reset my settings (both manually, and by holding down Cmd+Opt+Shift as I launched PS-CS5)
- removed all extensions via the extension manager
- removed all plug-ins—both 3rd party and native—from the Adobe Photoshop CS5 application folder
- performed a deep clean of cache files (local, system, all users)
- repaired permissions (several times)
- ran several maintenance utilities (Onyx, et al.), including daily, weekly and monthly scripts
- ran hardware test on my system, including on the RAM
- disabled FontExplorer Pro plug-ins for all Adobe products
- uninstalled my Wacom tablet, unplugged it (and all peripherals) from my system.
- uninstalled all applications that I could think of which might be getting in the way (e.g. growl)
- deleted my custom color-pickers, my QuickLook plug-ins and lots of other stuff from my user library
- removed everything from my start-up items list
- reinstalled Photoshop—both on my own user account and on a new user account
- updated the new Photoshop installs fully; verified that my OS was up to date (10.6.7)
- booted into safe mode
- spent about 4 hours reading through these forums and searching all over the internet, hoping to find a solution.
…which brings me to now. I'm not sure what else I can do, short of stripping my machine down to it's basic components, installing a new version of the OS on a new hard drive, and then installing Photoshop to see if it would work. I did that about 3-4 times last summer, and I'm not doing it again… not because I wouldn't be willing to—but because I know it probably wouldn't solve the problem.
To the engineers at Adobe, here are a couple thoughts:
1) First let me say this: I recognize that you guys work your butts off, and on the whole—your products are amazing, brilliant and irreplaceable. I am no less frustrated than some other users, but I think the way people interact on these forums (i.e. the rudeness with which people criticise and retort) is really unnecessary, and I'm sorry you have to put up with that.
2) As my old boss used to say: "it may not be your fault—but it's your problem." I think Adobe would be wise to take that concept to heart. Your brand is suffering from this piece of software—big time. I say that as an Adobe evangelist and loyalist. I have been using Photoshop since 1995 (3.0, I think?). I spend about 18 hours a day between PS and AI. I honestly don't know how I would continue my life if I didn't have these tools—they are that important to me. (That is why I invested nearly $6,000 into the best system I could afford to run them. I have an 8-core Mac Pro, with 24 GB of RAM, all current software, fast hard drives, an SSD boot drive, etc.)… and I feel like I'm running Photoshop on an old Powerbook G4 or something.
Maybe it's true that Apple is at fault for x, y, or z—but it's not Apple who's taking the PR hit—it's Adobe. I don't know what your options are, but if I were making decisions over there, I'd have someone up their you-know-what on an uncomfortably-regular basis—showing them how their shortcomings are affecting your brand/company/customers/bottom-line. Maybe it's true that the Open GL drivers are the reason that CS5 can't perform as well as CS4 (as is my experience), but it's Adobe's end users who are suffering, stressing, losing business, missing deadlines, getting frustrated, angry, etc. It doesn't matter who's fault it is, it matters that it gets fixed.
Just my $.02.
FTR, to clarify the exact behavior I'm experiencing:
When I open a file in PS-CS5, I can, for example, click on an eyeball in the layers palette, drag down, and have all the other eyeballs turn off. However, on my second click (meaning, if I click on a place where an eyeball used to be to turn the layer visibility back on), the lag kicks in. From that point forward… everything is click… wait… wait… ok.. I can click again… wait… wait… etc. It makes it impossible to build up any sort of working rhythm, and it totally drains creative energy. My mind is 10-steps ahead of my hands already… and now I have to wait a second or two between every click of the mouse. Ugh.
This may be a long shot, but here it goes:
Are any of the users experiencing this issue by any chance running a utility called iCopy in the background? If so, quit it and see if it makes a difference.
If it does, consider this:
"…there's a preference in iCopy called "capture mouse drags" that appears to be causing this (inability to drag Layers in Photoshop). When checked, it tries to copy any item you click and drag, system-wide. with this disabled, and icopy running, I am able to drag layers (in Photoshop) again.”
Nope… but thanks for the suggestion. Several months ago, I was experiencing this same exact problem (although to an even worse degree) in Illustrator CS5. I discovered that the application "Right Zoom" was interfering somehow. Disabling that app solved the problem, and I no longer have it installed.
Because of that experience, I spent a lot of time investigating whether there was a similar thing going on (now) with another app. As best I can tell, there isn't. As I mentioned, I uninstalled Growl, removed my QuickLook plug-ins, removed my Color-Pickers, a few custom preference panes, etc. I've checked Activity Monitor, but I don't see any processes that I recognize as apps that I've installed. (If memory serves me right, Right Zoom wasn't hogging resources… it was just interfering with Illustrator… thus, I was/am willing to quit/disable any process that I can identify as "optional" or belonging to me).
Any other ideas?
