1 2 Previous Next 63 Replies Latest reply: May 30, 2011 4:36 AM by Keith_Reeder Go to original post RSS
      • 40. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
        Jeff Schewe Community Member

        JayS In CT wrote:

         

        That said, within this forum there have been numerous times when large numbers of individuals have been able to confirm an error, at times on one OS or another, and other times on both..  There's never been a suggestion from the Adobe folks that we should each write up the same problem, and fact is, I didn't think they wanted that.

         

        Define "a large numbers of individuals"...is it to the point where a large percentage of a platform's users are reporting the same issue?

         

        I would suggest it is indeed more useful to report those problems than to assume that the issue has been reported "enough" and not add to the overall emphasis of a particular issue by adding to the collective voice.

         

        The phrase "squeaky wheel get the grease" comes to mind.

         

        Depending on the forcefulness and the accuracy of the reported issue do you really think it's in Adobe's best interest in ignoring a large % of the user base? No, it's not.

         

        A lot depends on the frequency of the reported issue and how mission critical the issue is deemed to be. There are of course other factors involved; is the issue easy or hard to deal with? Is the issue contributing to data loss? Is the issue impacting a large % of users (this is a much bigger factor than most people realize)?

         

        However, NOT reporting an issue, for whatever reason, is short changing the entire process.

         

        Again, I will tell you that the more people who report an issue (and the more important the issue is deemed to be in part based on the numbers of users impacted) the greater the likelihood the issue will be resolved.

        • 41. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
          Lee Jay-ZyZk56 Community Member

          TK2142 wrote:

           

          Lee Jay wrote:

           

          I would want you to think that you probably have no idea of the complexities of code you have no access to. 

           

          Lee, I've written complex software in teams myself. I teach software engineering. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

           

          Not without the code you don't.

          • 42. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
            areohbee Community Member

            All of this I understand - I develop software (and fix bugs) for a living...

             

            I find it totally reasonable that some bugs persist across multiple dot releases - Adobe has to have priorities...

             

            What I dont get is why certain bugs, where certain means: not all, but some that are particularly glaring, and in my guesstimation - relatively easy to fix) that started in Lr1 still exist in Lr3.4RC.

             

            I'm beginning to have some deja vu here - we've been through all of this before.

             

            Its not that some bugs aren't fixed that vexes me, its the ones that keep getting left behind that seem like they really shouldn't be, that is perplexing.

             

            And neither you nor anybody else is going to convince me nor Thomas that fixing certain keywords-with-spaces problems or stacking in collections, etc., might cause irreparable damage... - source code or none...

             

            I try to give Adobe the benefit of the doubt - but they make it really hard in some cases...

             

            Maybe Adobe has a bug in their website and most bug reports never make it to them - that must be it (how would we know? - how would they know?)...

             

            R

            • 43. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
              JayS In CT Community Member

              Jeff Schewe wrote:

               

              JayS In CT wrote:

               

              That said, within this forum there have been numerous times when large numbers of individuals have been able to confirm an error, at times on one OS or another, and other times on both..  There's never been a suggestion from the Adobe folks that we should each write up the same problem, and fact is, I didn't think they wanted that.

               

              Define "a large numbers of individuals"...is it to the point where a large percentage of a platform's users are reporting the same issue?

               

              I would suggest it is indeed more useful to report those problems than to assume that the issue has been reported "enough" and not add to the overall emphasis of a particular issue by adding to the collective voice.

               

              The phrase "squeaky wheel get the grease" comes to mind.

               

              Depending on the forcefulness and the accuracy of the reported issue do you really think it's in Adobe's best interest in ignoring a large % of the user base? No, it's not.

               

              A lot depends on the frequency of the reported issue and how mission critical the issue is deemed to be. There are of course other factors involved; is the issue easy or hard to deal with? Is the issue contributing to data loss? Is the issue impacting a large % of users (this is a much bigger factor than most people realize)?

               

              However, NOT reporting an issue, for whatever reason, is short changing the entire process.

               

              Again, I will tell you that the more people who report an issue (and the more important the issue is deemed to be in part based on the numbers of users impacted) the greater the likelihood the issue will be resolved.

