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1. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
markerline Jun 7, 2011 12:51 AM (in response to Powered by Design)That's only about twice as wide and 3 times as long.
If you're trying to shoot something like the Matrix where Neo is shown the inside of the Matrix and everything they can call into play then I would suggest renting a studio and painting the walls, ceiling, and floor green to make a green screen that wraps around the subject then getting fancy with greenscreen on the computer to edit out the background and replace it with whatever you are seeking to fill the shot with.
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2. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Bill Hunt Jun 7, 2011 8:10 AM (in response to Powered by Design)GLenn,
For large, and also multi-wall backgrounds, I second the rec. to rent a studio with a full cyc, and paint. Though we were doing stills, and not video, we had a 20' back wall, that was 15' high, and had a 4' radius to the floor, and 3' radius to one side wall. The floor, seamless and painted, had a 25' max runout. We did have a hidden 120V outlet, that was used, when we had to power up computers, etc., as this was in the pre-Photoshop days, and power cords thad to be eliminated from view, as the bleach-dye work to do so on the film was expensive.
For portable backgrounds, we used Savage seamless background papers, in 9' rolls mostly. For black and bright white, we also had 12' rolls. I also had a large, black velvet background cloth made, and still have it packed in a duffle bag somewhere. We bought our Savage from a local store, but here is one online: http://www.adorama.com/SearchSite/Default.aspx?searchinfo=savage%20seamless%20paper&gclid= CJqr27-IpKkCFQcBbAod3jKGtw
Good luck,
Hunt
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3. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 7, 2011 11:19 AM (in response to Bill Hunt)clay coat ( claycoat ) is black one side, white the other side. opaque ( light wont go through ). white for background or bounce, black to block out light or negative fill. seamless. with grommets.
this is what a 20 x 20 foot white bleached muslin looks like regarding the grommets...( and reinforced edge )...
20 x 20 is probably too big for you , plus it is just white....both sidesThis particular one in photo is stained from water and would have to be washed with bleach for you to use for your purpose. For bounce its OK as is, but for background the stain is a problem ( new these are about $1600 ).... but if you want it you can pm me and I'll mail it to you. I don't use it and I have a 12 x12 and 8 x 8 that I can use instead...and I can borrow anything I want here.... Is heavy though, and huge...don't think its good for your purpose.
This is what grommets look like
The claycoat ( 12 x 12 ) can be seen if you google it ....here is a place to buy....
http://www.filmandvideolighting.com/12clblphwhm1.html
use pipe size and fitting size of 1 1/2" schedule 40. Thats the inside diameter and wall thickness.
cut, mount etc as needed for your space...but be aware of the dimensions of your claycoat...with grommets and strings....
I think if I was you, I would simply hang white and black fabric from "ceiling " ( not claycoat -- just heavy fabric with grommets on top ) in a horseshoe shape ..and use pipe or something on the bottom to stretch it " down" fairly tight ( get out wrinkles etc )... you can put curves in your own pipe with a tool from hardware store for the corners...do in driveway or something.. mark out the angle you need on cement and bend pipe to that angle.
top down view of little cyc type thing.... you will see where the stuff meets floor if you dont curve the bottom with a real cyc and paint it etc.... so just make it really "neat " looking with wrapping it around pipe on bottom ( spring clips etc ).
good luck !
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4. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 7, 2011 11:30 AM (in response to able123)ps...
if you hang both black and white material from ceiling..there's a way to use pulleys and rope ( like #8 sash cord ) to raise and lower the one in "front" to reveal the one in back...so you can switch them out fairly easily...but you probably need a couple people to pull the ropes so it goes up and down evenly ( like each person pulls on 2 ropes ( 2 pulleys ) each....).... there are probably some samples of this type rig in drapery , window treatments etc ...and you can figure out how NOT to have ropes in your shot in front of the fabric...
also, in lieu of pipe to stretch to floor....you can use wood but need something to really grab the "floor" tight... like use tap con and hammer drill to put some anchors into floor ( or shoot it in )..
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6. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 7, 2011 12:08 PM (in response to able123)ultrabounce is very similar to claycoat....white one side, matte black the other.....
this image at this link is a "bounce". the light is coming from below and bouncing off the white....
with this material ( as with claycoat ) you would need to physically reverse the material to be black instead of white.