So… I've been digging and digging since my previous posts, and in the process, I've found a plethora of other examples in which users describe similar/identical issues. This issue is absolutely not limited to "two people," Chris. It seems very widespread, in fact. Here are but two such examples:
In addition to those examples (which are right in-line with this thread), there are dozens of others describing various input-lag issues—whether while painting, clicking on menus, etc.. Surely there must be some effort underway to understand this problem, no?
Thank you for your attention to this issue. Yes I have installed 10.6.7, and it does not fix the issue, and I do not have any 3rd party plugins installed. Photoshop CS5 is not running slow for me, everything is pretty much fine, except for this bug of course.
I have now switched Photoshop to 32 bit mode, and it seems to no longer be eating up loads of memory when I close a large document (maybe there's a memory leak in 64 bit?). I have only tested 32 bit mode for a few days, so I cannot say for sure, but as far as I can tell, I have not yet encountered the "sticky mouse" bug since then.
I suggest that everyone with the bug switch Photoshop to 32 bit mode by doing the following:
Applications Folder > Adobe Photoshop CS5 > Adobe Photoshop CS5.app > Right Click > Get Info > Check "Open in 32-bit mode"
And see if that solves the issue.
I will report back about whether this has really solved the problem or not.
The only slowness I am dealing with is this "sticky" mouse when clicking in the various palettes.
Running CS5 in 32-bit mode does not eliminate (or even reduce) this problem for me. I open a file, and in one move, can hide a series of layers quickly and flawlessly via the layers palette (as I can in 64-bit mode). It's the 2nd click that doesn't "register" for several seconds after that. This means I might click with the intention of un-hiding a layer (or a series of layers), but because of the lag, I may wind up moving a layer (or group) to a different location in the pallete… or dragging a layer (or group) off into the middle of the interface, etc.
In case it helps troubleshoot the problem, I want to mention one detail. I actually turned off my mouse (Apple Mighty Mouse) during the lag behavior as I was testing it vs. another mouse vs. a trackpad, etc. When I did that, the "hand/fist" icon (to indicate "grabbing a layer") remained in the "hand/fist" state. i.e. It didn't revert to the "finger-pointing" state. In other words, Photoshop seemed to still be reading or obeying a "mouse-down" command, (I am not a programmer…), and did so indefinitely—until I turned my mouse back on and clicked around a few times (at which point it regained its "mouse-up" mode, lagged around, and finally caught up).
Any ideas based on that?
This happens to me as well but I've only ever seen it in the layers pallete, such as dragging a layer or changing visibility. It also does not happen often enough, maybe 2-3 times a week, to be able to tell if something would fix it.
10.6.6, CS5, Wacom Intuos 4
Yes, that's mainly where I see it too (i.e. the Layers palette). I notice it in the History palette too—as I attempt to undo the unwanted results that occur because of this bug. On that note, the lag I see in the History palette may only be a continuation of the lag I experience in the layers palette. Sometimes the lag even "sticks." …meaning that when it occurs, I have to actively click, click, click around to un-paralyze it. This could be what's going on when I click on the History palette (meaning that there may not be a problem with that palette).
You say that you experience this 2–3 times/week. Are there any particular steps you take to deal with it when it pops up?
I usually just need to click once anywhere to 'unstick' it, then undo whatever it just changed. I don't think it has ever required more than one click to get it working again.
I wonder if this could also be related to the other layer problem I have, where on rare occasions I try to drag a layer/background to another document and PS complains the layer is locked. I have to switch to another program and back to get it to work again. That probably happens about as often as the other layer issue.
I must clarify that what my original post is about is NOT a "lag". I do not experience any kind of lag with the mouse, i.e. clicking or dragging that happens later than it should. What I experience is the mouse staying "clicked" even after I release it. It stays like that indefinitely, until I click again. Then it would get released and all is back to normal, until it happens again.
I don't think this has anything to do with the input device, as the problem never happens anywhere else but in Photoshop, and it also never happens when working on the canvas (i.e. it has never happened that I am drawing something with the Brush tool and the tool keeps drawing as I move the mouse even after I am no longer clicking). By "mouse" I mean "pen tablet" and by "clicking" I mean "when the pen is pressed onto the tablet".
By the way, I have also notices keys sticking, such as Shift and Alt. Say I'm doing an "Alt + Space + Click & Drag" to zoom in via the "Scrubby Zoom" feature. I release Alt and start to pan around with "Space + Click & Drag", I find that the canvas still zooms in and out as I move the cursor left and right, as if I was still holding Alt down. Pressing Alt again fixes the issue. This only happens from time to time, and it's probably off-topic actually, though it may be related.
there was a bug in the OS that was supposed to have been fixed with a previous update 10.6.6/10.6.7? Jesper Storm Bache (adobe) created a script to "unstick" keys. I'm now on 10.6.7 and still find that this little script comes in handy. So the question is whether this bug was fixed in the OS update or whether there is another bug around?
here's the link to the script, I wonder if it will unstick your sticky scrubbers?