               

              Jeff,

               

              The point wasn't "how" large, but more the fact that I don't ever recall a significant "everyone send in a bug report" type effort ever suggested here in the forum.  There have been numerous times when the suggestion was made to a thread originator that they should file a bug report, but I don't recall ever seeing a single thread, even those where folks from Adobe participated, where a call went out for everyone with the problem to write up a report.  I'm well aware of the "squeakly wheel" phrase, and based on what you're suggesting, should be implemented now as the status quo anytime a number (whatever that number may be) of folks hit an issue..  The call should be, "everyone with this issue, here's the address for the bug report"..  As I said, perhap naively, I assumed that when a thread about a particular issue was embedded in a problem report (which I've done) that the length of the thread may carry some weight.. From what you're saying, it's the weight of all the problem reports written..  good to know for the future.

               

              Jay S.

              • 44. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                Jasonized Community Member

                Sadly, I have to agree with some of both view points.

                 

                I once got handed a bug that took me three weeks to find.  15 minutes to fix.  So yes, the bug was "easy to fix"...  finding it was the hard part, and I was the third engineer to get handed the bug, after the others gave up in disgust.

                 

                On the other hand, not having a customer viewable bug tracking means lots of people stumble over the same problem, post here for help (or not, not even knowing this exists), call customer support (nope, we've never heard of that.  Must be an hardware/OS/plugin problem...), or just quit or stay frustrated.

                 

                Having a place where we could see bug reports and status (reported/confirmed/assigned/future/circular-filed) would at least cut down on some of the frustration, and we would actually know they at least have the report...

                 

                on the other hand, having the number of bugs visible is a negative marketing point.  So they are not going to make them visible.  Heck, they don't even ackowledge the bug report, much less post them!  I was absolutely AMAZED when I filed a bug report for Photoshop.  Not only did I get an acknowledgement of the bug, it was by a real person!   With a reasoned response to my bug report.  So I know they _can_ do it...

                 

                So Jeff, the fact that the LR team can't get it together doesn't mean that it's Adobe policy, since the PS team can do it, it must mean they just don't...  Which doesn't make any of us feel better about it, squeeky wheels/sand in the gears or not.

                 

                Cheers!

                • 45. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                  areohbee Community Member

                  I believe the total number of bugs fixed in the SDK since Lr3.0 is zero. (and thats not because there aren't any). Nor has there been any update to the API doc nor SDK doc to mention the things Adobe knows about that dont work.

                   

                  And, other than a few howdy-doodies by Chet Drarvik in the beginning (Eric Scouten's successor), the total number of responses from Adobe on that forum since Eric Scouten left is 0.

                   

                  And some of these bugs would unquestionably be easy to fix - no doubt about it.

                   

                  Definitely lots of room for improvement in this department... - a little communique at a minimum, but some SDK bug fixes would be nice too...

                   

                  Rob

                  • 46. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                    +becs Adobe Employee

                    Hi tqutqu,

                     

                    We've fixed the bug with entering keywords with spaces.  It will be in the final Lightroom 3.4 release.

                     

                    Regards,

                    Becky

                    • 47. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                      imajez Community Member

                      +becs wrote:

                       

                      Hi tqutqu,

                       

                      We've fixed the bug with entering keywords with spaces.  It will be in the final Lightroom 3.4 release.

                       

                      Regards,

                      Becky

                      I hope that pleases tqutqu and it also shows Adobe are paying attention to these 'user-to-user' forums.

                      • 48. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                        areohbee Community Member

                        becs+

                         

                        That's good news (although I no longer use keywords with spaces...)

                         

                        In case you haven't noticed, "we" like hearing from Adobe employees .

                         

                        Hope y'all are striking a good balance between new Lr4 dev and bug fixes.

                         

                        R

                        • 49. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                          TK2142 Community Member

                          +becs wrote:

                           

                          We've fixed the bug with entering keywords with spaces.  It will be in the final Lightroom 3.4 release.

                          Thanks for letting us know Becky, much appreciated!

                          • 50. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                            tgutgu Community Member

                            +becs wrote:

                             

                            Hi tqutqu,

                             

                            We've fixed the bug with entering keywords with spaces.  It will be in the final Lightroom 3.4 release.

                             

                            Regards,

                            Becky

                            Wow, great ! It really proves the opposite to what some people in the performance feedback thread (most notably the "whitedog") claim about the Lightroom team.

                             

                            Sometimes I belong to a group of notorious people, who like to remind publicly about still outstanding things to get at least a reaction. I wasn't so much concerned to learn exactly, when the issue would be fixed, but if it's gonna addressed at all.

                             

                            You gave the answer, thanks a lot. If you want me to test the fix beforehand, just let me know.

                             

                            I will let my friend, who refused to upgrade because of the keyword issue, know that the problem is probably solved in LR 3.4.