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7. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Powered by Design Jun 7, 2011 4:43 PM (in response to Bill Hunt)This will just be a standing in one place talking shots and still pictures.
I already have the 53" x 12 yards Savage roll and it worked fine but was limiting due to its narrowness.
Here was a sample shot, you can see how if the arms move any farther out then its off the white. At least with 107" it will give twice the room.
Right now im thinking about buying from Adorama:
http://www.adorama.com/SA107121.html for white.
and
http://www.adorama.com/SA1071220.html for black.
I was was wondering if anyone had any ideas for a better place or cheaper place to get the paper.
Thanks: GLenn
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8. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Powered by Design Jun 8, 2011 4:28 PM (in response to able123)Thanks for offering Rod but im fine.
Were getting close to building the new set so im just getting things in order again.
I have all my greenscreen tarps but I dont really want to do any greenscreen.
I watched this video on lighting white and it made me want a mannequin head for setting up shots. Im not going to get one but I wanted one none the less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8-9BAcBY2U
Since your the light man Rod.
What is your take on using light meters ?
I like this video from Eric Franks from when he was still on Digital Juice TV
http://www.digitaljuice.com/djtv/detail.aspx?quality=sm&sid=147&sortby=&rvid=0&page=1&rpid =0&swid=0
I was wondering if you think I should look into getting one. Dont have any brands in mind.
GLenn
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9. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Bill Hunt Jun 7, 2011 6:02 PM (in response to Powered by Design)Glenn,
Where are you located? That might tell the tell. Where I have lived, New Orleans, Denver and Phoenix, USA, I have just ordered what I needed from a local photo-supply store.
When I moved ot Phoenix, I gave away maybe 50 lightly used rolls of 108" rolls, to a local "art school," rather than move them. It seems that I had two each 120" whites and blacks too.
Good luck,
Hunt
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10. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Powered by Design Jun 7, 2011 8:42 PM (in response to Bill Hunt)Im in Modesto, California Bill
I just called one of the local Camera shops and they have 107" rolls of black and white paper for $80 each, that is $8 less then the online place once shipping is added.
I might try looking at other local places to see if I can get a better deal but for now this looks like the way to go.
GLenn
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11. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 7, 2011 8:51 PM (in response to Bill Hunt)Oh... thought you were talking about the 3 camera thing with 2 people etc...for the background...
I agree with the others that use the savage seamless rolls.. .thats what I use and have ( almost 10' in length ) and can buy at a good photo supply place. Make sure they were stored standing up instead of laying flat or you get "wavy wrinkles" in it ....
you use it the same way as your sample except its longer...
for light meters...this info might help you out... I use an analog spot ( pentax )...old minolta ( got at KEH ( ex + rating ) flash/ambient ( just put on cine mark for shutter speed, which is roughly 50/sec ) for 24fps 180deg shutter ( normal )..and got a minolta color meter ..also from KEH. I had to send that to CA to be calibrated ...the pentax was new, and the minolta I just compared to a couple other meters and adjusted manually...
http://www.keh.com/camera/Light-Meters-Light-and-Exposure-Meters/1/sku-GM709990252580?r=FE
pentax spot meter
not featured here..but other spot meters are... I bought mine new from b&h
http://www.keh.com/search?store=camera&brand=Brand&category=Class&k=spot-meter&s=1&bcode=B rand&ccode=Class&grade=Grade&sprice=0&eprice=0&r=SE&eminolta color meter
http://www.keh.com/camera/Light-Meters-Light-and-Exposure-Meters/1/sku-GM7099902624904?r=F E
to calibrate send to Light Metric, 7095 Hollywod Blvd, Ste 550, Los Angeles, CA 90028kodak color and grey scale
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/26662-REG/Kodak_1527654_Color_Separation_Guide_and.h tml
18% grey card
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/101853-REG/Delta_22030_Gray_Card_8x10_1.html
nowadays people use the meters but also the monitors at DIT station ( and scopes ) to get exposure and light set ( tweak it )..with live feed from camera to computer ( monitors ).... if no live feed than just the meters... and they shoot the grey scale and color separation stuff at head of new rolls if film , or at head of new scene on digital. nobody uses zebras.