This is all very much in line with what I'm experiencing. Today, I've made more attempts at resolving this issue, including:
- reconfiguring the Airport and Bluetooth antennae in my Mac Pro
- reconfiguring my Airport settings (in case there was a Wi-Fi / Bluetooth interference issue)
- trying 3 different graphics cards (ATI Radeon HD4870, ATI Radeon 5770, NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT)
Getting ready to try out Jesper's fix, and barring a miracle,installing a fresh copy of Snow Leopard on a freshly formatted Hard Drive and crossing my fingers.
Wish me luck...
I can confirm that the sticky slider issue is not solved by running Photoshop in 32-bit mode.
Yes - this problem has been haunting me for several months now. I do photoshop for a living and I can't tell you how many times my cursor "picks up" the layer that I am merely trying to click on. It'll just stick to the cursor and get dragged all over and end up in a different position in the layers pallette.
It is the most annoying and persistant bug I have had to deal with in a long time. I do have a Wacom tablet which I use almost exclusively but I recently was using the mouse more often and noticed it happens with that too. I have no third party plug-ins and have completely re-installed my entire system AND photoshop twice already (without transferring any of the old settings/preferences files) and it's still happening. Could it be caused by the Wacom driver? The only thing I haven't tried is installing an older version of that.
I beg for help to get rid of this behavior. I am on the floor weeping as I type this....
Good to know I'm not alone with the issue. I would be very happy if Adobe tried to do something to address this, I would gladly provide them with any technical information they require to figure out what the cause is.
The stickiest slider I have found which reproduces the issue very reliably is the first slider in the "Shadow/Highlight" dialog. If I drag that and release it, it will often continue to slide with my mouse. This works while clicking with my trackpad or my Wacom tablet.
I have to stress that the issue does NOT happen when painting on the canvas with the brush. It ONLY happens when dragging things in palettes, such as sliders and layers.
We have investigated, and we can't reproduce the problem at all.
Something on your system outside of Photoshop is intereferring with event handling, specifically mouse clicks (mouse up/ mouse down).
But we don't know what that might be.
Interesting that someone just revived this old thread because I just started experiencing this issue again this week (after a few months free of the torture). Previously, I had been experiencing it using CS5 and Snow Leopard. Now I'm using CS5.5 and Lion. To my recollection, I was still using Snow Leopard and CS5 when I stopped experiencing it.
Just to be clear: "this issue" (for me) occurs most frequently when selecting items in the layers panel (layers, masks, etc.)—and particularly when turning layers on or off (with the "eye" icon). The simplest way to explain it is that Photoshop fails to respond to the un-clicking of my mouse, such that I often move my cursor over my work, only to find a "closed-fist" icon holding onto a layer from my layers palette. No amount of time solves the problem. In other words—if I leave the room and come back an hour later, the fist is still closed. The only solution seems to be a bunch of clicks, which will eventually result in un-sticking the mouse click (followed, of course, by undoing whatever transpired in the document as a result of escaping this behavior).
Because it's completely debilitating, I was forced to do extensive testing on it this week. I tried many intermediate steps, but eventually ended up doing the following:
- disabling Airport
- disabling Bluetooth
- removing all internal hard drives (except the boot drive, of course)
- removing my internal eSATA PCIe card
- disconnecting all peripherals except for a corded mouse and corded keyboard
- removing both of my ATI video cards, and installing my stock NVIDIA 8800GT
- turning off all Wi-Fi and Bluetooth devices in my home, including my iPhone and iPad
- removing half my RAM (leaving 12 GB of RAM, in matched pairs)
When all was said and done, I was able to boot into a bare-bones Mac Pro 3,1 (8-core, early 2008)—using a brand new, freshly formatted SSD, with a brand new installation of OS X 10.7 (Lion), and a brand new installation of Adobe CS5.5. (I ran updates so both were completely current). This is the starkest system possible—there were no other applications installed, no plug-ins, no peripherals (internal or external), no wireless anything, etc.
And I still had the problem.
Then began more testing—fiddling with Photoshop settings. I turned off every nicety that I could find, including disabling Open GL, minimizing my history states and cache setting (20 and 4, respectively) trashing my Photoshop prefs and presets, etc. Still no luck.
After extensive fiddling, I believe that I got closer to identifying the problem than ever before. I am 95% confident that the problem involves layer styles, and here's why:
Both the file that reintroduced this issue to me this week, as well as the file that I recall working on at the time I first experienced this issue, contained numerous layers (arranged mostly in groups), and extensive use of layer styles. As a designer, I make heavy use of layer styles—usually applied to Smart Objects which have been pasted as such from Illustrator—on a regular basis. Even so, these files were particularly rich with layer styles, even compared to my typical usage. Of course, both of those files make use of lots of other things as well. But the reason I think I've narrowed it down to layer styles is because when I was trouble-shooting this week, I stripped the problematic file of various parts—piece-by-piece.
- I removed many layers—no luck
- I ungrouped all the layers, leaving a "flat" hierarchy—no luck
- I deleted all layer masks—no luck
- I deleted all alpha channels—no luck
- I continued removing layers—no luck
- I rasterized all Smart Objects (leaving the layer styles intact)—no luck
- I turned all layer styles off—suddenly, the problem seemed to stop… so I continued to experiment...