                             

                            Kind regards

                             

                            Thomas

                            • 51. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                              tgutgu Community Member

                              Well, I never claimed that the Lightroom team does not pay attention to what happens here. My point was more that once they acknowledge a bug, that you have no clue, what and if anything will be done subesequently. The other quibble was, that sometimes there is a tendency to implement things inconsequently, such as the support for keywords with spaces.

                               

                              Thomas

                               

                              imajez wrote:

                               

                              +becs wrote:

                               

                              Hi tqutqu,

                               

                              We've fixed the bug with entering keywords with spaces.  It will be in the final Lightroom 3.4 release.

                               

                              Regards,

                              Becky

                              I hope that pleases tqutqu and it also shows Adobe are paying attention to these 'user-to-user' forums.

                              • 52. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                                hillrg Community Member
                                function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                areohbee wrote:

                                 

                                I believe the total number of bugs fixed in the SDK since Lr3.0 is zero. (and thats not because there aren't any). Nor has there been any update to the API doc nor SDK doc to mention the things Adobe knows about that dont work.

                                 

                                And, other than a few howdy-doodies by Chet Drarvik in the beginning (Eric Scouten's successor), the total number of responses from Adobe on that forum since Eric Scouten left is 0.

                                 

                                And some of these bugs would unquestionably be easy to fix - no doubt about it.

                                 

                                Definitely lots of room for improvement in this department... - a little communique at a minimum, but some SDK bug fixes would be nice too...

                                 

                                Rob

                                 

                                I gave up working in javascript with the CS1/2/3/4/5 SDK (Photoshop and Bridge) after it became obvious to me adobe do not provide timely support and fixes, so this is nothing new.  The contrast to Microsoft was sharp, where I often saw a 2 week turn-around after reporting a bug for VBA.

                                • 53. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                                  areohbee Community Member

                                  hillrg wrote:

                                   

                                  The contrast to Microsoft was sharp, where I often saw a 2 week turn-around after reporting a bug for VBA.

                                   

                                  Kinda surprises me that Microsoft would be any better. I try to give Adobe the benefit of the doubt (imagining them busting their humps for a killer Lr4 - no time for bug fixes or talk...), but they do make it a challenge sometimes... For me and some, just a little bit of comm. can go a long way - a reply on the forum or an updated doc or a quick web-page with some pertinent info... I would really love to see that "Pertinent Issues" page, but I'm guessing that wont be happening soon...

                                   

                                  Tah-tah,

                                  Rob

                                  • 54. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                                    tgutgu Community Member

                                    I want to raise this topic again, because it clearly shows that soemthing is wrong with Adobe's bug fixing policy.

                                     

                                    Here is an extract from an entry of the Lightroom Killer Tips web site by Matt Kloslowski.

                                     

                                    Hey folks. Last week I mentioned a rare bug in Lightroom 3.4 that had to  do with JPEG photos. It only affected a very small amount of people  with a certain camera though. Nonetheless, if you were one of those  people then it was definitely a problem. Anyway, Adobe has quickly  released an update that addresses the issue. It’s available for download  now in Lightroom under the Help menu. Also, you can read more about it  over at Tom Hogarty’s blog (Lightroom Product Manager).

                                     

                                     

                                    So a bug, which apparently only affects a very small amount of people with a certain camera, gets fixed within one week, but others, which affect everybody (!) (adjustment slider bugs, keywords with spaces bugs, just to give examples) take months if not years to become addressed or are simply ignored.

                                     

                                    Is this the way to conduct this? Mr. Kloslowski has a close relation to the Kelby Group (which certainly has influences in the promotion of Lightroom). Do bugs reported or "mentioned" by such individuals have priority status?

                                     

                                    I can understand that bugs, which can lead to data corruption, are fixed quickly. However, I can't understand that bugs that only affect a few are fixed with lightning speed, whereas reproducible malfunctions affecting all users of the product stay unfixed from one release to another.

                                     

                                    Doesn't sound transparent to us customers. Please, management, explain!

                                    • 56. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                                      Lee Jay-ZyZk56 Community Member

                                      tgutgu wrote:


                                      I can understand that bugs, which can lead to data corruption, are fixed quickly.

                                       

                                      Then why did you ask the question?

                                      • 57. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                                        clvrmnky Community Member

                                        tgutgu wrote:

                                         

                                        I want to raise this topic again, because it clearly shows that soemthing is wrong with Adobe's bug fixing policy.

                                         

                                        Here is an extract from an entry of the Lightroom Killer Tips web site by Matt Kloslowski.

