22 Replies Latest reply: May 6, 2011 12:43 PM by Claustral RSS

    Colors more saturated outside PS CS4

    Claustral

      Recently I've noticed that colours of my photos are more saturated when I view them outside of the Photoshop CS4 application. I know this is usually a complicated area, but I can't find anywhere people having trouble with saturation increasing outside PS. It's always decreased saturation, usually because they've forgotten to correctly assign sRGB to an image that was developed in a wider-gamut colour space.


      Some facts. It's CS4 (latest patch) running on Vista 32bit. I don't think it's relevant, but I am running an Eizo screen with EasyPix calibration software (latest driver). The graphic card is also using the latest ATI driver.


      I believe the problem is in CS4 because if I export an image to JPG and view the original PSD in CS4 side-by-side on the same screen with the exported JPG in any other programme, including Windows Explorer, then the JPG looks (notably) more saturated. The same over-saturation is visible for these JPGs if I view them on TVs, my mobile phone and on other computer systems. So it's not hardware or other viewing software.


      The images are worked on in CS4 in the AdobeRGB colour space, then converted to sRGB profile and saved as JPEG. The oversaturation is especially marked in reds, less so in blues and least in greens.


      All ideas are welcome! I've run out of things to test.

        • 1. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
          Gyno-jiz Community Member

          Folks need to convert to sRGB, not assign.

           

          Maybe a screen cap of your color settings, for starters. I'm sure it has to do with your wide-gamut display, and an incorrect setting or profile somewhere.

          • 2. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
            Claustral Community Member

            I have been converting to sRGB just before saving as JPEG.

             

            Here are the colour settings in CS4. I am only interested in presenting images on the web with maximum compatibility. Let's leaving printing calibration for another time

            CS4 colour settings.PNG

            I have also attached a screen shot comparing the colours of the same image. The top version is displayed in Windows Explorer. The other of course is in CS4.

            comparison of jpg vs CS4.JPG

            • 3. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
              emil emil Community Member

              If the color profile of the monitor used by the system, correctly describes how your monitor displays color values and if the image has a profile that describes correctly the intended colors, Photoshop and the other color managed programs will display correctly the intended colors.

              In the Color Management control panel of the system (in your case Vista), you can check what is the monitor profile used by the system.

               

              Also if your example with the screenshot is from a wide gamut monitor this is normal. Internet Explorer like any other non-color managed program cannot display correctly images on wide gamut monitors making them more saturated.

              • 4. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                Claustral Community Member

                Sorry Emil, but you've misunderstood a few things here.

                In the screen dump with the photo, both images are on the same screen at the same time. The problem can't be with Vista's colour management since that would affect both shots. Also note, as I wrote in the OP, that the over-saturation shows up in everything other than CS4, including properly colour managed application such as Firefox and Safari on a Mac.

                Also the screen dump above is with Windows Explorer, not Internet Explorer. It is using Vista's Colour Management.

                 

                The monitor profile I use is the one generated by Eizo EasyPix after each calibration. This particular Eizo screen is not especially wide gamut either.

                • 5. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                  Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                  Read emil's response again.

                   

                  Vista doesn't have system wide color management -- you're seeing the effect because your other apps are NOT color managed.

                  Photoshop is correcting for the display, using your display profile. Most other apps are not correcting for your display.

                   

                  Either you are on a wide gamut display and not understanding color correction/management, or your display profile simply does not match your display.

                  • 6. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                    Claustral Community Member

                    Let me take it another way. The problem is new. It started about 1 month ago. I have no idea what changed at that point but it wasn't the monitor or any other piece of hardware. So the problem can't be with a general issue of wide-gamut displays. (Besides the Eizo SX2461W only extends a bit beyond the sRGB colour space anyway).

                     

                    I want my photos to look good on non-colour managed displays. Pragmatically that means I want them to look good in sRGB, since that is what non-calibrated consumer devices assume. I am not talking about absolute accuracy across that spectrum of kit. I know that's impossible. I just want to get CS4 back to outputting JPGs like it used to, that look reasonably similar on normal consumer equipment to what they look like in CS4. Again, this used to work on this system.

                     

                    And aren't the most recent versions of Firefox, Chrome and Safari all colour managed apps? The fact is though in this case these over-saturated images look identical in FF and in IE8, which suggests to me that the problem isn't with the ICC profile embedded in the JPGs.

                     

                    If the display profile didn't match the display (lets say there is a recent hardware fault in the Spyder calibration device for example) could that explain the images looking different in CS4 and Firefox?