In the end, I got down to a very small list of layers ~6, with layer styles on all but one—and I was still experiencing the problem. The problem seemed to stop when I'd disable layer styles (or delete them) and reappear when I re-enabled them.
I checked all of the layer styles, and none of them involved anything abnormal. The layers that I had remaining used nothing more than drop shadows and inner shadows—and none of them used any funky contours or other settings. It's also worth noting that I had almost nothing (if anything) other than the default presets loaded (patterns, styles, brushes, contours, etc.). That's as far as I got before deciding that I was at the limit of what I could discern and contribute to solving this problem.
In case it matters, my file is not particularly big; its a 2400px x 2400px PSD, and it was already under 300 MB before I stripped it of most of its contents.
By virtue of going to such extreme "hardware-purification" and "software-purification" measures—as well as by experiencing this issue on both CS5 / Snow Leopard, and on CS5.5 / Lion (not to mention the weeks of my life that I spent trying to solve this problem earlier this year)—I am virtually certain that this issue is caused by Photoshop, and Photoshop alone. I am happy to supply any files, log reports or details to help resolve this matter, and I respectfully request to be informed of your efforts as it affects my ability to do my work (and thus, the quality of my life) very directly, and very severely.
P.S. Here is a link to the video I recorded back in April, which demonstrates this issue very clearly.
Message was edited by: jasonwarth (to add link to video)
If this helps, the problem never occurs outside of Photoshop CS5. It never happened in Photoshop CS4 or previous versions either. It also never occurs when painting with the brush, only while dragging/clicking things in palettes. The problem happened on Snow Leopard and Lion as well.
If the problem is outside of Photoshop, how come only Photoshop CS5 is affected, and only certain parts of it?
...it's becasue the problem isn't outside Photoshop (as best I can tell). I've experienced it on two versions of PS and two versions of OS X, and clearly, I'm not the only one experiencing it. Your description matches my experience very closely, in that it's not a brush/cursor issue, but a panel/palette issue.
Still waiting for the Adobe folks to chime in on this...
Still waiting for the Adobe folks to chime in on this...
Read back to post #21.
does this only occur with people that are using Wacom tablets?
does Adobe share this information (bug reports) with the tech folks at Wacom?
Yes, I read post #21, in which you state that "something on your system outside of Photoshop is interfering with event handling."
In post #22, I explained why your explanation seems extremely unlikely, if not demonstrably false.
I have undertaken extensive measures to troubleshoot this issue; I've documented my efforts meticulously; and I've shared my findings with you and the community—including thorough explanations and video demonstrations. The same bug has occurred on the last 2 versions of Photoshop (CS5 / CS5.1), running on the last 2 versions of OS X (Snow Leopard / Lion). Furthermore, I am able to reproduce the error on the cleanest, starkest user environment possible (a brand new system with all but the most essential hardware removed, disconnected or disabled, and with nothing but fresh, updated installations of OS X and Adobe CS5.5. I have no plugins, no custom preferences, no peripherals and no after-market hardware—and I've disabled bluetooth and wi-fi (Airport). I've tested RAM, removed RAM, and tested three video cards—two ATI cards (ATI Radeon HD 5770, ATI Radeon HD 4870 and an NVIDIA 8800GT).
Furthermore—other users in this thread are sharing reports of the same exact bug—reducing the likelihood of this being a quirky hardware issue even further.
So—please tell me, Chris—what could this "something on [our] system outside Photoshop" possibly be, in your professional estimation?
Everything I said still stands. You haven't ruled out much, and haven't narrowed down the cause.
Possible causes: a driver conflict (wacom has had bugs like this before), a bug in the OS settings (assistive settings have done things like this before), a third party plugin conflict (yep, seen it before), etc.
Yes, a few people have seen this problem. But many others have not. So what is common between the systems of those few that is absent from the systems of the few million other users?
- I confirmed that it's not an NVIDIA issue, or an ATI issue (by testing three cards independently);
- I confirmed that it's not a GPU issue (by disabling that feature, and by testing with three different video cards);
- I confirmed that it's not a faulty RAM issue (by removing/swapping big portions of RAM, and by testing it)
- I confirmed that it's not specific to Lion or Snow Leopard (since it occurs reliably on both)
- I confirmed that it's unrelated to internal hardware/peripherals (by uninstalling all hard drives and PCIe cards);
- I confirmed that it's unrelated to external peripherals (by disconnecting everything but a mouse, keyboard and display from my machine);
- I confirmed that it's not bluetooth or Airport related (by disabling both, and using a USB mouse & keyboard);
- I confirmed that it's not related to the brand or type of hard drive (by reproducing the bug with spinning platter drives and SSDs);
- I confirmed that it's not related to lingering preference files or settings (by installing a clean copy of OS X on a brand new drive);
- I confirmed that it's not related to 3rd-party drivers or plug-ins (by installing nothing but Adobe CS5.5, and updates);
- ..and I confirmed that it's isolated to CS5 (because it's never happened on CS4—which is confirmed by another user in this very thread!!!);
Did you even read my post?!