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12. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 7, 2011 8:59 PM (in response to able123)note about cc with color meter
the back of the meter has cc stuff on it for daylight balance etc.... and below is the rough equiv from cc to film gels...
eg. we use cto, ctb ( color temperature orange ( full = 85 filter basically ) and color temperature blue )... the orange for daylight to tungsten, the blue for tungsten to daylight...
you can get sample swatches of film cc gels from lee filters and rosco filters free...just go online and ask for them...and you can put those swatches right over the lens of your color meter and take reading to test the color correction...
rough equiv table...
so roughly +13 = full and -10 = full ...you'll see what I mean when you get the meter and look at the chart on back and then compare to film gels
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13. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 7, 2011 9:01 PM (in response to Powered by Design)-----------
they have 107" rolls of black and white paper for $80 each
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thats same here in ny area...roughly same price
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14. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 7, 2011 9:08 PM (in response to able123)wanna laugh ?? this is grey seamless ( pretty dark grey ) in background....which I had stored on floor so it got wavy from sitting on side instead of storing it standing up ...( didnt have room big enough to store it standing up )....
I bought some strobes for still stuff and had never used strobes before so I invited someone over to shoot some "tests" ( you know me, I'm forever testing stuff )... and when I saw the seamless was bad news I just hit it with a strobe .....grey now white and no wavy stuff ! magic !
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15. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Powered by Design Jun 7, 2011 9:09 PM (in response to able123)Thanks Rod.
I think im not going to get a light meter.
I can just take enough pictures and dial in what works since the set will be the same each time.
On the other hand im thinking about getting a new still camera.
My current one is a Canon SX100 8.0MP and I dont like how it focuses.
I dont know what im going to get since I dont want to spend to much but I want better control over focus.
I wish I could hook up allot of small cheap cameras and have them all zoom in tight and take a shot all at the same time and use Photoshop to stitch them back together. That way there would be allot of info for zooming in and still be perfet.
Kinda how the GigaPan system works.
GLenn
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16. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
shooternz Jun 7, 2011 10:55 PM (in response to Powered by Design)Here is what I recommend to you.
http://www.colorama-photo.com/paper-backgrounds.php
Been stock in trade for years to photographers.
Tip: Your BG should always be as wide as possible... so you can separate and light your subject properly.
You do not want your subject too close to the BG.
Reason is that foregrounds and BGs need separate lighting. ( its abot controlling the levels /tones). That creates the separation.
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17. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 8, 2011 8:05 AM (in response to shooternz)Glenn, you dont want me to recommend digital camera. I suck at figuring out whats good etc. For example, one day I went into B&H and looked at stuff at the counters and decided on a point and shoot camera ( so I could shoot quick little shots on set without flash and keep camera in pocket ( small ) while I work.
So I got this one which had just come out
I bought the camera, a charger, 3 extra batteries, a bigger flash card for storage and the total came to about $1000. About a week later dust from my pocket got into the viewfinder and that little silver ring around the lens fell off... But it still worked OK. Then another week later the new powershot S something came out. And about 4 months later some other stuff came out... like 5 megapixels instead of 2.1
My camera was now worth about 25 cents and the trade in value was probably " you pay us to throw this out and dispose of batteries for you and we'll take it "
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18. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Powered by Design Jun 8, 2011 4:27 PM (in response to able123)Thats funny Rod.
I had that exact camera once too.
I gave it to my girlfriends dad a long time ago.
Tech moves so fast if you wait the NEW thing is always coming out. But of course then you never get anything. lol
GLenn
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19. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Powered by Design Jun 8, 2011 4:38 PM (in response to shooternz)Thanks for the tip Shooternz.
In that first YouTube video on lighting white the guy uses a doll and he shows how the light will bounce if your to close to the wall like you say.
Thanks: Glenn
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20. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 8, 2011 5:00 PM (in response to Powered by Design)Glenn,
hehe... so you know how it is.. I tried to give mine away to my niece and she guffawed ( almost choked on some food ).
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I had that exact camera once too.
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I still have it. Used it to make that pic above of the white muslin to show you the stained 20 x 20 ....
ps... if you're not going to get a light meter just keep in mind the fun little tech notes and cartoons on film boxes...