                    • 7. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                      emil emil Community Member

                      Can you please make a screen capture of an image in Photoshop and the latest version of Firefox to see if they are different. But use some image that is easy to test, like this one which you can use.

                      http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2457/testsb.jpg

                      • 8. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                        Claustral Community Member

                        FF (at top) presents the test file with greater saturation than CS4. FF is version 3.6.12

                        comparison of FF vs CS4.JPG

                        • 9. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                          emil emil Community Member

                          There is something wrong with the color management in Firefox. I measured the color values from your screen capture and it is obvious that Firefox tells the video card to display the pure red, green, and blue uncorrected. For example a pure red of  R = 255 G =0 B=0 should not display with these numbers on a wide gamut monitor. The numbers on the Photoshop display appear as it should be. The first two rows from the test image I gave you was created with pure primary colors and they should not be displayed with these numbers on a corrected display.

                          I don't know what is causing the problem but this test shows that it has nothing to do with Photoshop. Even if you don't have Photoshop installed on your computer, the image I gave you should not be displayed like that from Firefox if the color management on your computer is functioning properly.

                          • 10. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                            Claustral Community Member

                            That is certainly a helpful insight. I am less sure though what to do from here though. I have now tried turning off my calibrated profile in the Vista Color Management, and thankfully as expected this made the PS image look the same as the rest of the system - that is to say, just as inaccurate. I  also reinstalled the entire colour calibration system, but this made no difference.

                             

                            For some reason Vista is not using the correct profile (or the colour management isn't working at all) and this fault is bleeding over into other progammes that are expected to be colour managed, such as Firefox. CS4 is the only programme on this system correctly picking up the profile.

                             

                            I realize this effectively means that support ends on this forum, but if anyone has an idea of what I should try next please post.

                             

                            Thanks Emil!

                            • 11. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                              dec9 Community Member

                              Have you tried updating your video card drivers? I know the ATI 10.10 driver set shipped out with a error giving everything a light pink tint to it. Going into the CCC panel and resetting the software to factory specs fix the pink tint. Not sure if that relates to you. But something else to look at.

                              • 12. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                                Claustral Community Member

                                Funny you should mention the pink tint since in trying to fix this bigger problem today I got exactly that! Thanks for the tip!

                                [Update: and it works to for getting rid of the pink! Unfortunately the colour management issue from the OP remains.]

                                • 13. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                                  Noel Carboni Community Member

                                  What you are seeing - more saturated colors from non-color-managed applications, is exactly what you should expect with a wide gamut display.

                                   

                                  If there has been a change, then most likely something was wrong before.

                                   

                                  Think about it...  Your display is capable of displaying a wider gamut than sRGB, so the color-managed application has to reduce the saturation of color values sent to the display so that the smaller gamut profile colors can be accurately shown.

                                   

                                  Trust what you see from your color-managed Photoshop application.  Make your images look right in Photoshop, publish them tagged with the appropriate profile (e.g., sRGB), and things will look good on the most possible displays.

                                   

                                  -Noel

                                  • 14. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                                    Claustral Community Member

                                    Noel, that would be true if it wasn't the intention for the whole Vista environment to be color managed. It seems that programmes such as Firefox and Chrome aren't working correctly together with Vista's colour settings on this PC, and nor is Windows Explorer. As you say CS4 is, and I've worked out that DxO Optics Pro also is, but that's not enough. I am a huge "consumer" of other people's photography and I can't accept that my browsers won't render colours correctly.

                                     

                                    I've decided to upgrade this PC to Win7. There are many reasons to do this, and this peculiar fault was the straw that broke the camel's back.

                                    • 15. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                                      Noel Carboni Community Member

                                      What makes you think the whole of Vista is or should be color-managed?

                                       

                                      I have news for you:  Windows 7 is not much more color-managed than Vista.  A few things, such as thumbnail/preview display in Explorer and Windows Picture Viewer are now color-managed.  There is no "overall system color-management" I'm afraid.  That's practically impossible at this point.

                                       

                                      In practical terms, it works like this:

                                       

                                      1.  The operating system provides a place to store color profiles, and some dialogs for specifying (to color-managed apps) which one is default for the monitor(s) you have.

                                       

                                      2.  The profiling/calibration process provides two things:  Calibration, in the form of tables used by the video card, and profiling, in the form of tables used by color-managed applications.  Generally speaking, the software that comes with the puck (or whatever) sets up the file(s) and defaults described by step 1 properly for your particular system.

                                       

                                      3.  During startup, Windows loads the calibration information from the default monitor profifle into the video card via the video drivers.  After that, you have a gamma-correct display, though individual colors can still be off in non-color-managed applications.

                                       

                                      4.  Color-managed apps load the default color profile specified in step 1 above and use it to transform colors during output to the display.  Those apps also generally interpret colors from an image file/document using a color profile that describes the colors in the document.