You mention Wacom and third party plugins—I DON'T HAVE THOSE INSTALLED. HELLO!?
Are assistive settings on by default—NO, SO I DIDN'T HAVE THEM TURNED ON! HELLOOOOOO?!
To answer your own question—ADOBE PHOTOSHOP CS5.x is the commonality between the systems that are REPORTING this issue. In fact, the dwindling list of other possibilities has all but vanished at this point. Disagree? Then put something on the table that HASN'T already been disproven by the facts stated in this thread. Vampires? Genies? A ham sandwhich stuck to my logic board that I didn't notice?
Out of a few million users, a handful are reporting a debilitating bug. It is reproducible, and has been exhaustively documented. That doesn't mean that only a handful of users are experiencing the bug—only that a few are actively discussing it. Furthermore, if a bug isn't experienced on a system, that doesn't mean that the bug is absent on the system—only that it's not being experienced.
<<abuse and non-helpful bits removed by admin>>
What's with the harsh tone in the last post?
Looks like someone's (yet again) taking out their life's frustrations in a forum that is about a bug in a piece of software. That's why a lot of people that I know (and myself) don't use these forums - because people come here to yell and rant and be unhelpful with their general anger. Had to get that out - now back to what we were discussing:
I have a Logitech Mouse driver (latest version 3.4.0) and a Wacom driver (latest version 6.1.6-4) installed. Do any of the other people who are experiencing this have any of these installed?
I will start trying to install older versions of the Wacom driver and see where that gets me.
I wouldn't rule out some other random conflict like Chris says. I had my Mac not be able to shut down cause I had installed Kaspersky's Anti-Virus for Mac and then disabled it. So it wasn't even actively running at all but messed up my Mac until I fully uninstalled it.
The harsh tone is because I've been trying to get this problem solved since APRIL. Not only that—but I've been as helpful as I possibly could be to Adobe and the rest of the community. I haven't stood by and watied for someone else to solve my problems—I've proactively disected every piece of this puzzle that I know how to—and I've dutifully reported every single detail as best I could.
Rather than concern or appreciation, my issue is met with dismissiveness from the developer, like, "You haven't ruled out much, and haven't narrowed down the cause." That made me feel great about the hours I spent troubleshooting and trying to help solve the problem, while not getting important work done. And then statements that are bewildering in their lack of attentiveness (e.g. suggestions that something like a plug-in or Wacom driver might be the cause of this bug, when I'd just explained at length how I spent a whole day with my machine dismantled, installing fresh versions of everything, and not installing a single thing other than OS X and ADOBE CS5. If someone had been through that trying to solve a problem with an expensive product I'd sold them—I'd be a lot more gracious and respectful than Mr. Cox has been.
Regarding the tone of this thread—I don't post much here either, because from my observations, it's not a very pleasant place (and because I don't need help learning Photoshop... only help when there are bugs). I guess I've contributed to that unpleasantness now. I don't think my statements were out of line, but if I was unfarily abusive, then I'm sorry about that. I am losing clients—real clients... my favorite clients—because I can't get my work done as a result of this bug. It's not a feature request—it's a debilitating bug. I've been stuck for a week now. If Chris had been helpful instead of following what seems to amount to a "deny, distract, dismiss" approach, then I would have been understanding. And in fact, my first post on this forum—though it was about a bug—expressed how appreciative I am of the developers of Photoshop and Illustrator because of the impact they've had on my life as a designer (which would not have been possible otherwise). But that's not what I got...
How can any logical person look at this thread and conclude that Chris Cox is being helpful or respectful by his posts? His statements don't show concern, appreciation, understanding, or a reflection that he's even read through the issue. Is his tone respectful in your eyes? What if you were in my position—waiting for a solution so you can continue to make a living and get on with your life—only to be dismissed like this because millions of other users don't have your problem. He offers no supporting facts or theories to bolster his statement that this issue is "something...outside Photoshop." Perhaps he's right—I don't know... I'm not a developer. But if he actually believes what he's saying and has strong reasoning for his statement—then why is he so coy about the supporting details. For example—what possible explanations are there (actual examples or theories, not just "something...")? So far, his suggestions are unsupported by the data that I've gone to great effort to provide. I don't need to be a developer to understand that.
Once again—how can he be so sure that it's something "outside Photoshop" when:
a) no other application has ever behaved this way on my entire system, ever;
b) Photoshop CS4 does NOT exhibit this behavior now—nor has it ever;
c) other components of Photoshop CS5 do not even exhibit this bug—so why isn't this "outside" force blocking mouse-up actions for those things;
d) this bug is replicable on different systems—different versions of OS X, different hard drives, different hardware configurations;
Nobody has offered explanations to these things—which makes me feel quite strongly that I'm not getting a truthful or respectful response. Is someone working on this problem? Does any developer want to take me up on my offer of my logs and files? I'll even send you my hard drive, and if I have to, my whole Mac Pro tower. Is there something else I should try? I'm all ears. In the meantime... I'm losing sleep, money, clients and sanity.