Remember ??? picure of yellow sunshine, picture of yellow sunshine with cloud in front, picture of cloud, picture of rain and picture of rain with cloud ??? with F stops below each one ??
its a little known fact that some of the best DP's in the world have those things ( cut out from box ) in their wallets...just in case !
hehe...still works ( but you have to convert the iso and shutter spd )
my personal favorite is the yellow sun with cloud !
pps I bet shooternz has one in HIS wallet !
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21. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
shooternz Jun 8, 2011 8:04 PM (in response to able123)pps I bet shooternz has one in HIS wallet !
Not any more but years ago I had them on my Spectra pouch. Some smart-arrrsse camera assistant stuck them there!
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22. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 8, 2011 9:29 PM (in response to shooternz)shooternz,
haha...I think I still have a kodak book with all that stuff in it , and one of the darkroom books for developing and printing ( mixing chemicals, times, etc -- doubt half the films and papers are made anymore ).
Here's the NEW and improved exposure guide from our friendly icons at the forum ! Who can communicate without them ?
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23. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 9, 2011 10:49 AM (in response to able123)UG ! Its hot here and not fun to be outside... which prompted me to make a new F Stop " icon" ... which can be used in various deserts throughout the world ... or in NYC right now... This can be used when you notice your skin starts smoking after 1 minute in the sun.
suggested you wear at least ND9 sunglasses in this situation....
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24. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Powered by Design Jun 9, 2011 6:45 PM (in response to able123)Wow those temps have been hot over there in NY.
Its been in the 80's here. It is usually very Hot here at this time of year so im enjoying the peace while it lasts.
I decided to just get the paper at the local camera shop.
It came out to be $86 for the 107" roll of Super White.
The brand was RPS Studio.
http://rpsstudiolighting.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_75_76&products_id=12 66
Im sure it will be fine. Its twice the width so it should make it better so I can move farther away from the back while still having room for the shot. These will just be single person shots so it should be fine now.
Like you said Rod, they DID have the paper stored upright so no wavy lines. Thanks for that TIP.
I looked at cameras they had there but they didnt really have that many that I was interested in.
They had a Canon EOS Rebal T3i that looked nice.
http://usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_rebel_t3i_18_55mm_is_i i_kit
Not sure what to go with yet though. Might look again this weekend.
GLenn
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25. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 9, 2011 7:18 PM (in response to Powered by Design)Good going on getting the paper.. that will be plenty
If you scroll down on this link you'll see that camera in the status of LN ( Like New )....which means it was in a box at store and someone opened it to show a customer the camera....thats it.... never used etc... slightly less expensive maybe from KEH
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26. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Bill Hunt Jun 9, 2011 7:53 PM (in response to Powered by Design)For upright storage, we built a rack with 1 x 2's, and 3/4" dowells, so that all could be stored upright. The main storage area was for the 9', and then we had about 8 for the 10' rolls, as they were also larger in diameter, longer and heavy.
Wish that I had save some of mine, as I'd have gifted them to you, but when we liquidated the studio, there was just not storage space. Same for the 50 sheets of various Formicas (and Wilson Arts) sheets. Hated to see some of those go, as they were long out of the catalog, and no longer available. We had a monster collection, plus sheets of plexiglas, that were quite interesting - one was a single-surface mirror finish. Just hope that the kids at the art school appreciated that stuff - probably $ 125,000 cost for all of it.
Good luck,
Hunt
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27. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Powered by Design Jun 9, 2011 9:52 PM (in response to Bill Hunt)Thanks for the link Rod.
That was a big collection you had going there Bill.
I too had the last 53" roll hooked up with a rod through the roll and could just unroll it when using it. Its nice to have it ready to go.
I decided on just white and not to do black. Got to keep it simple as possible.
Got to clean my lenses. Let them sit uncovered after a move we did. I always wanted to buy a big gun safe to put them in. Got to put that on my list of things to do. Wouldn't want someone to break in and take them.
