11 Replies Latest reply on Sep 5, 2006 9:36 AM by Newsgroup_User

    Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?

    bradyg24 Level 1
      Greetings to all,
      I am self taught in web design. I've been working some with slices in Fireworks, then exporting to DW tables.

      After having posted a couple of sites to a "critiques" board elsewhere, I have been hounded by one user due to my use of tables. He says that tables should ONLY be used for tabular data and not for layout. He says that tables result in "bloated" code.

      It seems to me that as long as your code loads quickly on 56k and up, then it shouldn't really matter if there are a few extra lines of code.

      Any opinions?
      Many thanks!
      Brady
        • 1. Re: Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?
          Level 7
          bradyg24 wrote:
          > Greetings to all,
          > I am self taught in web design. I've been working some with slices in
          > Fireworks, then exporting to DW tables.
          >
          > After having posted a couple of sites to a "critiques" board elsewhere, I have
          > been hounded by one user due to my use of tables. He says that tables should
          > ONLY be used for tabular data and not for layout. He says that tables result in
          > "bloated" code.
          >
          > It seems to me that as long as your code loads quickly on 56k and up, then it
          > shouldn't really matter if there are a few extra lines of code.
          >
          > Any opinions?
          > Many thanks!
          > Brady
          >
          You should use what you are comfortable with. There's no inherent
          reason a table's code should be more "bloated" than a page laid out with
          <div>s. (However, if you are letting fireworks write your code, it
          COULD result in code-bloat.) Having said that, it certainly would be
          good to explore laying out sites using other methods, assuming you are
          serious about webdev. A good place to start is the Quickdraw Macfly
          tutorial at wwww.projectseven.com.

          --
          Bonnie
          in California
          8 ^ )
          • 2. Re: Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?
            Level 7
            > After having posted a couple of sites to a "critiques" board elsewhere, I
            > have
            > been hounded by one user due to my use of tables. He says that tables
            > should
            > ONLY be used for tabular data and not for layout. He says that tables
            > result in
            > "bloated" code.

            This user is correct in the theoretical sense, but incorrect in the
            practical sense. For you to replace tables with other methods requires
            study, and practice. It may not be practical for you to take that plunge
            yet.

            This comment, "He says that tables should ONLY be used for tabular data" is
            typically used by zealots, who often have no real practical experience. If
            tables work best for you, then for heavens sake, use them.

            > It seems to me that as long as your code loads quickly on 56k and up, then
            > it
            > shouldn't really matter if there are a few extra lines of code.

            This is correct. The real issue is a future-looking one. In 3 years when
            your layout methods have changed, and it's been months since you've touched
            a table-based site, how easy will it be to maintain this site? The
            implication is - it's better to make the transition now, than later.

            --
            Murray --- ICQ 71997575
            Adobe Community Expert
            (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
            ==================
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            "bradyg24" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
            news:edhdg0$q60$1@forums.macromedia.com...
            > Greetings to all,
            > I am self taught in web design. I've been working some with slices in
            > Fireworks, then exporting to DW tables.
            >
            > After having posted a couple of sites to a "critiques" board elsewhere, I
            > have
            > been hounded by one user due to my use of tables. He says that tables
            > should
            > ONLY be used for tabular data and not for layout. He says that tables
            > result in
            > "bloated" code.
            >
            > It seems to me that as long as your code loads quickly on 56k and up, then
            > it
            > shouldn't really matter if there are a few extra lines of code.
            >
            > Any opinions?
            > Many thanks!
            > Brady
            >


            • 3. Re: Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?
              Level 7
              > There's no inherent reason a table's code should be more "bloated" than a
              > page laid out with <div>s.

              Sure there is. Every page must specify explicitly every table cell and
              column, all of which must be fetched from the browser. When using CSS
              methods, all that structure is placed within an external stylesheet which is
              fetched once and cached. In addition, the 'bloat' to the body content
              (i.e., what is between <body> and </body>) is significantly less in CSS
              pages than in tabled pages. But it's not an earth-shattering concern for
              most sites....