I'm more than willing to be wrong, but I'd put good money on the fact that I'm not—that this is a Photoshop bug, and it's being denied because it only affects a handful of users, so who cares... right? I've offered a handful of solid, objective reasons for that conclusion, and have yet to hear one objective reason why my conclusions can't be true, are likely not true, or may not be true. Furthermore, my experience is mirrored by the experiences of other users who have posted in this thread and elsewhere on the internet.
How can it be something outside Photoshop if there's nothing outside Photoshop??? The only things outside Photoshop are the OS, and the hardware on which it's running. I've experienced this bug twice this year—and the ONLY commonalities between those experiences were my logic board, and my monitor. Almost every other piece of the hardware setup is different, from the hard drives, to the brand and model of the video card(s), to the mouse and keyboard, to the operating system itself, to the version of CS5, to the plugins installed (or removed)... etc.
That leaves one logical source as the bug—Photoshop CS5. If I'm wrong—great! Tell me what part of my system to remove or change and I'll do it right away so that this mysterious entity will cease to cause this behavior in Photoshop. Please—tell me what to change. At this point, I'm even willing to consider buying a new computer—even though I don't need one. The only thing stopping me is the fear (for good reason) that if I went to the Apple Store today and brought home a new machine, Photoshop would exhibit the exact same behavior.
What options do I have left? I've tested, exhausted all my troubleshooting know-how, reported every detail I could, been respectful, been mean and angry, asked for help, done more troubleshooting... What's left—a refund?
also jellysquare, yes, I have a Wacom tablet, but I've experienced this issue on a clean system with nothing plugged in and no Wacom software installed. This issue has to be on OS X, in the Photoshop application, or perhaps in the specific Photoshop files (e.g. PSD).
What types of files do you experience this issue with? As I explained above, I use layers-heavy, styles-heavy documents a lot of the time–and those are the files that tend to cause (or reveal) this bug the most. Unfortunately, those are the ones I'm working with now. Do you also use multi-layer files? Lots of groupings? What is your hardware like? What type of Mac, what tyep of hard drives, how much RAM, etc?
Again—I don't think it can possibly be any other software aside from the OS or PS, so it doesn't make sense to focus in those areas unless someone can tell us why that might make sense... I don't think the hardware will end up being relevant, but I ask just in case there's something to learn from your setup.
point taken and well stated.
Thanks for the time you spent trying to figure this problem out.
I haven't done a lot of heavy photoshop work on any other computers so I haven't seen the bug in any other configuration. I also work on very large (last file was 3.2GB!) and multi-layered (last file had probably over 200 layers) files and also lots of groups and sub-groups etc. And now that you mention it, I think it seems to happen more with those files.
My Mac is about maxed out with 2 SSD RAID and 24GB RAM.
It's driving me mad sometimes. Not sure what else to try.
OK, well this is the first bit of encouraging information I've received in a long time, since it bolsters the exact theory I've developed. I was already 95% certain that the bug is related to LAYERS—possibly the number of them; possibly their arrangement; possibly their properties (e.g. effects, blending modes, etc.).
As I explained in one of my other posts in this thread—I did a great deal of testing this week and concluded that layer styles was likely the culprit. As I type this now, I just realized that the Adobe moderator who removed part of my last post as "abusive" just so happened to remove the last line of my post, in which I said (paraphrasing...) "I spent my entire weekend doing this, and for heaven's sake, I even got so far as to tell you the exact area that I identified as the likely culprit—LAYER STYLES."
To the Adobe moderator who removed that statement (whoever you might be...): Was that part deemed "abusive" or was it deemed "non-helpful?" I'm curious about that, because it was probably the most important line of the entire, months-long thread. Perhaps it was a total coincidence—but if so, wow, it seems like a particularly unfortunate one, given how precisely it aligns with my earlier statements about feeling intentionally mislead and like like there's an active attempt to diminish, deny, distract from, and dismiss the reports of this bug.