GLenn
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28. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 10, 2011 8:01 AM (in response to Powered by Design)Glenn,
Would send you black duvatyne but its only about 5 feet wide and a challenge to staple it together where seam looks good... hard to do...and is just better to get something wider... unless you are some kinda sewing genius to make your own "good" seams.
http://www.filmtools.com/duvetyne.html
Some help - knowing what you need and unable to forward to you. If you want to keep that roll from rolling out once its up ( lock it so it doesnt keep feeding out ) ..you can use a couple medium springclips on the ends and if you put on top ( above pipe or dowel ) it wont harm the edge of paper...
you know, the weight of the paper thats reeled out down to floor will want to keep pulling more paper off roll.. so this stops it...2 cheapo springclips...
Bill,
You know what drives ME nuts ? I work on jobs with all this stuff available, and then I get home and want to do some simple little still shot or whatever .. and I have NOTHING ! no grip stands, no space to shoot, no lights ( except strobes now ), NOTHING. I do have some showcard and gels and some beadboard but basically NOTHING. That drives me crazy sometimes.
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29. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Bill Hunt Jun 10, 2011 9:20 AM (in response to able123)Rod,
I agree completely. Many days I miss the studio and all the "stuff," but then I think back to the $ 3500/mo. and don't feel THAT bad. I still have some "stuff," that has not been used in years, and has been moved about the country. Time for a big cleanout.
Not that long ago, I found a good charity, that needed a board room table. I happened to have a nice custom top, that was slightly used, and in great shape. They loved it, and only had to get a stand (legs and bracing) built - instant 12' x 5' board table!
Now, if I can just find someone, who needs some white cubes, studio background stands, and same white sawhorses...
Hunt
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30. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 10, 2011 12:15 PM (in response to Bill Hunt)Bill,
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but then I think back to the $ 3500/mo. and don't feel THAT bad
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HAH ! Midtown manhattan was $40/ sq ft. ( 40st between 5th and broadway area ) back in 1980... you got away EASY with that rent !
Now is probably about $125 / sq ft ?? no idea...but it's gotta be up there in the clouds....
When I think of all the years I've been fighting with "wanting" things I can't afford ( scrimping and buying little by little ) ... it becomes kinda depressing.... I don't dwell on it but sometimes I see something like "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" and I think, " hmmm, I wonder if I have the skill to blow a safe where nobody gets hurt ?? "
Just kidding of course !
ps
are the stands with a 750 pin on top riser or is it one of those "seamless paper" type things with horizontal pole that attaches to the stands ( which I have ). If 750 stud I can put strobe heads on that sorta thing....
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31. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
Bill Hunt Jun 15, 2011 8:56 AM (in response to able123)The stands that will go away are 2 x 2 wood, with 2 x 4 bases. As they were often used with seamless papers, and the like, we had a series of steel tubes drilled to fit up to .75" studs, but these had those two-headed temp nails (the ones that if you drive in to the first head, you still have about .25" of the shaft and the second head to pull out. We also used similar in little angle-drilled spots, for hanging other things.
For larger setups, we just used big Lowel stands - these were for much smaller setups, like a third seamless for little inset shots, while the main areas of the studio were for the cover shots, double-truck interior shots, or similar.
Not much to look at, and just taking up room. I also have some smaller, folding stands, with .25" studs for their own little telescoping bar. As they fold up fairly neatly, I will keep 'em a bit longer.
Hunt
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32. Re: Need help with buying background material for infinite White & Infinite Black set.
able123 Jun 15, 2011 9:38 AM (in response to Bill Hunt)hmmmm,
sounds like maybe those stands ( wood ) could be used by a local theatre company. If they put 4 casters on the bases and then put about 3-4 sandbags ( 35lb each ) on the bases....they could use them to move scenery pieces on and off stage quickly from the wings ( when scenes change )... like those flats they use with painted canvas stretched on the flats...which are fairly light in weight...
They could "join" the 2 bases with some wood and a temporary base spanning the 2 stands...for larger scenery pieces ( more than one flat stitched together resting on temp base between the stands )...know what I mean ?? The post could be used to support braces to the flats to keep them upright and so on.
those nails are called double headers ... hehe...usually 8 or 10 penny...sometimes 12 for bigger things.
We use them a lot when building trucks for location work to affix the bases of "bucks" to the floors, as the floors are usually hard oak and screws usually just break ( heads break off ) when going into that stuff.