              --
              Murray --- ICQ 71997575
              Adobe Community Expert
              (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
              ==================
              http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
              http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
              http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
              http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
              ==================


              "Bonnie" <kroko@pixel[occam]plum.com> wrote in message
              news:edhdru$q1v$1@forums.macromedia.com...
              > bradyg24 wrote:
              >> Greetings to all,
              >> I am self taught in web design. I've been working some with slices in
              >> Fireworks, then exporting to DW tables.
              >>
              >> After having posted a couple of sites to a "critiques" board elsewhere,
              >> I have been hounded by one user due to my use of tables. He says that
              >> tables should ONLY be used for tabular data and not for layout. He says
              >> that tables result in "bloated" code.
              >>
              >> It seems to me that as long as your code loads quickly on 56k and up,
              >> then it shouldn't really matter if there are a few extra lines of code.
              >> Any opinions? Many thanks!
              >> Brady
              >>
              > You should use what you are comfortable with. There's no inherent reason
              > a table's code should be more "bloated" than a page laid out with <div>s.
              > (However, if you are letting fireworks write your code, it COULD result in
              > code-bloat.) Having said that, it certainly would be good to explore
              > laying out sites using other methods, assuming you are serious about
              > webdev. A good place to start is the Quickdraw Macfly tutorial at
              > wwww.projectseven.com.
              >
              > --
              > Bonnie
              > in California
              > 8 ^ )


              • 4. Re: Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?
                Level 7
                Murray *ACE* wrote:
                >> There's no inherent reason a table's code should be more "bloated" than a
                >> page laid out with <div>s.
                >
                > Sure there is. Every page must specify explicitly every table cell and
                > column, all of which must be fetched from the browser. When using CSS
                > methods, all that structure is placed within an external stylesheet which is
                > fetched once and cached. In addition, the 'bloat' to the body content
                > (i.e., what is between <body> and </body>) is significantly less in CSS
                > pages than in tabled pages. But it's not an earth-shattering concern for
                > most sites....
                >
                But you can style your table using css; non?

                --
                Bonnie
                in California
                8 ^ )
                • 5. Re: Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?
                  Level 7
                  Sure. That's not the issue. Each page has a miasma of <table>, <td>, <tr>,
                  width=..., cellspacing=.., etc. scattered about. This must be downloaded
                  with every page. It's all structural.

                  There's none of that in a CSS layout page....

                  --
                  Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                  Adobe Community Expert
                  (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                  ==================
                  http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
                  http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                  http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                  http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
                  ==================


                  "Bonnie" <kroko@pixel[occam]plum.com> wrote in message
                  news:edhghb$q1v$4@forums.macromedia.com...
                  > Murray *ACE* wrote:
                  >>> There's no inherent reason a table's code should be more "bloated" than
                  >>> a page laid out with <div>s.
                  >>
                  >> Sure there is. Every page must specify explicitly every table cell and
                  >> column, all of which must be fetched from the browser. When using CSS
                  >> methods, all that structure is placed within an external stylesheet which
                  >> is fetched once and cached. In addition, the 'bloat' to the body content
                  >> (i.e., what is between <body> and </body>) is significantly less in CSS
                  >> pages than in tabled pages. But it's not an earth-shattering concern for
                  >> most sites....
                  >>
                  > But you can style your table using css; non?
                  >
                  > --
                  > Bonnie
                  > in California
                  > 8 ^ )


                  • 6. Re: Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?
                    Level 7
                    Murray *ACE* wrote:
                    > Sure. That's not the issue. Each page has a miasma of <table>, <td>, <tr>,
                    > width=..., cellspacing=.., etc. scattered about. This must be downloaded
                    > with every page. It's all structural.
                    >
                    > There's none of that in a CSS layout page....
                    >
                    Ah, good point. Still, as you say, if it's well done it shouldn't be a
                    big issue. I mean, header, left or right nav, content, footer isn't
                    going to be a big load either way. It's also possible to run with css
                    scissors and create an unnecessarily huge file.

                    --
                    Bonnie
                    in California
                    8 ^ )
                    • 7. Re: Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?
                      Level 7
                      Sure - just use the FW pop-up menus.....

                      --
                      Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                      Adobe Community Expert
                      (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                      ==================
                      http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
                      http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                      http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                      http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
                      ==================


                      "Bonnie" <kroko@pixel[occam]plum.com> wrote in message
                      news:edhkf0$4n1$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                      > Murray *ACE* wrote:
                      >> Sure. That's not the issue. Each page has a miasma of <table>, <td>,
                      >> <tr>, width=..., cellspacing=.., etc. scattered about. This must be
                      >> downloaded with every page. It's all structural.
                      >>
                      >> There's none of that in a CSS layout page....
                      >>
                      > Ah, good point. Still, as you say, if it's well done it shouldn't be a
                      > big issue. I mean, header, left or right nav, content, footer isn't
                      > going to be a big load either way. It's also possible to run with css
                      > scissors and create an unnecessarily huge file.
                      >
                      > --
                      > Bonnie
                      > in California
                      > 8 ^ )


                      • 8. Re: Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?
                        bradyg24 Level 1
                        Thank you Bonnie and Murray for all of your replies!