So far, here are the troubling facts regarding Adobe's response:
So, putting aside the above behavior, which has nothing to do with solving the bug other than compounding this terrible situation...your post, jellysquare, has lead us to a greater realization about this bug, based on our mutual experience. The two commonalities that I see right now are as follows:
- long-standing reports of a specific and reproducable bug, consistency among those reporting it (not all in this thread);
- confident assertions from Adobe (Chris Cox) that the issue is caused "outside" Photoshop—but without specific rationale or evidence to support that statement other than noting that sometimes, 3rd party drivers and other external factors can cause issues;
- thoroughly-detailed reports about the bug which paint an increasingly-clear and ever-narrower picture of its likely source(s)—with the clearest possibility by far being Photoshop CS5;
- unusual assertions from Adobe (Chris Cox) which falsely assert that my reports had done little to narrow down or eliminate possible causes—despite the clear, detailed objective analysis they contained (which eliminated a lot of usual- and potential-suspects);
- additional unusual statements from Adobe (Chris Cox), which inexplicably fail to even acknowledge the basic facts of the matter that have been reported—and instead, suggest a potential cause which has already been disproven by those facts;
- removal (/"censoring," depending on your view) by an anonymous Adobe moderator of statements I made expressing shock and disbelief that a lead developer of Photoshop would so grossly mischaracterize the reports of this bug that I had gone to such lengths to troubleshoot and detail in this post. My language may have been pointed and harsh, but it was language which was appropriate to the situation, in my view. I wondered aloud if he had read any of the facts that I had reported, and/or if he was attempting to cover something up. I no longer am wondering—I'm asserting that it must be one or the other (or both). I welcome any facts or statements that refute my assertion, and will gladly retract it (with an apology) if appropriate. I stand by my previous statements to the letter.
- we both use lots of layers
- we both appear to also use lots of groups as a result of organizing our layers.
I tend to max out in file size ~1 GB, so I'm less inclined to believe that our issue is related to file size, although it could be. As I mentioned, I also use lots of layer styles, and a fair amount of layer masks in my files. One other detail which may be of interest is that I also make heavy use of the layer color feature in the layers panel. I often color-code my layers and layer groups so it's easier to understand the structure, etc. Frankly, I don't see much reason to speculate on other commonalities unless/until there is more evidence to support that path. In the meantime, jellysquare—I'd be happy to send you a file or two to test out, to see if it helps illuminate any additional insight. We seem to have very similar situations—right down to identical amounts of RAM. I'll list my basic specs below, in case it's relevant. Again—I use lots of plug-ins and other bells & whistles (WACOM tablet, etc.) but as I've proven above, this bug is unrelated to any software (including plug-ins and drivers) that isn't CS5.x or OS X (Snow Leopard or Lion). As for hardware, the list of possibilities on my end is very small—the logic board, or one of my displays (video cards, hard drives, peripherals have all been eliminated, and RAM has been tested and verified).
To Adobe—I say this: I am more than willing to continue working with developers to find a solution to this problem. I have already contributed a great deal in terms of man-hours, information (reporting my troubleshooting) and sacrifice (losing wages and most likely, my most treasured client). I will not be dismissed or discouraged from continuing to pursue the resolution of this matter. My livlihood is greatly affected by the outcome of this situation, and I've already lost a lot as a result of it. Please do the right things without further delay: 1) acknowledge the bug, 2) review the information that I and others have dutifully relayed to you (above), 3) commit to resolving this bug, and 4) resolve it in a timely manner.
Mac Pro 3,1 (early, 2008); 8-core 2.8Ghz; 30" ACD + 23" ACD"; ATI 5770 and 4870 (although tested with other configs, including NVIDIA 8800GT); 24.0 GB of RAM (though tested with other configurations as well); OS X Lion (and Snow Leopard); CS5 and CS5.5; Apple Bluetooth Mighty Mouse (although tested with wired non-Apple mouse too); Apple wireless and wired keyboards.
Well, some of that I can answer.
An admin/moderator called me at home, on a holiday weekend, to ask about the language in your post and whether they should remove the foul language and abusive ranting, or simply remove the entire post and flag you for TOS violations. I asked that only the abusive parts be removed.
But your continued accusations are not helping your case.
Chris—I'm sincerely sorry that you were called at home on a holiday weekend about my post. Sincerely. I'm sorry. That shouldn't have happened, and I apologize for that.
I do ask that you also understand that I spent my entire weekend trouble-shooting this issue—which is now several months old—while waiting for an answer or at least a respectful and helpful response of some sort. Here we are with another week down the tubes and still have yet to receive some sort of expression of an Adobe employee taking my case seriously. I don't know if you—or anyone else—is investigating this. As best I can tell, you are not—and I base that on the series of confusing (and in some cases, patently false) assertions that you made regarding the facts of this matter—including confidently promoting the notion that this is not a problem with Photoshop CS5 (which it clearly is), and the notion that I hadn't done anything to narrow down the list of possible causes—which I clearly have. If you disagree, as you claim to, with either of those statements—then the very least you (or someone at Adobe) can do is to take ten minutes out of your schedule to draft a proper, logical and honest assesment of why you have come to those conclusions. I don't think that's asking too much at all. In fact, it's very disappointing that I've had to expend as much effort as I have to deal with this issue—and I still don't have an official, "right on, we're working on it," from you guys.