                                       

                                      5.  Non-color-managed apps generally simply pump RGB values from the image to the display.  It is these apps, including Internet Explorer, that will show images that look different (e.g., more saturated on a wide gamut monitor) than those shown by Photoshop - even after you upgrade to Windows 7.

                                       

                                      6.  There are some color-managed apps that simply don't work right.  FireFox, at least in some versions, is one of them.  Doing proper color-management is kind of complicated and not every app designer gets it right.  Plus there are sometimes configuration entries that users have to set properly.

                                       

                                      7.  I have heard that Microsoft is implementing color-management in Internet Explorer 9.  I have not confirmed that, however.

                                       

                                      Hope this helps.

                                       

                                      -Noel

                                      • 16. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                                        emil emil Community Member

                                        I would highly recommend upgrading to Windows 7. I have a wide gamut monitor too and before switching to Windows 7, with Vista I had similar problems like yours - different color managed programs using the same color profile differently. Although my case was not as severe as yours, it was harder to troubleshoot as all color managed programs were attempting some color management but giving different results from using the same profile making it hard to know which one is more or less correct. I never found or fixed the problem on Vista. After switching to Windows 7, the color management is working rock solid - the way it is intended to work. All color managed programs are producing consistent and nice colors. Also unlike Vista almost every program from Microsoft that comes with the system installation, except Internet Explorer, is color managed. And the next version of Internet Explorer which is about to be out anytime will be color managed. In fact I'm running out of places where I can see a non - color managed program on Windows 7 and would like to have some for testing purposes.

                                        • 17. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                                          Claustral Community Member

                                          Thanks for that encouraging report!  

                                           

                                          One thing I discovered in my fault searching was that Google Chrome is not colour managed on Vista! I was stunned. So see if that is correctly managed on Win7; it might be the test program you need.

                                           

                                          This page helped me test: http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/color-spaces-page2

                                          • 18. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                                            emil emil Community Member

                                            Claustral wrote:

                                             

                                            Thanks for that encouraging report!  

                                             

                                            One thing I discovered in my fault searching was that Google Chrome is not colour managed on Vista! I was stunned. So see if that is correctly managed on Win7; ...

                                            No, Google Chrome is not color managed, probably this will change in the future versions.

                                            • 19. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                                              Photo Nopoulis Community Member

                                              I have the same problem of increased saturation of images. The increased saturation is definitely a problem when I open the RAW image in ACR and edit in Photoshop CS5, then view the image in IE8 or Google Chrome, for example. Am using the sRGB color space, and running Vista 32-bit, as is the person who started this thread. My monitor is color calibrated using hardware and software.

                                               

                                              Anyone else having this problem? The difference in saturation is substantial; people look sunburned and other colors are oversaturated when viewed in IE8, Google Chrome, Microsoft Paint or Microsoft Office Picture Manager vs in Photoshop, Windows Photo Gallery, or any software with proper color management, such as Canon's line (DPP or ZoomBrowser EX). The reason for the concern is I'm distributing photos via SmugMug, Flickr, and other browser-based methods, and therefore the resulting increased saturation is a real problem because the colors are substantially misrepresented in IE8 or the other programs listed.

                                               

                                              The increased color saturation definitely occurs in photos opened in ACR and edited in Photoshop (CS5 and apparently CS4), and I also see the increased saturation in images processed by Canon's DPP when viewed in IE8, Google Chrome, etc. In fact, I see it in unprocessed JPGs straight from point and shoot cameras. It is most noticeable in close-up photos of people (sunbaked skin tones) or large areas of green or orange, to my eyes, but all colors suffer increased saturation. Any insights?

                                              • 20. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                                                Noel Carboni Community Member

                                                Photo Nopoulis wrote:

                                                 

                                                I have the same problem of increased saturation of images. The increased saturation is definitely a problem when I open the RAW image in ACR and edit in Photoshop CS5, then view the image in IE8 or Google Chrome, for example. Am using the sRGB color space, and running Vista 32-bit, as is the person who started this thread. My monitor is color calibrated using hardware and software.

                                                 

                                                Sounds like your system is working just as it should, assuming you have a wide gamut monitor.

                                                 

                                                Non-color-managed (or partially color-managed) applications will of course show different colors than color-managed apps such as Photoshop.  That's the difference you're seeing.

                                                 

                                                I suggest you go read up on color-management, and how it works.

                                                 

                                                -Noel

                                                • 21. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                                                  Claustral Community Member

                                                  I found the problem was less (though not completely solved) after moving to Windows 7.

                                                  • 22. Re: Colors more saturated outside PS CS4
                                                    Claustral Community Member

                                                    This is a good reason to use a browser with color management. Oddly enough,  Google Chrome isn't one of them. Try Firefox 4.x or IE9.