                        If I am reading you correctly, the biggest advantage to CSS layout is not in the first page that loads, but in the 2nd, 3rd, etc pages that load that use the same stylesheet? Is that fair to say?

                        Also, Murray, in your last post were you indicating that FW pop-up menus result in unnecessarily huge files? Can you suggest a good alternative to FW for pop-up menus? I need to consolidate a menu on my wife's site, and was planning to use FW.

                        Thanks again!
                        Brady
                        • 9. Re: Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?
                          Level 7
                          Not Murray, but I think he'll agree that you can't go far wrong with these
                          guys

                          http://www.projectseven.com/index.htm

                          Free and paid for solutions.

                          Peter
                          "bradyg24" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                          news:edjip7$cfj$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                          | Thank you Bonnie and Murray for all of your replies!
                          |
                          | If I am reading you correctly, the biggest advantage to CSS layout is not
                          in
                          | the first page that loads, but in the 2nd, 3rd, etc pages that load that
                          use
                          | the same stylesheet? Is that fair to say?
                          |
                          | Also, Murray, in your last post were you indicating that FW pop-up menus
                          | result in unnecessarily huge files? Can you suggest a good alternative to
                          FW
                          | for pop-up menus? I need to consolidate a menu on my wife's site, and was
                          | planning to use FW.
                          |
                          | Thanks again!
                          | Brady
                          |


                          • 10. Re: Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?
                            Level 7
                            > If I am reading you correctly, the biggest advantage to CSS layout is not
                            > in
                            > the first page that loads, but in the 2nd, 3rd, etc pages that load that
                            > use
                            > the same stylesheet? Is that fair to say?

                            It's fair to say that that is only one of the advantages, yes.

                            > Can you suggest a good alternative to FW
                            > for pop-up menus?

                            I was hoping you'd ask.

                            Check the uberlink and MacFly tutorials at PVII
                            ( http://www.projectseven.com/)

                            and the Navbar tutorial/articles at Thierry's place
                            ( http://tjkdesign.com/navbars/)

                            Or to get it done fast, go here -

                            http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/navigation/auto_hide/index.htm

                            --
                            Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                            Adobe Community Expert
                            (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                            ==================
                            http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
                            http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                            http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                            http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
                            ==================


                            "bradyg24" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                            news:edjip7$cfj$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                            > Thank you Bonnie and Murray for all of your replies!
                            >
                            >
                            > Also, Murray, in your last post were you indicating that FW pop-up menus
                            > result in unnecessarily huge files? Can you suggest a good alternative to
                            > FW
                            > for pop-up menus? I need to consolidate a menu on my wife's site, and was
                            > planning to use FW.
                            >
                            > Thanks again!
                            > Brady
                            >


                            • 11. Re: Slices and Tables.. Is there another way?
                              Level 7
                              Yes, I agree.

                              --
                              Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                              Adobe Community Expert
                              (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                              ==================
                              http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
                              http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                              http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                              http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
                              ==================


                              "PJR" <flash@SLICEreclusivebillionaire.com> wrote in message
                              news:edjj1o$csh$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                              > Not Murray, but I think he'll agree that you can't go far wrong with these
                              > guys
                              >
                              > http://www.projectseven.com/index.htm
                              >
                              > Free and paid for solutions.
                              >
                              > Peter
                              > "bradyg24" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                              > news:edjip7$cfj$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                              > | Thank you Bonnie and Murray for all of your replies!
                              > |
                              > | If I am reading you correctly, the biggest advantage to CSS layout is
                              > not
                              > in
                              > | the first page that loads, but in the 2nd, 3rd, etc pages that load that
                              > use
                              > | the same stylesheet? Is that fair to say?
                              > |
                              > | Also, Murray, in your last post were you indicating that FW pop-up menus
                              > | result in unnecessarily huge files? Can you suggest a good alternative
                              > to
                              > FW
                              > | for pop-up menus? I need to consolidate a menu on my wife's site, and
                              > was
                              > | planning to use FW.
                              > |
                              > | Thanks again!
                              > | Brady
                              > |
                              >
                              >