If you want to make a case that it was abusive of me to telling you that Layer Styles was likely the cause of this issue—go right ahead. I admit that my entire statement was a bit "hot," but you have yet to even acknowledge the validity of my concern—much less the tremendous effort I've undertaken at my own personal expense (and at your/Adobe's benefit) to contribute to the resolution of this problem... or the real-world dollars and opportunity cost to my creative reputation. Do you have many other users who go to these lengths when identifying bugs? I doubt it. As I've told you in another thread—if you've heard from me, it's only after I've already expended significant effort trying to solve the problem on my own. I don't whine about stuff and ask other people to fix it, if I can fix it myself. But I can't. I'm not a programmer, and I don't know how to run any diagnostics on my own—although trust me—I've tried. I've tried Xcode, and learning Applescript to see if I could craft my own workaround or identify the issue with even greater clarity. But I don't know either of those technologies, and it's not work that I should be doing anyway. There is a reason that a CS5 Design Master license costs upwards of $2,500, right? I've gotten much more attentive and respectful response from free apps than I've gotten from Adobe over this issue. What is that license for, if not for respectful customer service?
I have never received a paycheck from Adobe, Chris. I receive (small) paychecks when I get my work done—which I have not been able to do for over a week now... and this is not the first time that has happened as a result of this bug. And the week before this reappeared, I spent a significant amount of time testing out CS6 and taking notes to share with you and your development team—for no other reason that that I know this program inside and out (or at least large portions of it), and want to contribute to it in any way I can. So yeah... I was angry. Truthfully—I still am. My paycheck isn't even the reason I do what I do. I do what I do because it fulfills me on an emotional and spiritual level—which I stated in my very first post back in April. Suffice to say—I feel spiritually and emotionally drained right now. I'm just so incredibly exhausted, having spent the last couple hours nearly driven to tears by the combination of a fulll week of never-ending frustration, the loss of an important client and my favorite project, and what seems to be a total disregard for my case by you and whomever else from Adobe has read these posts without taking action to begin bringing about resolution.
Again—if you have a case to make, then make it. Thus far, you've said a few things which made it seem like either a) you haven't even read the top-line details of my detailed reports, or b) that you are determined to squash me—not the bug. I've explained why I've come to those conclusions very clearly. Your assertion that I hadn't narrowed anything down is so demonstrably false that I consider that to be an abusive statement. Your mention of Wacom drivers and third-party-related possibilities right after I'd spent about an hour composing a post (following up on a couple of days worth of volunteer trouble-shooting) detailing to the nth degree why it absolutely could not be either one of those things is totally perplexing, to the point where it make so little sense that someone of your presumed intelligence (i.e. a big-shot developer for one of the worlds most well-known applications) could actually respond that way after reading any part of what I'd just wrote. It makes no sense. Either you didn't read it, or you did read it, and you had a reason for making a statement that you knew wasn't in line with the facts of the matter. I don't know which one it is, but it's one of those things, unless I'm totally missing something.
You have offered a few terse responses to my very detailed reports—and in the few short sentences that you've wrote, you've made many statements that have no effect on pushing the issue forward or getting it closer to resolution. I don't want it to be a personal issue—but I don't feel like I made it personal until you did. Yes, my statments were direct and pointed—but at least they've been transparent, articulate and well-explained. You continue to speak about things like my continued accusations, your weekend, the TOS of the forum, and all sort of things that only exacerbate an already-painful, already-costly issue. I've told you that I am determined to get resolution on this issue—and I am serious. I will not accept blanket dismissals, and I will not be intimidated into backing down from my demand for a resolution. I have helped you get as far as I can get on my own, and I am willing to continue to help in any way I can.
I quit a very high-paying job 4 years ago to pursue a career as a designer. I make next to nothing now, but I feel fullfilled because of the creative process. This bug has prevented me from all fulfillment. It has strained my personal and professional relationships, and has taken a heavy emotional toll on me. Please step up and make an effort to get it resolved—or at least assign someone else to solve it. I can provide whatever you need from my end—and again, I'm sorry for your phone call this weekend.
Jason, is it a particular layer/layer style, or any one on that file What if you copy-paste the layer to another file?
Could you send me a link to that file? ( a dropbox link through private message?)
I'm not an Adobe employee, but I could try to see if I can reproduce the issue on my machine, and maybe forward the file to Chris, if I experience the bug.
It seems that you have taken more than extensive troubleshooting steps. Thanks for caring.
You know, Chris receives/reads many, many bug reports, makes sites visits, etc. So, if he tells that the issue is not widespread, he is not lying, he has a different perspective. And trust me, he cares, too. Might be that he has seen too many false positives.
Keep in mind that text is not the best way to express ourselves, and Chris posts here on his spare /compile times.
So making posts more concise (or with a Bottom Line Up Front) might help you getting help from him.
This caught my eye because it is happening to me as well - with some differences. It also happens in InDesign and Illustrator. The behavior feels like my Wacom pen is still engaged until I lift it considerably (about an inch) off the tablet.
2 x 2.4 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
24 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
9" x 12" Intuos 2
Control Panel and Driver Version: 6.1.6-4
Let's hope we discover a resolution.
Note that Photoshop, InDesign and Illustrator do not share code.
If the problem is common between those apps, then the cause is almost certainly outside of the apps (possibly OS, driver, or other apps).