                                         

                                        Hey folks. Last week I mentioned a rare bug in Lightroom 3.4 that had to  do with JPEG photos. It only affected a very small amount of people  with a certain camera though. Nonetheless, if you were one of those  people then it was definitely a problem. Anyway, Adobe has quickly  released an update that addresses the issue. It’s available for download  now in Lightroom under the Help menu. Also, you can read more about it  over at Tom Hogarty’s blog (Lightroom Product Manager).

                                         

                                         

                                        So a bug, which apparently only affects a very small amount of people with a certain camera, gets fixed within one week, but others, which affect everybody (!) (adjustment slider bugs, keywords with spaces bugs, just to give examples) take months if not years to become addressed or are simply ignored.

                                         

                                        Defect scheduling is different for different shops, but one thing is nearly always the same. Any feature that risks data corruption or data loss through normal operation is always considered serious, even if it could only affect a small subset of the user base. This is one of the cases where an emergency point release is warranted.

                                         

                                        So, you issue a public statement regarding the fault (as Adobe did -- it showed up on Twitter and my RSS feed) so the user base can determine how at risk they are, and you get a fix out the door ASAP.

                                         

                                        This defect was one of those cases. There is nothing sinister going on here. This is the way enterprise software development works.

                                        • 58. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                                          Lee Jay-ZyZk56 Community Member

                                          http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2011/05/potential-jpeg-bug-in-lightroom-3-4-and-ca mera-raw-6-4.html

                                           

                                          "... the bug could cause image corruption which falls within our highest severity category of bugs."

                                           

                                          "Rare bugs like this make it quite difficult to pinpoint the source of  the problem or even create a reproducible scenario but thanks to Doug’s  persistence we were able to track down this bug quickly."

                                           

                                          So, it's a high-priority because it causes data corruption, and it was handed to them by a user that could isolate a reproducable case of a rare bug.  High priority + reproducable case = fixed quickly.

                                           

                                          Another reason they might not fix a bug quickly is if fixing it has the potential to spawn a large number of new bugs, or even a new category of bugs, especially if there's an easy workaround, it affects very few people and/or it doesn't put data at risk.  Bugs like that tend to wait for a major release.

                                          • 59. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                                            tgutgu Community Member

                                            Lee Jay wrote:

                                             

                                            tgutgu wrote:


                                            I can understand that bugs, which can lead to data corruption, are fixed quickly.

                                             

                                            Then why did you ask the question?

                                            Because the other part of the question isn't clear.

                                             

                                            Reproducible malfunctions (known since a long time), which affect every users (not only a small group owning a particular camera) aren't fixed. Why?

                                            • 60. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                                              ssprengel CommunityMVP

                                              Bugs causing less damage are fixed with more quality control and come out on a normal schedule.

                                              • 61. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                                                Lee Jay-ZyZk56 Community Member

                                                tgutgu wrote:


                                                Reproducible malfunctions (known since a long time), which affect every users (not only a small group owning a particular camera) aren't fixed. Why?

                                                 

                                                First of all, this doesn't affect all users.  Second, like I said, there are other considerations such as the possibility that other bugs will be created if this one is fixed.

                                                 

                                                Also, they've opened a new system to help them with both bugs and feature requests from the public, and it's already paying dividends.

                                                • 62. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                                                  tgutgu Community Member

                                                  ssprengel wrote:

                                                   

                                                  Bugs causing less damage are fixed with more quality control and come out on a normal schedule.

                                                  Is it "normal schedule" to take almost a year, such as keyword completion to get right. Is it normal schedule that trivial stuff (from the coding point of view) such as the sliders problem (which does work on the exposure slider, why not on the others), takes months?

                                                  • 63. Re: LR 3.4 RC: Adobe bug fixing policy
                                                    Keith_Reeder Community Member

                                                    Assuming that Adobe's bug scheduling policy doesn't exist purely to annoy you, Thomas, isn't it perfectly reasonable that relatively trivial bugs like the sliders problem (which is surely trivial to me - I never even realised there was such a thing as "scrubby sliders", much less that there was a bug in the functionality) are going to be pushed back to the bottom of the pile as new, more serious, potential showstopper bugs emerge?

                                                     

                                                    In my own past experience (like everyone else here it would seem, I used to work in IT, as a system designer for some of the the largest UK Government departments) even "easy" code fixes required considerable resource expenditure at the testing stage - identifying and implementing a code fix is only a small part of the delivery of a solution, and Adobe's resources aren't endless.

                                                    1 2 Previous Next